Ashaway 100% Zyex monofilament

Discussion in 'Strings' started by corners, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. julianashaway

    julianashaway Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    Interesting Torres! It could be that it takes a "better" player to control this string in the full bed. Or, at least a different mind-set. So many players are used to that bash, bash, bash mentality with Poly. With ZX, just concentrate on making good strokes and let the racket, string, and ball do the work.
     
  2. Dimcorner

    Dimcorner Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    814
    I'm going to have to try this string. I'm a big fan of the Ashaway ZM65's on my badminton racquets!
     
  3. julianashaway

    julianashaway Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    Good to hear!

    I would recommend reading this thread and the playtest thread before stringing up a racquet. There is a lot of communal knowledge being put together here. This is a very different string and getting it into your racquet properly could make or break your impression. Now the safest recommendation seems to be to use the 16 gauge at 56-58 lbs.
     
  4. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,540
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Torres I believe is also around my level and age. I was surprised with the comments regarding uneven feelings around the string bed since I did not experience that at all.

    What have your tension loss experiments shown with ZX? I forgot to measure my set with RacquetTune. Speaking of that app, I wonder if anyone reading has calculated a custom string factor for this string?
     
  5. fgs

    fgs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,355
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    mikeler,

    i don't think this string has an uneven response on offcentershots, i just think that it reacts completely different and obviously unexpected - coming from polys or multis. i think that there is a much smaller powerloss from the sweetspot outwards than with poly or even multis, so that in the end, when you have not set up properly and made a decent contact with the ball, the ball will still be launched off the stick with much more power than one was used to.

    that's why i somewhere mentioned (this or the other monogut thread) that poly is more "forgiving", because you can still somehow control those offcentershots, while the mgzx is simply "unforgiving" in this respect. from my roughly 12 hitting hours with this string so far (8 with 21kg and 4 with the second set strung at 22kg) i came to the conclusion that i can pretty much control the string provided i'm on a good day regarding my footwork. if i set up properly, i have no control issues, if i set up poorly, the ball is all over the place.
     
  6. PBODY99

    PBODY99 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    3,195
    Thank You ASHWAY

    ZMG works as a cross for the 5.0 player who breaks the cross in a poly-hybrid,the Lux broke each time.{Wheat 1.27}
    The 1.22 red does need to be strung higher, but I think I'll just stick to carrying the 1.27 wheat.
    My 4G/1.27ZMG gave me 30 court hours before it became a bit to lively.
    Granted I use an OS 110 and Continental FH,Eastern 1h Backhand, so my game is different from most posters here.
    I was not a part of the play test here, but as a Dynamite user, I tried this string starting last fall.
     
  7. julianashaway

    julianashaway Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    30 hours with Poly mains, wow! At what tension do you string the ZX? What do you think about the idea of ZX mains with Dynamite crosses?
     
  8. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,540
    Location:
    Central Florida
    That could be an interesting experiment but I think the Dynamite might still break too quickly for more advanced players.
     
  9. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    I would think the dynamite crosses would get shredded by the relatively slick ZX mains. Dynamite would be better in the mains, in my opinion. TWU testing showed that Dyanamite is among the very highest in terms of ball/string friction. If useful anywhere, high ball/string friction is useful in the mains. And Dynamite mains might be able to slide pretty well on the ZX crosses.

    Julian, do you know why Dynamite is such a low-powered string? I've heard people say this, but have never really believed it because the stiffness numbers are so low. But Dynamite 17 was shown to be even lower-powered than many copoly strings in this paper. (See section 2B4) (It's also noteworthy that Dyanmite 17 produced the least spin of any string. Noteworthy because Dynamite has very high ball/string friction and also very high inter-string friction.)

    It's interesting that ZX is not being described by anyone as being "low-powered." Quite the opposite, and yet the stiffness and energy return data at TWU is quite similar for ZX and Dynamite.
     
