Ashaway 100% Zyex monofilament

Discussion in 'Strings' started by corners, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    I will play it first as a full bed with the exact same tension. I've got a lockout, so I really can't get the full stretch of CP machines. I'll do slow pulls like last time.


    That might be the next experiment. The current thinking is to always have one set of the Monogut in the bag just in case the poly ever bugs my arm. It seems like the Monogut performs slightly better than B5E for me against the ball bashers while the B5E performs slightly better against all my other types of opponents.
     
  2. S&V Specialist

    S&V Specialist Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2012
    Messages:
    296
    Location:
    Texas
    After going through many string jobs in the last month, my findings were that whatever "advantage" the red had was all just in the head of other playtesters. I found that with 18g Kevlar mains @55 (prestretch 10% on Alpha Ghost) with 16g natural crosses @55 (no prestretch) played the same as 16g red @ 55 (no prestretch). The red sounded slightly higher pitched for the first 10 or so minutes, but then all differences were gone.
     
  3. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    I'm expecting that to be the case. The red coating barely came off unlike Genesis Thunder Blast which originally came only in black. The black bled like crazy on the balls and so they came out with a white version which was the same string without the coating. The two colors play a little differently. The black is slightly more stiff.
     
  4. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    I would mostly agree. After the initial break-in period, my pre-stretched kevlar/ZX wheat hybrid played great, very similar to the the same hybrid with red.

    And I have to say, this setup is an amazing formula once it's broken in. Terrific control and bite, and unlike with kevlar/poly hybrid, my serves are quite explosive. I really like the higher power level at higher impact speeds / lower power at low impact speeds.
     
  5. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    So I strung up the wheat last night in a full job at 56 pounds on a lockout machine. From a stringing perspective, I noticed 2 differences already. The first one is that the wheat seemed to be a little more sticky out of the package. The other thing that happened is the string kinked a lot more when pulling crosses. I don't recall that happening with the red. Finally, it seemed like the wheat stretched even more than the red. I was doing slow pulls and I had to use most of my horizontal gear run for the tension head to lock out.
     
  6. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    So thus far, woud it be fair to say that the consensus generally seems to be as follows:

    [​IMG]

    (Subject of course to stringing and getting the tension right due to it being so tension sensitive).

    The full bed has probably been the most unusual and intriguing setup, with the feedback from the RSI and TW playtests for the 1.27 generally being positive though for me its characteristics were changeable during its playing life - playing beautifully once broken in, then playing a bit 'meh' before changing again. It would be good to have some more feedback, and I'd be interested to hear what mikeler thinks of it once he's had another go with it. As for the 1.22, I'm not sure if people went sufficiently high with it tension-wise but I'm just going on the gist of the feedback to date.

    I'll probably try 1.27 again as a full bed at some point (though I do love my polys) and probably also try the 1.22 as a full bed at some point at a very high tension out of curiosity
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  7. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    ZX/Hexy Fiber 54/54 CP (approx. 62 for lockout)...actually feels promising

    My experiment with Mamba Gut/ZX at 58 (which is a setting of 50 on my machine, but that's what I have to do to get the right tension) was a disaster, but this time I decided to try ZX in the mains and cross it with Dunlop Hexy Fiber at 62 (54 on my stringer). Regardless of whether or not you believe my offset is correct (as some people think they know my machine better than I do) the tension in this case seems to be about right. Hexy Fiber is a shaped multi that I would describe as low powered, spinny, and soft. I figured that Hexy would tame the power a bit and add some spin. I think I was correct, as it seems to be good combination.

    I compared it to an identical racquet with a full bed of PPA at 58, which is a medium powered multi. My first impression was that ZX/Hexy, even at 4 pounds higher, was more powerful, but as the day wore on I think things changed. My feeling at this point is that the ZX/Hexy is more powerful on volleys and touch shots (anything with low swing speed) but less powerful on shots with high swing speed. This is the only characteristic in which this string reminds me of poly. It has a way of neutralizing power. I also seemed to be less bothered by low heavy chip shots. So if someone hits a Ken Rosewall style powerful heavy slice shot to my one-handed backhand, and I have to somehow turn it into a topspin passing shot, this is the setup where I seem to have the best chance. It's like an anti-power, anti-spin string. I still don't like the feel, which is poly-like at best and too muted, but it's easier to live with that when your shots are going in, even when you think they are going to sail long. The spin that this setup produces is comparable to a spinny multi (nothing like poly, of course). I don't know how much of this is due to the Hexy crosses. I'll have to test out a full bed mono ZX setup to find out. My Mamba Gut/ZX disaster setup had almost no spin because the ball just flew off the string bed.

