Armstrong drops fight against doping charges

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Bartelby, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    A "jury of one's peers" is a basic right of defendants, where a peer means an equal.

    Their comments are relevant because those 3 riders (Merckx, Hinault, Indurain) are in a sense his only equals alive. It's the truest "jury of his peers" you can find today.

    The low peons among cyclists who are ready to accuse him and throw him under the bus are commensurately less trustworthy, because much more susceptible to the corroding effects of envy, spite, resentment, greed, coercive submission and other abject passions.
     
  2. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    Okay, if that's your reasoning for posting their comments, how about sharing with the rest of the readers, the comments and stories from a certain Greg Lemond.
     
  3. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    It's common knowledge that Lemond and Armstrong have disliked eachother for many years, so what's his schadenfreude going to suddenly prove?
    Please read again and read carefully and slowly what Indurain and Merckx are saying. Less than championing Armstrong, they are condemning the Orwellian character of USADA.
     
  4. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    It's not suppose to prove anything...That was my point, because I was stating that copy/pasting comments from those cycling greats was pointless.
     
  5. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]

    Obviously, it's not pointless. Merckx and Indurain are giving more insight that USADA is unfit to carry out its obligation.

    But Lemond and Armstrong have had a bitter relationship for many years so it's expected that he is to side against Armstrong no matter what.
     
  6. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Hamilton: Lance supplied PED before 1999 Tour

    AUSTIN, Texas (AP) -- Tyler Hamilton says Lance Armstrong gave him an illegal blood booster at his house before the 1999 Tour de France and the two teammates compared notes on using performance-enhancing drugs as far back as 1998.

    Hamilton makes the allegations in his book, The Secret Race. Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France, Doping, Cover-ups and Winning at All Costs, set to be published Sept. 5. The Associated Press purchased a copy Thursday. Armstrong agent Bill Stapleton did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

    Hamilton and Armstrong rode together on the U.S. Postal Service team.

    Armstrong has long denied doping but last week chose not to fight drug charges made by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. USADA has erased 14 years of Armstrong's competitive results, including his seven Tour de France titles.

    The book mirrors much of what Hamilton told 60 Minutes in 2011 and what he said he told federal criminal investigators looking into doping allegations on the Postal Service team. Officials closed that investigation in February without bringing any charges against Armstrong.

    Hamilton details his own drug use and says usage on the team started even before Armstrong joined in 1998. He and Armstrong soon became roommates and confidants who would discuss using the blood-booster EPO and other performance-enhancing drugs.

    He said while visiting Armstrong's home in Nice shortly before the 1999 Tour, he asked the Texan if he had any EPO and Armstrong pointed to the refrigerator.

    Hamilton described a doping plan put in place by the team for the 1999 Tour de France, with Armstrong's knowledge, that included a motorcyclist riding behind racers with a thermos full of EPO. It was to be dispensed to riders in the team camper after race stages.

    He said team leaders, doctors and mangers encouraged and supervised doping and performance-enhancing drugs were handed out to cyclists in white lunch bags.

    Armstrong has previously sought to discredit Hamilton as a drug cheat who was twice banned for doping and was recently stripped of his 2004 Olympic gold medal.

    According to USADA, Hamilton is among its key witnesses ready to testify against Armstrong. In all, it said as many as 10 former teammates were ready to do so. The agency has withheld most of their names, saying it feared Armstrong would try to intimidate them.


    Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20120830/armstrong-hamilton-doping-book/#ixzz255wEFbPb

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mo...-hamilton-doping-book/?sct=hp_t2_a8&eref=sihp
     
  7. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Ha ha! Lance doesn't even deny doping anymore. He simply denies having gained an "unfair advantage," ie everyone was doping along with him:


    Sometimes it’s the stuff they don’t say that rings loudest.

    Lance Armstrong has always said he won his seven Tours as a squeaky clean athlete. He claimed he did not use cheater gambits like red blood cell transfusion, EPO, human growth hormone, testosterone, steroids, or any of the banned performance enhancing drugs rife in professional cycling. Armstrong also said he was tested more than any other athlete in the world — more than 500 times. (Maybe not: There has never been any independent verification of Armstrong’s “500 times” tested claim. The source of that unrealistic number — once a week for 10 years? Really? — was always Armstrong, just Armstrong.)

    Yesterday, Armstrong didn’t say any of that. No claims that he never doped. No claims of being the most tested athlete in history.

    Armstrong used different words yesterday. He said he used no “unfair advantage” during his career.