  10. julianashaway

    julianashaway Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    I don't understand why Dynamite is ranked so low in power in this paper. Lack of power is certainly not the reason not to play the string (lack of durability certainly could be). TW actually has it ranked quite high in power in the string finder.

    The spin potential of the string is good especially in combination with its other positive attributes (power, control, arm friendliness). I believe the reason the ball to string friction doesn't translate to massive spin potential is because it is a soft braided multifilament as opposed to a hard monofilament.
     
  11. julianashaway

    julianashaway Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    145
     
  12. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    Wiescannon B5E17 / Red ZX16
    Donnay P1 97/16x19 @ 340g @ 51/53 CP


    This playtest reminded me of why I don't like B5E and why, if you're going to use ZX as a cross, use with a poly that you like.

    B5E dominates the feel of the stringbed. I find it a stiffish, low powered, dead(ish) string, that makes it difficult to feel the ball. It's not super stiff but it is stiffish and what I find odd about it is that it has a hint of spring to it but its not an elastic string like BHB7. For me it doesn't have the range of characteristics that Black Magic does. I find to hard to feel the ball well enough with B5E to play touch shots, drop shots etc. It's as if you're having to guess how the ball is going to come off the strings with anything delicate rather than the feeling the ball. The ZX added power and softened the stringbed slightly but the B5E still dominates the feel of the stringbed at this tension in this stick.

    I've previously played with B5E/Gosen Synthetic Gut in a APDC and the B5E felt slightly better in that, probably because of the bigger headsize and more open pattern. In this stick and at this tension, it felt too stiff and dead for my liking. Not for me but those who like B5E will probably also like B5E/ZX. In the Donnay P1, I preferred Black Magic or Yonex PTP mains with ZX crosses. Although both Black Magic and PTP don't last very long before going dead, they felt as if they meshed better when fresh with ZX and more suitable in this type of stick/tension.

    Next up: Wilson Natural Gut 16 / Wheat ZX 16 @ 60/56 CP.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  13. bad_call

    bad_call Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Messages:
    5,420
    this is exactly why i questioned your use of B5E (not your cup of tea) instead of a fave or yours BHBR. why did you think this combo would be a good choice for you?
     
  14. SJSA

    SJSA Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    565
    Location:
    Where Nike is
    I am waiting for your next up.
     
  15. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    I am finding that the Red and the Wheat are two very different strings when used as crosses with kevlar mains.

    The kevlar mains slide freely and smoothly over the red crosses, but they start and stop in a crunchy motion when moving over the wheat. I'm regretting my decision to buy a reel of wheat, wrongly assuming it was the same as the red, without testing it first.
     
  16. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    I try all sorts of strings to see what they're actually like. Besides, I've got to get rid of the remnants of this B5E reel. BHBR would be too springy with ZX.
     
  17. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    That sucks Trav. But thanks for letting us know. I was about to buy three packs of wheat.
     
  18. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    I think the red dye must be incorporated in a substance that acts like a solid lubricant. It also made the string more soft and crushable (more poly-like) in the in the pliers crush/dent test.
     
  19. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Interesting.

    And if kevlar mains aren't sliding on wheat ZX crosses, it's unlikely gut mains would. That may account for the reports of "lots of string movement" with gut mains/ZX crosses. Although tensions too low are also probably a factor.
     
  20. maxpotapov

    maxpotapov Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,518
    Location:
    Ukraine
    OK so it's a bad idea to waste 1/2 set of Wilson Natural Gut for ZX wheat hybrid?
    Should I buy red instead? I need that snap back, I don't want mains sticking to ZX crosses
     
  21. maxpotapov

    maxpotapov Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,518
    Location:
    Ukraine
    Exactly how I feel about B5E! Now, waiting for your next review...
     
  22. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,540
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Thanks for the review. B5E is just not for you since you have tried it both full bed and hybrid. This does not mean I won't try this setup. I just need to get on TW and purchase a few sets of the Red. Enough to get the free shipping...
     