    On the negative side, my serve wasn't as much of a weapon as usual, and I found it more difficult in general to hit put aways than with my usual full multi or gut setup. I wasn't expecting this, but now that I think about it, it makes sense because of the poly-like characteristic of this string to absorb power.

    I'm a bit concerned about tension loss. After my first hitting session, I lost 12.7% tension compared to my initial reading. If it stays as this level, that's pretty good, but if it continues to drop, that's bad. String movement was minimal at first, but I started noticing more movement at the 45 minute mark.

    It's not as arm-friendly as a full bed of PPA (at 4 pounds less) but certainly more comfortable than poly. Ashaway's packaging recommends that you string it up to 60 lbs and 10-15% less than traditional tennis strings. Right now, I tend to disagree with that. I hope 60 isn't a point where the string loses tension faster because I seem to prefer it at higher tensions.

    At this point, I think mono ZX is an interesting string and I'm curious now about Ashaway's Zyex multifilaments. I will keep testing ZX/Hexy to see if any of the characteristics degrade over time, like poly. For now, my standard setup is still full multi or gut because I know how they play and how easy they are on my arm over the life of the string. However, if my ZX/Hexy setup keeps performing well over time and doesn't hurt my arm, it will make me curious about trying Zyex in the future.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  8. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Torres, you'll definitely hear more from me on the full bed of wheat. I tested it after almost 24 hours and it had 5.2% tension loss according to RacquetTune. Impressive but similar to prestretched X1 and PPA.

    Ramon, you made a comment about the string saying "It's like an anti-power, anti-spin string." My experience in a full bed agrees with 50% of that. For my game, it really blunts the power players and gives me confidence to swing out. Where the full bed was not as good was against the heavy spin players, that is where I would tend to spray more shots.

    So that is why the current plan is to carry 1 stick with ZX against the 3 blasters I play and use B5E/multi against the rest of the pack. In the winter, I might revisit my stringing game plan.
     
  9. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    I've only played with it once, but that's what I observed so far. I actually wasn't having a good day, but from what I can tell my one-handed topspin backhand didn't change much when my opponent introduced more slice. I'll have to play with it some more to figure out if that was a fluke or not.

    This blunting of power seems to work both ways. It neutralizes the power of an opponent's hard shots but also weakens my serve and put away shots. It does seem to make rally shots more consistent, and that's a big plus that trumps the deficits if it keeps playing that way consistently.

    Your full setup lost less tension than my hybrid on the first match (or maybe that was without hitting with it). Hexy does lose lots of tension that first time out but stays level after that, so I'll be happy if it levels off.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  10. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    That's because you strung it at too low a tension - as has been pointed out to you many times before. 50lbs is just silly for natural gut and ZX in that 380g open pattern 100sq" racquet of yours.

    Hybriding it with a synthetic gut also seems rather pointless since a nylon stretches and loses tension with each hitting session. What are you trying achieve by mixing with nylon? A softer string bed? Stiffer stringbed? More power? Less power? More spin? Less spin? For you then to say that there's a reduction in power is scarely believable. You should be demolishing trees with that stick irrespective of what string you use. Do you have a really slow swing speed?

    Would be interesed to hear whether you think the characteristics of the string / stringbed changea over 1,3,5,8,10,12 etc hitting hours.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  11. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    All I was trying to do with the hybrid was to see if my remaining half set of mono ZX was worth anything. The gut/ZX was so bad I didn't want to buy another set. Honestly, I was expecting this setup to be worthless too, but it was actually much better on rallies than I expected so maybe Zyex is worth a few more tests now. I still hit the ball pretty hard with ZX/Hexy, but relative to full multi and especially full gut, it just seems harder to hit aces and put aways. Someone who is used to poly might not notice this power reduction with ZX because poly does that also.