    Wow — huge shift, that. Armstrong knew the hammer was about to fall
    on him hard. If he had chosen to arbitrate the charges against him put forward by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, the evidence against him would have come out. The strongest of that evidence is the eyewitness testimony from more than 10 ex-teammates and employees.

    Let’s pause. Some will protest that eyewitness testimony is hearsay, vendetta, not real evidence. Sorry, it is hard evidence when it is given under oath. Eyewitness testimony under oath is enough to convict someone of murder. The ******* Jerry Sandusky is in prison because of eyewitness testimony, not DNA or other “facts.” Let us remember that false testimony is called perjury, a felony. Jail time. Most people won’t perjure themselves for a vendetta. Do you seriously believe that 10 people who worked closely with Armstrong would perjure themselves and risk jail out of mere jealousy towards Armstrong? That is Armstrong’s claim, but it makes no sense.

    Armstrong was going down hard and he knew it. He quit his fight with the USADA to keep the evidence — that testimony from ex-teammates and employees — from seeing the light of day. More on this in a minute.

    In claiming he had no “unfair advantage” Armstrong has opened the door, a wee bit, to a full doping admission. Yes, Armstrong doped. Everyone with an IQ higher than a tomato knows it. Moreover, Armstrong knows that everyone knows. He is therefore, starting yesterday, laying down the foundation for a new narrative that he hopes will cast him in a positive light. It goes like this: Yes I doped. But they all doped. Fact is, I still worked harder and smarter than any pro cyclist. I won on a level playing field.

    If that was the sum of Armstrong’s doping confession — I doped, but so did everyone; I won on a level playing field — he might have a point. Armstrong didn’t start the age of super bio doping — mostly this is blood boosting that gives cyclists a 5% to 7% performance edge in mountain climbs, but it is also human growth hormone, artificial testosterone and the like. This bad stuff started in the early 1990s. It was not Armstrong’s fault that his peak years as an athlete coincided with cycling’s peak doping years. Bad luck for him.

    That creates some sympathy for Armstrong’s doping. He knows it — Armstrong is extremely savvy about marketing and PR — and he is trying to prepare his fans for larger confessions with his “no unfair advantage” comment.

    Here I think of the movie, The Sting. Paul Newman and Robert Redford were the good guys. Why? They cheated the cheater. Beat him at his own game. Armstrong, with Thursday’s statement, is positioning his fans to believe that he only cheated the cheaters — the rotten Germans, Italians, Spaniards, whatever. Armstrong thus becomes a bad-ass American folk hero, a Robin Hood in stars and stripes, if you like.

    Will this ploy work? It might if that is the whole story. But the story does not end there. It’s a fact that Armstrong donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to the anti-doping efforts of cycling’s governing body, the Union Cycliste Internationale, during his pro years. Armstrong was the only cyclist to do so. He’s the only pro athlete of any sport to donate money to a regulating body. The conflict of interest is both stunning and appalling. It begs discussion at least.
     
  8. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    But if they introduce false testimony, they open themselves up to charges of perjury, defamation and libel. And as "low peons," they would not be very well situated financially to fight such legal battles. But they are speaking up nonetheless.

    You, like lance, should've quite while you were ahead. :)
     
  9. LanEvo

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    This won't be a first, now many others will be jumping on the money train for this with a book deal...
     
  10. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    You're right, they must all be making this up for a book deal at lance's expense. Poor lance! The entire world is out to get him! It's a conspiracy perpetrated against him by mcgraw hill!
     
  11. Benhur

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    This may take a while if UCI appeals. USADA has not yet forwarded the case to UCI. They say they will do so in the "coming weeks." Then, once UCI receives USADA's report, it has 21 days to appeal to CAS in Switzerland. After this 21 day period, WADA has another 21 days to appeal.

    The CAS decision can still be appealed to the Swiss Federal Tribunal.
     
  12. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, that his a quite legalistic twist to his usual defence which admits nothing without lying. He's been well trained to say just the right (clever) thing.




     
  13. Benhur

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    In other news, the French Cycling Federation (FFC) is proposing that if USADA's decision is upheld, the Tour titles be vacated (not given to anyone) in order to avoid controversy due to the doping histories of the potential recipients. If the titles are transferred, the winners would be: Zülle (1999), Ullrich (2000, 2001 and 2003), Beloki (2002), Klöden (2004) and Basso (2005). All five of them have been involved in doping cases.