  23. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    I think if you like B5E, you'll also like B5E/ZX. I suspect B5E works better in a stick with a more open pattern or where you can brush the back of the ball more.
     
  24. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,540
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Which is exactly what I use with a 100 square inch, 16x18 whippy racket.
     
  25. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    I've got a set of Pacific Classic ready for ZX crosses and I'm going to go out of my way to get the red Pro.
     
  26. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    I think there's probably some truth in that.

    B5E was effective when I strung it as a full bed in a 6.1 95 Team (despite the 18x20 pattern). I didn't like the feel of it, but because the stick is so light, you can really whip up on the back of the ball. Neither the stick nor the string has enough power to really allow you to hit through the court, but the upside was that it was practically impossible to hit the ball out. If you like moving your opponent around and having your UEs drop to practically nothing....

    6.1 95 18x20 (normal / heavy version), B5 didn't really jive for me. I didn't really like it either in the BLX JP 96/16x20 or Donnay P1 @ 340g 16x19, all of which I would describe as heavier beefy sticks, rather than whippy. I really didn't like trying to drive the ball with this string.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2013
  27. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    Train wreck coming! LOL

    I will never mix natural gut and ZX again. If I do anything with my ZX half set it will be with a poly or low powered multi.
     
  28. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Ramon, when you did gut/ZX were you using the natural or red-colored ZX?
     
  29. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    ^ Unless you're planning to string at a super high tension, I'd be tempted to give the 1.22 a swerve as I suspect it may be too lively or springy to keep those gut mains in check.

    That said, I would be curious to hear how that 1.22 play plays with gut.....
     
  30. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    Natural 1.27. I still have a half set and trying to decide what to do with it.
     
  31. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Yeah, you might be right. Or wrong, or both... :)
     
  32. Jacklondon00

    Jacklondon00 New User

    Joined:
    May 4, 2012
    Messages:
    82
    That's also how I found the natural zx, exchanged it for red pro, but won't be able to test it with gut and kevlar until July.

    Can't believe the two "same" strings act so differently.
     
  33. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Jack, I found your posts about experiments with very thin (Dyneema fishing line, if I recall) cross strings yesterday. Very interesting. Do you have a sense that the 16g red would be better than the 17g red pro in the crosses with gut or kevlar mains?

    Regarding your observations with very thin crosses, I think there could be a several explanations of your observation that thinner crosses results in strings getting stuck out of line and poor spin potential:

    1. You mentioned the possibility that thinner crosses might deform or deflect too much locally, so that the cross string acts as a "hill" in front of the sliding main string. So even though the interstring friction should, in theory, be reduced because the thin cross string reduces the angle of the weave, friction forces are actually increased because the main string must continually climb this hill, rather than simply slide along.

    The TWU Professor wrote about this a couple years ago, and this may be why slippery nylon strings don't work as well as cross strings for gut mains as slippery copoly strings do. The copoly is stiffer and acts more like "rails" for the gut mains to slide along, while the nylon strings, being much more pliable, bend just in front of the mains, forming this hill to climb.

    2. On the other hand, it also seems possible that the very thin crosses are, in fact, reducing interstring friction, but so much so that the mains are sliding too far sideways. As this paper and this paper explain, when the main strings slide too far sideways they bunch up "under" the ball, creating a counterspin torque ("normal force offset"). This happens to some degree any time the main strings are free to slide, especially with open patterns (and very much so with the Steams, as the second paper shows), but if the main strings have enough energy and time to snap back before the ball has left the strings, that snap back can more than offset the counterspin torque.

    In the first of those papers, "Spin and String Stiffness", an experiment was done with a 16x11 pattern with kevlar mains at 60 and RPM Blast crosses at 30 and 60. The spin with the 60 pound crosses was very good, while the spin with the 30 pound crosses was terrible. It was concluded that the 30 pound crosses allowed too much main string movement and that the mains were therefore unable to snapback in time to add spin to the ball.