    As I explained before, my machine has an offset in tension that I have to compensate for by reducing the setting. I can get the same reading on RacquetTune on identical jobs to the nearest pound time and time again, so it's consistent, which is what I care about. 50 lbs on my machine will give the same RacquetTune reading as an identical setup from TW if you asked them to string it at 58. I've seen it repeatedly. 60 lbs on my machine will probably kill this string because that's going be an actual 68. I've tried other strings in the past that were too low in tension, but none of them were as bad as gut/ZX. Based on my ZX/multi test, I might be able to believe now that gut/ZX is playable at a higher tension, but this over-sensitivity to tension is a drawback in itself and I don't want to go too far over Ashaway's recommendation of 60 lbs max.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  12. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    2,431
    Anyone else having a real problem getting their arms around the ping this string generates in a full bed? After playing it for a while and getting adjusted to the unique feel I am hitting good shots -- but the sound! I am playing with flexible racquets (Pro No 1) and consistently strike the sweet spot. I like the on-court results from this string but still get as much comfort and better spin from something like Big Ace Micro, not to mention a more "conventional" aural experience. I have bizarre thoughts of pairing ZX with a 2010-11 Tecnifibre racquet to test absolute ping limits...
     
  13. PigPen

    PigPen Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    236
    I am experiencing the same buzz in a ng/zx setup.
     
  14. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    I tried NG/ZX for the first time (on my 26.75" leaded POG LB, prestretched 63 lbs) just for fun this week to see how it compared to my kevlar/ZX. Unfortunately, so far I am unimpressed, but not sure if the tension was an issue.

    It felt ok on dinks and chips on the warm-up, but the rebound angle was so high on topspin shots that I had trouble adjusting. And closing the face didn't seem to give me the spin I was expecting. I 'tried to like it' several times this week, but each time I only lasted a 5 minutes before switching back to my kevlar/ZX.

    The last time I tried it was before my partner arrived, so I was hitting serves. I noticed that I wasn't getting as much pop or spin on my serve as I was with my Blade with kevlar/ZX. Then I tried hitting some groundies off the drop, which normally I can do fairly accurately regardless of the racquet or string. But with the NG/ZX the ball response was strange - the first few took off at high rebound angle and hit the fence. After closing the face to hit the next few low over the net, I expected the closed face (with my relaxed slightly upward swingpath) to deliver enough topspin to pull the ball down into the court -- but it didn't. The ball cleared the net by a few feet and still sailed long.

    Just make sure I wasn't going crazy, I hit some drop--hit groundies with my other frames after that. First with my lead-stiffened NXG OS (prestretched kevlar 18/syn gut 15L @ 65 lbs, an underrated cheap setup btw) - in stark contrast, the ball dropped like it hit a triple-g gravity field - and then with my kevlar/zx Blade - again the spin dropped the ball sharply.

    So I tentatively conclude that NG/ZX is not nearly as spin-friendly as kevlar/ZX. Some more disclaimers though: the natural gut was re-used. It had previously sat for 5 yrs as the crosses with kevlar mains int the same frame. I hadn't used the frame in the last few years, so I thought why not recycyle? Also, I difficulty stringing the 1.27 Nat ZX crosses without it breaking at this tension. The ZX broke twice while stringing, which may have lowered the actual tension a little due to extra tieoffs. And thirdly, I didn't have quite enough nat gut to finish the mains - I had to splice 18g OG micro to finish the outer mains.

    I may try it some more against the wall this weekend to see if I can better understand what's going on with the string.

    If I were to try it again, I'd try it at a little higher tension (or maybe in a smaller-headed frame), but I'm not sure it would help. It doesn't seem like the general ball response with ng/zx is as crisp, controlled and grippy as my kevlar/ZX formula, and it's hard to believe that a tension change would make up the huge gap in performance, especially since the kevlar/ZX gets spinnier as the tension settles.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  15. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    ^^ Thanks for the report Trav. Let's assume that the tension you chose, or achieved given the short strings, etc., was not the issue. Do you have any hypotheses for why gut/ZX was so much less spin-friendly and rebounded the ball at such a high angle compared to Kevlar/ZX or gut/copoly?
     