    So, as someone put it in a comment elsewhere, if Armstrong wasn't doping, he beat a bunch of dopers. And if he was doping, he STILL beat a bunch of dopers. No matter how you cut it, he won those Tours because he was the best rider.

    We may also wonder, if Armstong's title's are vacated, why shouldn't the second-place spots of those riders be vacated as well?

    If these organizations were really serious in "cleaning up" and consistent in their methods, they would have to vacate most podium spots for the last few decades.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
  14. Raphael

    Raphael Semi-Pro

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    A doctor who treated me while I lived in Paris was the chief medical officer for the French indoor cycling team when Lance first came to France to train. After retiring from that post and just maintaining a private practice, he told me after Lance's first Tour de France win, "US Postal....they must have VERY good doctors.."

    I applaud anybody who beats cancer and can raise money to help others do likewise. But that doesn't change the fact that a guy who wasn't "caught" with a positive test was somehow going significantly faster than cyclists who WERE caught. Doesn't that seem suspicious??
     
  15. fundrazer

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    But you can't claim that all doping is equal. Raphael just said it in the post above mine! Lance had the entire US Postal squad doping. Chances are their procedures may have been more advanced than other squads. It also helps Lance when all of his domestiquess are doped to the gills.
     
  16. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You've got to wonder whether his whole fund raising activities were not now a case of 'reputation laundering'.
     
  17. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    They were so advanced, no one has ever been able to find anything in any blood or urine sample Lance has ever given. Even to this day.
     
  18. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    This article is from late June and gives some interesting details on the nature of the USADA.

    Travis Tygart Plays Prosecutor, Jury and Judge in Lance Armstrong Case
    http://www.xtri.com/features/detail/284-itemId.511714298.html


    This one from a few days ago is openly conspiratorial and suggests the cancer and pharma industries may not be happy with the success of Armstrongs organization (livestrong.org) and with a new book coming up.
    http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=520

    I am not familiar enough with livestrong.org to comment on its impact or its potential to bother those industries, but I certainly would not put any thing past the pharmaceutical industry. During the swine flu scare I watched an astonishing documentary about the history of this industry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxyVK3pAiQQ
     
  19. El Diablo

    El Diablo Hall of Fame

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    ^^ ummm, I read the article from stateofthenation you cite and there isn't a single sentence in it indicating a bit of evidence that the pharmaceutical industry was in any way unhappy with, or even had an opinion about, Lance Armstrong. Suggesting so is slanderous and intellectual sociopathy. The article SPECULATES that the industry PROBABLY didn't like what Armstrong was doing. Oh.
     
  20. Benhur

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    Of course it does not provide any evidence, nor did I say it did. I said it “suggested” that those industries “may not be happy”.

    Making such suggestions, however, is hardly a case of slanderous “sociopathy,” in view of the known behavior of those industries. Sociopathy is a central essential characteristic of the pharmaceutical industry, not of those who remind you of it.

    The youtube documentary I linked moves along a bit slowly, but there is an amazing amount of revolting information regarding these industries (especially after the 50 minute mark or so).
     
  21. El Diablo

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    Innuendo is scurrilous, repeating it is no better. Making the suggestion that Armstrong is disliked by pharma "in view of the known behavior of those industries" is indeed intellectual sociopathy. If one has no idea how an industry regards an individual, one should merely shut up. Attributing qualities to persons or groups without actual information is how demagogues and Fuhrers function.
     
  22. fundrazer

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  23. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Aside from benhur trolling desperately, this thread is finished. Lance has already admitted to doping ie he doesn't deny doping, only denying that he gained an "unfair advantage" by doping.
     
  24. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    I agree. I feel bad for the people who wanted to believe. But at this point they just look like suckers.

    PS - you're 'McGraw Hill conspiracy' line was awesome! :)
     
  25. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    I don't really blame the people who believe/d in Lance. It's not so much the person, but the idea of an invincible sports hero, and later a selfless health guru that people wanted to believe in.

    It just shows you how twisted armstrong really is--took many millions of people for a ride, no pun intended.

    Believe in yourself, mate.
     
  26. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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  27. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    I never believed he didn't dope, any more than I believe Arnold Swartzenegger didn't.
    What is unfair, however, is that everyone knew he did, everyone knew everyone else did - even the officials, as stated in the article above, yet he was set up to be a target years later. If they take away his titles, who would they give them to that didn't dope? It wasn't an unfair advantage.