    So perhaps that is also what was happening in your experiments with ultra-thin crosses - the mains were sliding and snapping back, but doing so too late to add spin to the ball. When this happens, the mains can still get stuck out of line, but usually because the mains snap back beyond their original position and then get stuck on the "other side" of the ball.

    I think it's quite difficult to figure out which of these things is happening - not enough string movement due to the "hill effect", or too much/late string movement. Either case would result in poor or average spin generation, but the latter would also result in a very high launch angle. The launch angle, therefore, might be the "tell" to figure out which is happening with crosses that are too thin/pliable.


    This is of interest to me because I'm keen to try flat, thin Gosen Polymaster crosses with gut mains. In theory, flat copoly crosses should reduce the angle of the weave and thereby reduce interstring friction. More importantly, the flat surface should reduce peak friction and reduce or eliminate notching of the mains. On the other hand, a flat, ribbon-like cross string like Polymaster has a thinner cross-section than any other string on the market, and one would imagine that it would be very prone to local deformation and "hilling" in front of the main string. I guess I'll just have to try it and find out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  34. Jacklondon00

    Jacklondon00 New User

    Joined:
    May 4, 2012
    Messages:
    82
    It's hard to say if the 1.27 might be a better cross over 1.22, I exchanged the wheat color for the red pro, probably should have gotten a pro and a regular red to compare. I would think the 1.27 would be better with gut because the setup would last longer and this is the more controlled version of the string, while the 1.22 would be perfect for Kevlar.

    I tried Tough Gut/4G and Ashaway 17 Kev/4G hybrids today. Both didn't have that much snapback, but still played good. I think snapback makes a difference but not as big as we might imagine.

    I might have strung the Gut/4G a little tight, 62m/64c, but for Volkl C10 Pro it was very playable with decent pop (but less control than Kevlar/4G at 50) and should have played very well after it was broken in. Unfortunately I could not compare the tension loss in the Gut/4G and Kevlar/4G because the gut broke after 3 games on a return at the top of the frame. I think 4G makes a poor cross due to it's waxy surface. So for those thinking of trying 4G as a cross with Kevlar rather than ZX due to tension maintenance, don't do it. It's like night and day, in this case the stiffness numbers don't lie.

    The Kevlar/4G lost 14% of tension after 2.5 sets. Strung at 52m/48c it was pretty unforgiving and for the first time ever I hurt my wrist and could not finish the third set so had to stop at 4-4. There was no snapback, although the strings still played good. I attribute the extra stiffness/unforgiveness to the lack of snapback which I attribute to the waxy surface. After some silicone spray that has been fixed and I will be hitting with this setup again to get better data on tension maintenance so I can compare it to Kev/ZX.

    I am looking forward to stringing up some red ZX crosses, both for gut and Kevlar, if Trav's observations about red ZX snapback and longevity is correct and he didn't just try out a fluke set of ZX, I think that is going to be my go to setup with 17g Kevlar in the mains.

    Last observation, after playing with Kevlar hybrids for two months, I strung up the Volkls with BHBR which was my favorite string before this combo, and the difference in control and spin was instantly apparent. The only benefit was faster first serves, otherwise I don't see myself using full poly again, when Kev/Poly at lower tension gives you more of everything (besides fast flat serves) and Kev/ZX also gives you pop on the serve. Downside? Definitely hard on your arm and shoulder if you play and serve every day or every two days. So this is not for everyone.
     
  35. Jacklondon00

    Jacklondon00 New User

    Joined:
    May 4, 2012
    Messages:
    82

    I would be curious to hear how your experiment with Polymaster goes, I have been wanting to try that string, but you can't buy it in EU. I was planing to order one from TW US, but since I am not usually a natural gut hybrid user i decided not to since it's so expensive.