  16. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    duplicate post
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  17. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    Comparing the stringbed deflection of the ng/zx in my POG with the kev/zx in my blade by pushing on it with my thumbs, the deflections are similar (with maybe 10% more deflection on the ng/zx).

    There is snapback with both, but the nat gut is much easier to pull laterally with my fingers - it requires much less lateral force. Pulling laterally on a main in the center of the sweetspot with my central 3 fingers with max finger squeeze, the kevlar main deflects about 5-6mm laterally. The ng main deflects about 9-10mm laterally with same force. A huge difference.

    Based on this, I think this is what's going on:
    The lateral force of ball impact on the stringbed is probably much greater than the force I can produce with my fingers. So with both types of main, the ball is able to deflect the mains laterally the maximum amount (until the bottom main of the ones contacting the ball butts up against the top main of the ones not touching the ball). So the amount of slide is the the same. But the amount of lateral recoil force generated by the kevlar main is almost double the lateral recoil of the ng main (applying Hooke's law of F=-kx to my observations with the lateral finger pull).

    If the above hypothesis is correct, it suggests that a significantly higher tension is needed for nat gut mains to achieve the same spin level as with kevlar mains (because the nat gut is too soft to be optimized for applying tangential force to the ball). But I'm not sure if upping the tension with nat gut would ever make it as stiff as kevlar?

    I believe there is another important factor in play too. In stringbeds that lock (instead of allowing interstring sliding and snapback), I've found that maximum spin is achieved by using the stiffest possible main with the most compliant possible cross. That is, the cross/main compliance ratio is an important factor to spin generation. An example is the locking combo of 18g kevlar (very stiff and under high stress @65 lbs) crossed with 15L syn gut (very compliant and lively under low stress at @65 lbs) - generates a lot of spin.

    The higher the cross/main compliance ratio, the better the ratio of lateral/normal stretch of the stringbed. ==> better spin.

    To clarify, High cross/main compliance ratio adds spin in mulitple ways:
    1. Stiffer in normal stretch => more ball compression => more spin.
    2. Stiffer in normal direction => less denting => lateral force acts more tangentially rather than to change rebound angle => more lateral force converted to spin.
    3. Compliance in lateral direction =. more lateral stretching = more tangential force applied to ball => more spin.

    I think the ng/zx has a crummy cross/main compliance ratio, while the kev/zx has an excellent cross/main compliance ratio.

    I mentioned this earlier in the thread: The kev/zx combo is the first stringbed I've ever tried that combines the dual spin-friendly benefits of high cross/main compliance ratio with good snapback. Makes for an amazing serving string at the right tension (my current formula plays best in the plateau at last 2/3 of its life when I get through a stiffer break-in period).

    Thinking about this more, cross/main compliance ratio with ng/poly might actually be relatively high, because the poly loses so much more tension than the nat gut. It also explains why some players report good results stringing nat gut mains significantly higher tension than the poly crosses.

    The spinniest setups I've ever used have all been kevlar/poly setups after the poly had dropped tension much more than the kevlar; stiff kevlar main at high tension with low tension poly cross == spaghetti spin. This gives me an idea for a fun experiment, as I've never tried it with large tension differential from the get-go (kev main with either poly cross or zx cross).
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  18. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    I wonder if there are other factors at play here? I've used full bed red and wheat and haven't noticed any ping sounds though I do use a vibe damp. With a vibe damp, all I get is a 'bock, bock' sound outdoor and a rifle shot / smashing planks of wood sound indoors!

    Have you tried a vibe damp or rubber band? It may be a combination of the string, racquet, and/or tension as well. I found it slightly pingier at lower tensions than higher tensions.
     
  19. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    This would be my first guess. ZX is about half as stiff as a typical copoly. So we would expect to have to sting ZX much tighter than copoly to get the same lateral sliding and snapback dynamics that seem to allow gut/copoly to be so spin-friendly.

    I've taken to paying much more attention to the deflection data in the TW University string database than longitudinal stiffness. TWU used to have an Ashaway Kevlar string in the database but it's now been removed. So unfortunately we can't get use that to find a tension where gut would deflect a similar amount to Kevlar at tension X. But I suspect that you might be right - gut couldn't be strung tight enough to get that stiff.