    They need to get much more accurate testing and start fresh - not go back to the past and pick on specific individuals.
    Maybe even go to doping and non-doping divisions, where the non-doping criteria are so tight that it would be possible to test positive without doping. (of course, knowing this, it wouldn't be a lifetime ban, but some suspension time as a punishment)
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
  28. fps

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    They should put an asterisk next to his name. And it IS important to go back to the past and pick on individuals, especially if they are legends of the sport and have been found to be cheats. The blood is held for several years I believe, for the reason that when the testers finally catch up, they can then check whether the cyclists were taking what they finally know they may have been taking.
     
  29. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    RUBBISH. He DID receive an unfair advantage. Read the article linked directly above. Armstrong's doping was YEARS ahead of his teammates.' He was able to both cycle more efficiently and more effectively evade testing.

    Also, his claim that he passed "500" tests is completely unsubstantiated. It's a number he pulled out of his a--, yet people still believe him.

    I agree that in principle that everyone should be held accountable but with over $100 million in prizes from cycling and endorsements as a result of his cheating, it stands to reason that Lance will be held to the higher standard.

     
  30. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Lance is a DOPE!!
     
  31. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Livestrong

    LoL
     
  32. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    Yes, that's really the big issue here. People are missing the forest for the trees when they keep the spotlight on Armstrong while failing to see or address the flaws of PED testing or the shady tactics of the USADA.

    But you're a bit off when you say unequivocally that Armstrong didn't gain an unfair advantage. No outsider can claim to know (yet) the real answer, despite what the gullible know-nothings think they know.
     
  33. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Take a look at the article linked. Hamilton, Armstrong's teammate, fully documents the advanced cheating techniques and PED's Lance took. Hamilton was in the know as much as anyone. 9 other teammates were and are prepared to testify against Lance as well.

    I have no issue with Lance being targeted. He took cheating to it's absolute state of the art limit. He also benefited disproportionately as well, with a career income of over $100 million, based completely on his supposed superiority as a cyclist (more like his superiority in getting designer PED's).

    Lance got off easy. He didn't have to return a dime of earnings from the tours he won by cheating. In principle, he should be forced to return ALL prize winnings, with interest.
     
  34. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    Tyler Hamilton actually did fail multiple drug tests. And was apparently fired from the US Postal team back in the day. And on top of that he's apparently releasing a book about the whole thing.

    Not exactly an unbiased source. Tyler has every reason in the world to make **** up about Lance.
     
  35. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    And he faces defamation and libel charges if he made up ****. Interesting that 9 more of Lance's teammates who would also face similar legal charges, including jail time and a mountain of legal fees are all lined up to testify against him.

    As is Lance's masseuse. These people have everything to lose and nothing to gain in the face of Lance's hundreds of millions of dollars and legal team.

    Plus, you're forgetting something very simple. Lance no longer denies doping. He only denies an "unfair advantage" from doping. And that's also a lie, as Tyler and every last one of Lance's teammates has pointed out.
     
  36. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    There's no way Lance or any other cyclist could ever prove that statements like that are lies. The chances of winning a defamation lawsuit against Hamilton are pretty much zero.

    The risk/reward to making it all up are heavily, heavily in favor of reward for Hamilton to make it up (assuming he is making it up).

    These people have nothing to lose. Nothing at all. And a lot to gain. Hamilton has already failed drug tests and wants to drum up publicity for a book. What's the masseuse got to lose?
     
  37. FastFreddy

    FastFreddy Semi-Pro

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    Lance is a cheater, he will be in HELL!
     
  38. fundrazer

    fundrazer Hall of Fame

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    Glad someone is continuing the fight against Pharmstrong in this thread. The thing some of the defenders don't understand, so many former Postal riders have come out and stated that they were dopers. Many of these same riders also have NEVER tested positive. Their doping programs are way ahead of the drug tests. At the same time you have guys like Johan Bruyneel claiming that no doping was going on with the team...

    Also, I actually just picked up Tyler's book today. First book I'll be reading in a long while.
     
  39. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    I agree completely. Lance CAN'T prove his teammates are lying. Because they are telling the truth. And yes, his chances of winning a lawsuit are zero, again, because his teammates are telling the truth.

    Lance's masseuse was terrified and harassed by Lance's legal team for years on end. She knew she would be facing this type of harassment but came forward anyway.

    Tyler will get paid a standard rate by his publisher. But please, Lance himself has acknowledged he is a doper. Even Lance is not as delusional as you are. :)

    And yes, Santa Claus is fake.
     