    The thin Dyneema crosses did not work because Dyneema is not nearly as slick as poly when braided, in fact it was like an edge of a knife and would dig into the mains and those would get stuck, so it definitely did not over-snap-back.

    I have recently tried a full set of high quality Dyneema 1.10mm, from previous experience I tensioned it as 25lb. After 10 minutes of hitting by looking at the strings, the tension seemed comically low, like it was basically hand pulled with huge gaps between strings forming, definitely zero snapback. At this tension, I am guessing 15lb at that point, the racket played like it was strung at 65lb, the string had absolutely zero elasticity. Also I was not getting much spin despite hitting the ball as hard as I could. I joked with my partner that this could be the first string that people could tension themselves at home without a machine and still "play" with, but in truth it was unplayable. I also did some tests in a hybrid with poly and even wheat ZX and had to tension it around 40 for it to play good, but the 1.10mm mains don't last more than a few sets and the crosses slide up and down all over the place. I thought Dyneema is supposed to be tough but it gets shredded by the crosses pretty quickly and the tension drops very fast. It played pretty well with ZX, but not better than Kevlar, probably about the same. The main issue is tension maintenance, maybe partly because slippery knots go inside the grommet, but overall the whole string bed just loses tension very fast in like 10 minutes!
     
  36. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    On my diablo mid (the one I used for the ZX Red 1.22 playtest), I cut out the mains, but left in the crosses (while the frame was clamped). I then restrung the mains at 58 with pre-stretched 1.10 (18g) kevlar by weaving them through the crosses.

    I undershot on the tension by not compensating enough for having to weave the mains, and the result is a little softer than I think wanted. I haven't tried it on court yet, but I can say that the fresh 18g kevlar does slide smoothly over the used 1.22 Red crosses that had 6-8h of play on it. They don't always slide back far enough to be razor straight like they did on my Blade, but that's mainly because the effective tension is a little on the low side compared to how I had it on my Blade.

    I expect the stringbed to play very lively and spinny at this tension.

    Comparing the snapback side-by-side to my Blade string with ZX Wheat 1.27 crosses, there is noticeable difference. The kevlar does sort of snap back over the wheat (it doesn't fully stick like with syn gut), but it makes a clicking sound with several clicks as it moves in steps. It doesn't click like that at all with the red.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  37. Jacklondon00

    Jacklondon00 New User

    Joined:
    May 4, 2012
    Messages:
    82
    Yep, that's how I remember it. I also recall loosing some control and the sluggish snapback, which might have also been low(isn) tension, might have been why.

    What are you going to do with the rest of the reel now?
     
  38. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Thanks Ramon. Well, it sounds like the natural color doesn't work well as a cross string because it apparently is not as slick on the red. How about using it as a main with a syngut cross, kind of like a copoly main/syngut cross? I think you'd want to bump up the tension but it might play well.
     
  39. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    I was thinking I would try the ZX as a main with Hexy Fiber as a cross because Hexy is low powered and has lots of spin. The drawback might be loss of feel. I was thinking I would use the same tension as full bed multi, which is 50 on my machine, which is about 57-58 on everyone else's. I know that if I set my machine to 57 it's like a true 66. I've tried it and tested it before. When I string for other people I make the same adjustment and they always think my strings are tight.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  40. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Cool that you actually tried Dyneema. On paper, it looks like a perfect "snapback string" - stiff like Kevlar but more slippery and with a harder surface than copoly strings. But reading about it I ran into a couple mentions of extreme elongation under continuous tension. Seems you experienced just that! :)
     
  41. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
  42. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    Wilson Natural Gut 16 / Wheat ZX 16 @ 60/56 CP
    Donnay P1 97/16x19 @ 340g


    [​IMG]

    Only managed to get 30 mins of hitting with this string setup as my wrist is killing me from a Technifibre 315 Ltd playtest yesterday, but my initial impressions are that this plays like a gut/poly stringbed.