    This is a very plausible-sounding analysis of how "locked" stringbeds behave. But did you get the impression that the gut/ZX combo you're trying was locking up?

    Ah, that is a good point. When I get some time I'll run some numbers and check it.

    Yeah, I've always wanted the option of stringing natural gut much higher, say 20 pounds tighter, than the copoly crosses. My feeling is that getting the elastic gut mains to be stiffer than usual would reduce the normal force offset, and thereby lower the rebound angle, while maintaining the high energy return characteristics that seem to be important to gut/copoly performing so well. The problem, of course, is that stringing the gut mains that much tighter than copoly crosses will distort the frame too much. And putting both the gut and copoly at, say 65, would make for a stiffer stringbed than I prefer.

    This is one of the reasons I have been interested in gut/ZX from the start: The ZX is so much less stiff than copoly that one could string the gut 20 pounds tighter than typical in gut/copoly setups and the ZX could be tightened up as well without making the stringbed as stiff as it would be if gut/copoly were strung at the same tensions. The problem here, though, is that we actually can't because of the 60 pound tension ceiling of ZX. Maybe gut/ZX at 60 in a mid would be the ticket.

    That might work, or the crosses might get too flexible and allow too much movement of the Kevlar mains, as happened in the TWProfessor's kevlar/poly experiments.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  20. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    I think gut setups are incredibly string type / tension / racquet / player sensitive. If you favour a heavier stick and a firmer main such as kevlar, a gut main / ZX setup is going to be quite different to that and you may prefer a firmer main to best utilise the mass from your stick.

    I loved Wilson NG / Alu Rough in my 6.1 18x20 for instance, but I couldn't get the same setup working as well in my Juice Pro (96/16x20) though I didn't try multiple sets at higher and higher tensions simply because of the increasing string differential that would be needed between the NG and Alu. At the tensions I used in the Juice Pro, it was just too 'launchy'. Mamba/4G was grim. Legend/CoFocus was okay for about hour. I've never been of the view that NG/poly produces the same type of ball off the strings as full poly bed does, not least because the NG elongates the trajectory of the ball more than poly. That said, I can produce shots with NG/poly that I can't with full poly, and vice versa.

    On intial impressions, I do like how NG/ZX plays but its not obviously the type of string setup that I would normally choose as my main sticks are either weighted up or have a fairly high SW and for that I'd rather use a full bed poly to best utlilise the racquet's weight and long swings, even if its at the expense of comfort and constant restrings. NG/ZX may suit a certain type of racquet (I tried it in a 340g P1) and playing style than another type.

    That said, I am going try stringing up one of my other heavy sticks with NG/ZX to see how that plays. It's such beautiful feeling string combination and should last significantly longer than poly that I want to see how far I can take it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  21. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    I have no ping with a vibration dampener either. With regards, to wheat versus red I did not notice a difference after playing 2 sets of singles and 1 set of doubles with the wheat this morning. After a few weeks of no ZX, I forgot how much I like it. The red seemed to play consistently over time for me but maybe I was adjusting to it each match. Hopefully the wheat performs the same.
     
  22. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    2,431

    I have this strung at very low tension -- DT was only 28 right after coming off my machine (followed Ashaway's instructions to string lower than usual). So, maybe that is a factor. I have been playing Pacific Tough Gut and a variety of mutli's during a long rehab and am working my way back to poly with Big Ace Micro -- all of these sound swell on contact. In any event, ZX is an interesting string but it doesn't give me any compelling reasons to use it regularly.
     
  23. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    I don't know what a DT of 28 equates to in terms of reference tension, but you don't see the best of this string when its strung too low. It really needs to be strung at a sufficiently high tension for the particular stick for it to play well (and that will probably remove or reduce your ping sound).
     
  24. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Choto, would you care to write up a comparative review of Toughgut vs. gut/ZX? I think this would give us a bunch of useful info!
     
  25. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    2,431
    I haven't played gut/ZX -- I have only used it in a full bed.
     
  26. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    I can't see where low tension works for this string at all. Ashaway says it can be strung up to 60 pounds, my advice on a lockout is to get pretty close to that number. Anything less and smaller gauges is just going to be too much power. You and I have both used a LOT of strings, so the fact we are both impressed with this one tells me it is tension and gauge sensitive.
     