  40. Avles

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    But it's not just Hamilton. It's not just the masseuse. Like the Outside article says:

    So there are 9 sources who corroborate and verify Hamilton's account.

    Seriously Jonnythan. You actually believe that all 9 of these sources are just making stuff up? You think they've all gotten together to lynch Armstrong because... well, why exactly? Are they going to be splitting that book deal money?

    C'mon... Plausible deniability only goes so far.
     
  41. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    There's always a "new" defender of Lance in this thread. Namely, someone who hasn't taken the time to actually read the articles posted which document the evidence against him in excruciating, clinical detail.

    These are actual conversations, names, dates, doctors, methods of cheating, the cheating hierarchy, code names, code words, all of it.

    And then there is Lance himself who has publicly stated, ON THE RECORD, that he dopes.

    Despite all of this, there is ALWAYS some ignoramus who will try to defend Lance even though Lance himself admits he's a doper.

    Truly, this is the stuff and nitty gritty of cults, religions and mass media brainwashing.
     
  42. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    You pretend there's mountains of evidence. All the "evidence" consist of people with conflicting interests saying "yeah he doped."

    None of these doping agencies have ever been able to produce a single sample of blood or urine that shows doping. Ever. Not once. If he's such a big doper who was doping all the time like all these other people who failed drug tests, it should be trivial to pull out an old sample and show us how it's tainted.

    OK, I admit that it's possible Lance doped. But this statement is just... dumb.
     
  43. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    The only person who's dumb is the a-- clown who continues to defend Lance after Lance has admitted he's a doper. Give it up, Lance himself has conceded defeat many times over.

    Also, USADA has positive samples. Here are the facts:

    1. lance does not deny doping, in effect, admitting to doping

    2. hamilton details a doping hierarchy, with lance receiving the highest quality and the most undetectable.

    3. usada has positive samples.

    4. 10 former teammates are ready to testify against lance, among many others.

    Seriously, only a complete moron would continue to defend lance at this point.
     
  44. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    The real problem here is the degree to which you've been brainwashed. You believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus also I take it. Or pro wrestling. Or that Jim Jones is god reincarnated. It's time to wake up.

    Lance finishes at the back of the peloton in mountain stages without EPO and steroids.

     
  45. firefox

    firefox Semi-Pro

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    so... anyone here tried EPO? I feel I could really benefit from a dose of EPO.
     
  46. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Seriously, stop talking out of your a--. USADA is in possession of MULTIPLE positive samples. You ask for the evidence in rhetorical fashion, too dumb to realize it's all there. You're just afraid to actually read the articles which document all of it. Ignorance is bliss.

     
  47. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    People really demonized Barry Bonds and made him into a villain. Everyone seemed to agree he was doping. Look at the evidence against him. Now look at the mountains of evidence against Lance. It's interesting people are so quick to defend Armstrong, given the mountains of evidence. Just shows you how in life, people's perception are often divorced from the reality in front of them.

    Both Bonds and Armstrong made Faustian bargains, in an effort to be the very best, but fans see Bonds as a villain, and Armstrong as a hero.

    Armstrong was clearly part of a systematic program, which involved pressuring his teammates to dope, and involving many others in the cover up.
     
  48. NonP

    NonP Professional

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    Let's see, so one is to think that this article, a glowing review of the latest "tell-all" book written by Armstrong's estranged teammate with a contributing editor to the same magazine where the article's author is employed, is the be-all and end-all of the Armstrong saga. Yeah, makes sense.

    You shouldn't assume somebody is uninformed just because he doesn't agree with you. Some of us are actually capable of critical thinking.

    I've made my position on the Armstrong issue clear: the guy most likely doped, but unless the authorities can produce a positive sample he should be allowed to keep his trophies. This shouldn't be too hard if the USADA is already in possession of such samples. And when I say "positive sample" I mean one that can in fact convict, not just accuse or incriminate. Not the kind that prompted one of their own Christiane Ayotte to question the ethics and methodology of its testing, nor the one that forces them to declare that the test results are merely "consistent" with doping.
     
  49. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    There are three samples that were presented to Armstrong as a part of a much larger case with eyewitness testimony.

    He refused to challenge this publicly, so he was ruled a cheat.

    Apparently, the dossier will be made public in some form but it has been presented to Armstrong and his decision was not to challenge the evidence.
     
  50. jonnythan

    jonnythan Professional

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    If Lance has admitted he's a doper, I'll eat my shoes live on webcam.

    I'm being reasonable. You, however, are lying.
     

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