    I'm surprised how firm the ZX feels at higher tensions. It's not 'stiff' like a poly but it feels suprisingly firm, maybe even slightly boardy. I'm surprised at how different ZX is at 56lbs CP compared to 53lbs CP*. It's pretty clear to me that the tension used has a big effect on how ZX performs.

    I suspect that once you reach a certain point, increasing the tension of ZX results in an exponential increase in stiffness, rather than a linear increase. So for example, increasing by 10% from say 55lbs to say 60lbs will not result in a 10% increase in stiffness - it will feel much firmer than that. Obviously if you increase by 10% from 40lbs to 44lbs it will never feel firm. I'm sure some materials engineer can explain this better than I can. That said, I doubt very much that it would be arm jangling like a firm poly would be, even though the it 'feels' firm. As other people have mentioned, ZX can feel firm and crunchy but actually be very forgiving on the arm and body.

    Anyway getting back to the string setup, it really does feel like a gut/poly setup. If there was such as thing as 'Luxilon 4G Soft', the ZX at this tension would be it. Having played with Wilson Gut previously, I was very conscious of not wanting the stringbed to trampoline too much which is why I started these high tensions. Probably a tad too high in restrospect but I hit with this setup straight off the stringing machine so neither string has had much time to lose tension and 'settle'. Hit flat and you get the firmness of the ZX coming through (firm at this tension though seemingly not so at lower tensions). String is very controlled, relatively low powered unless you brush the ball a bit more and then you have the characteristics of the gut coming through. In the case of Wilson Gut, those characteristics are terrific forgiveness from the strings, power, softnees, feel etc. There's not much you can say about Wilson Gut, other than its simply a beautiful playing string. The gut/ZX stringbed is very controlled, with the ZX (at this tension) holding the gut in place and preventing the stringbed from trampolining.

    Going to leave the racquet for a couple of days to let the stringbed/tension settle and will update over the couple of weeks. This could potentially be a very interesting setup as both strings maintain tension very well (unlike a gut/poly stringbed). I do wonder though whether the Red ZX is a slightly more lively string than Wheat ZX but that's me speculating at this stage as I haven't done a like for like comparison (same racquet, same tension etc).

    * Be mindful of the tension difference between stringing on a CP and LO machine.

    Have now tried gut/ZX 1.27, I suspect that ZX 1.22 might work provided you get the tension sufficiently high. No idea how Pacific Classic plays but I suspect that there's likely to be less tension differential between the two strings which can't be a bad thing.

    Brief but pretty accurate review on the whole I thought. They've nailed the main point which is the importance of the getting the tension right. Not sure that I agree with them though that the higher the reference tension, the faster the stringbed tension drops. Maybe that's a characteristic of stringing on a LO machine?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  43. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Many thanks for continuing to test this string, Torres!

    Regarding your observation that ZX might increase in stiffness exponentially as reference tension increases, the TWU data does not show this:

    [​IMG]

    I've compared Monogut ZX 16 (wheat) with Bab gut 16 and Alu Rough, and ranked them by deflection. I've chosen deflection because this is a measure of perpendicular string stiffness, which is more relevant than the standard longitudinal stiffness measurements (which is included here as well.) You can see that both deflection and longitudinal stiffness of ZX do decrease/increase pretty linearly as we move from 40 pounds to 51 pounds to 62 pounds.

    Another measurement we could look at to try and make sense of your observation that ZX feels quite boardy as you move toward 60 pounds reference tension is Peak Force. The data in the table clearly show that ZX is much softer in this respect than a copoly like Alu Rough. Comparing ZX at 62 to Alu Rough at 51, we see that Alu actually deflects more than ZX (32.9mm vs. 32.1mm), but despite this the ZX transmits much less peak force than Alu (27.6 lbs. vs. 33.6 lbs.) So this doesn't help explain your observations either.

    So two other things in regards to the boardiness you felt:

    1. As you mention, this setup is straight off the machine, so your should get some 10 pounds or so of tension loss over the next 24 hours. That should soften things up significantly.