  27. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Ah, sorry, confused you with Pigpen, above!
     
  28. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 19, 2012
    Messages:
    2,431
    I am frequently mistaken for Pigpen ;-)
     
  29. fgs

    fgs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,355
    Location:
    Vienna, Austria
    torres,

    when i string my hybrids with poly mains and mcs-crosses at 21kg each, i usually get a dt of the stringer of around 32-34, depending on the softness of the poly used. therefore a dt of 28 is surely somewhere aound at least 18kg if not lower!
     
  30. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    Sounds a lot like my experience with NG/ZX. The difference is you've been much more persistent in trying to get it to work, and as a rocket scientist type, you're better at coming up with theories on why it doesn't work.

    If I meet a girl I like, it takes me weeks or months to figure out how much commitment I'm willing to give, but if she's not my type I'll figure it out instantly. NG/ZX was like having a blind date and finding out she weighs 300 pounds. I gave NG/ZX 10 minutes, which was mostly to make her feel not so bad. LOL

    All kidding aside, at 4 pounds higher than my NG/ZX setup, the ZX/Multi works but feels a bit on the stiff side, and I wouldn't mind a bit more power. I'm actually thinking about lowering it back down by 4 pounds when I try full bed ZX.

    UPDATE: Just played with ZX/Hexy(Multi) again. This is definitely a promising setup. If you like poly but don't like TE, this is worth a try. It's not quite as spinny as fresh poly, but I can take full swings with similar confidence as I have with poly. The feel still sucks, but hey, no string is perfect. I just measured the tension on RacquetTune. The tension after my 2nd match was only 0.2 lbs less than the tension after my first match. That's a very good sign.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  31. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    You have got to be the worst string tester with the most most flawed methodology and warped logic that I have ever seen. How many times do you have to be told that 50lbs is too low for natural gut / ZX?

    'Ramon: I strung up Babolat VS in my 380g open pattern 100sq incher the other day and I couldn't get any control despite having a comprehensive 5 minute playtest. It was a disaster. What a terrible string that VS is.'
     
  32. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    I shouldn't even have to answer this again anymore. It's like having a scale that's consistently 8 pounds off. My stringing machine is fine, but I have to adjust the setting to make it work. 60 lbs on my machine is 68 lbs for anyone else, and it will kill this string!

    If anyone else wants to try NG/ZX, please do. I don't have the time or desire to test expensive strings and different tensions on a tension sensitive setup that seems to mix about as well as oil and water.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  33. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    For the millionth time, 50lbs CP or LO is too low for natural gut / ZX in that racquet of yours.

    What part of that statement do you not understand?

    You've never tested this string at 60lbs CP so you have no idea how this string performs at that tension. You really would do well to keep your silly conjecture to yourself.
     
  34. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Ramon, is it possible to calibrate your machine to get it to pull the correct tension?
     
  35. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    The calibration tool from Alpha that I ordered with my machine says my machine is correct to the nearest pound. It's only after I'm done with the job that I always get a RacquetTune reading that's about 8 pounds higher than typical stringers get (including TW). If I set my machine to 50 lbs and use the default string factor, PPA will be somewhere between 56-58, Discho Microfibre was 56.2, Mantis Comfort Synthetic was 61.8, and Kirschbaum Touch Multifibre was 56.1. These are fresh off the stringer, and tension will eventually go down in the neighborhood of 11-15%. I suspect that a lot of the difference is due to constant pull vs lockout, and I give every string a good pull (5 seconds on mains and 20 on crosses). Nevertheless, the finished product is tighter on my stringer than others I've tested, and I think that's what matters.

    You used the same strings on your 7G, which is just an older version of my 5x and has the same head size. How do your measurements compare to mine?
     
  36. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Using default string factors, tension is all over the place with RacquetTune. Sometimes lower than reference tension other times higher.
     
  37. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    Well mine is always higher, and you can see by how much.
     
  38. Slitch

    Slitch Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2013
    Messages:
    172
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Ramon, do calibrate racquettune with a 30cm piece of string?
    It is understanding that your stringjobs have higher RT coming right of the stringer. The lower readings from TW is surely influenced by their use of a lockout, but also because the strings settle and lose tension.
     