    2. I sometimes think "boardiness" with copolys is indicative of mains not being free to move. We know that when main strings slide sideways that it tends to increase dwell time and thereby reduce shock. At these relatively high tensions, maybe you're not getting the gut mains to slide sideways, or not very much, and therefore the dwell time is shorter and the shock to the hand greater than you would expect. This could also change with some tension loss, especially as the ZX loosens up and gives the gut mains a little more "room" to move. Just a hypothesis.

    Looking forward to hearing how it plays once the strings have relaxed a bit.


    I just ordered some red ZX pro. Will try with Classic mains and report in the next couple weeks.
     
  44. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Would have been nice if Andy and Chris would have joined in this playtest. The only thing I've heard is that Chris found ZX to be "too lively." That makes sense given his recent preference for thick copolys strung tight, but not so much in the context of his past enthusiasm for copoly around 30 pounds! But Brittany and Troy both seemed to dig the string quite a bit once they figured out what tension worked for them.

    Anyway, it would make sense that you'd get more tension loss with a LO machine, as you can't use the constant pull to "pre-stretch" the string during installation. Whether that would be more pronounced when strung at higher tensions with a LO - I don't know. Maybe. I didn't include the tension loss data in the above chart, but looking at it now, it actually appears that ZX actually loses slightly less tension when strung at 62 than at 51 or 40, but only slightly. But as we know, translating lab data to the court is tricky. Brittany's observation could be correct, but it could easily be a consequence of how she hit with the string at higher tension, rather than any inherent quality of the string. For example, at high tension she may have felt more confident and in control and so swung harder and faster. Harder and faster impacts would tend to lead to quicker tension loss, one would think.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  45. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    Not having a degree in astro physics, I'm not quite sure what you've said there at #943 corners but er, yeah! ;-)
     
  46. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    Important Update on the Wheat vs Red Comparison!

    I just got back from a hitting session against the wall.

    I have had two such sessions since posting my observations that the kevlar/ZX Wheat in my Blade felt much tighter and had less snapback than the same setup with kevlar/ZX Red.

    But today, something interesting happened while I was hitting against the wall. The stringbed "unlocked". It happened quite suddenly and unexpectedly. One minute, the strings are playing like a tight kevlar/syn gut hybrid (boardy with good control, but not getting the snapback type spin), and then within the course of a few hits, the transformation happened right before my eyes, and suddenly my Blade was playing just like the kevlar/ZX Red played in the zone of sweet control with great snapback. Just like that, the stringbed's bite appeared, as if it transformed into a vampire.

    And before this morning's session, the main strings were not that well aligned. But now, after the transformation, the kevlar main strings are arrow-straight like they were with the kevlar/Red.

    So I need to revise my theory that the Red and Wheat have different surface properties. I think the difference might have more to do with the different stress/strain/creep behavior of the strings.

    My pre-stretch procedure resulted in a much tighter stringbed with the Wheat than with the Red when strung at the same reference tension. But after 2-3 hours of wall bashing (equivalent to 5-7 hours of singles play), the tension dropped enough to allow the strings to snapback.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  47. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Trav, couldn't it also be so that, if the wheat does in fact have higher surface friction properties, that this could still explain the unlocking of your stringed you experienced today? For if the interstring friction is higher, the cross string tension would need to be lower to allow similar main string sliding, correct? In other words, higher-friction crosses need to be strung lower than lower-friction crosses to achieve the same main string sliding/snapback behavior, if all other things (stiffness, string pattern, etc.) are equal.
     
  48. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    That's possible. One thing I'd like to try soon is systematic comparison of the creep behavior for the red and the wheat. I think that will help fill in more of the story.
     
  49. scotus

    scotus Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,522
  50. SJSA

    SJSA Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    565
    Location:
    Where Nike is
    Well, MonoGut ZX is more comfortable than a softer co-poly.
     

Share This Page