  39. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    With the greatest respect, the way that you're evaluating and comparing string tensions is just a confused mess.

    Trying to compare your drop weight machine to a variety of different lock out machines with different strings is just a waste of time. You've no idea what lock out machines are being used or how the racquets have been strung and then trying to make comparisons with different machines and different string types introduces a huge margin of error because different strings on different machines strung by different people will stretch differently and lose tension differently during and after stringing.

    It's also irrelevant.

    The only thing that you need to worry about is the tension being produced by your machine. You say that you've calibrated your machine using an Alpha tension calibrator which is showing that your machine is producing a reference tension 1-2lbs lower than what it should do. Fine. Now get a electronic scale like this: http://www.amazon.com/American-Weig...DR9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323299004&sr=8-1 verify it or this http://www.*********.au/bhp/digital-fish-scales (insert the 4 letter word for the well known auction site).

    That's all you need to do. Forget about RacquetTune because its only really useful relative to the tension of previous stringjobs of the same string produced on the same machine. Now assuming that your machine is accurate (even to within a lb or two), then for the umpteenth time 50lbs CP on your machine is too low for NG/ZX in that 380g 100sq" open pattern racquet of yours. I don't know how many people need to say that to you before the penny drops.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  40. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    Anyway, get back on topic...

    Wilson Natural Gut 16 / Wheat ZX 16 @ 60/56 CP
    Donnay P1 97/16x19 @ 340g

    - 16 days after stringing

    I had hit for another hour with the NG/ZX setup from post #955, and its still playing very well and I don't really have much more to add at this stage to what I've said previously. Obviously, its a different playing string setup to a full bed poly, but if you like a natural gut based setup, its likely that you'll like this. If there was such a thing as NG/Luxilon '4G Soft', that would be how I'd describe this setup.

    Obviously the gut tends to elongate the trajectory of the ball compared to a full bed poly setup, but if you hit cleanly, with topspin and finish your strokes properly I don't see it as an issue. Its just a different playing setup to full poly which some may prefer and others may not. Very comfortable though and a good dollap of free, controlled power. It definitely feels like the ZX crosses are holding the setup together and stopping the stringbed from trampolining too much.

    If I had to be really critical, I do wonder whether the NG slides as well against ZX as it does against something like fresh Alu Rough - this NG/ZX setup doesn't feel quite as slippery to me (though the NG/Alu was strung in a different racquet and at a much lower tension so its hard to make a like for like comparison) - but it wasn't enough to concern me at this stage, though it will be something that I will look out for as both strings wear over time. If I had to guess, I suspect that spin might reduce over time as both strings wear and become more abrasive against each other but that remains to be seen. Both strings remain in place and are as straight as an arrow. I can see the odd loose strand or two appearing on the natural gut, but its not something that concerns me. It plays well. Tension maintenance is vastly better than any NG/poly setup, and this racquet has been sitting in my car in hot temperatures not being used very much over the last couple of weeks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  41. mmk

    mmk Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    957
    Did you tie the ZX crosses off on the gut mains or back on a ZX cross?
     
  42. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    ^ Its tied off on a main.
     
  43. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    I have calculated my own string factors in the past. I mainly used multis and the most common ones were very close to the default value, so I'm just using the defaults now to save time because they wouldn't have changed the measurements on most of my strings (RIP Control was the biggest exception since it's much less dense than most multis, so I use custom settings for unusual strings like that).

    BTW, actually measuring a few strings to get string factors is beyond anything most of the other posters have done to achieve accuracy in tension measurements. So why don't you ask those guys what they have done to calibrate their equipment and their tension measurements?

    When I took my readings from TW, I took into account the fact that they have tension loss from settling (I'm actually kind of insulted that you would think I didn't take that into account). I've also measured string jobs from local stringers. I know how much my strings settle because I made a habit of measuring their tension the first 2-3 days after stringing and then monitoring them after every match. What are these other guys doing to monitor tension loss?

    I really don't know why people insist they know more about my machine and my tension measurements when they haven't even seen my equipment and they don't even take the time to monitor their own tension accuracy with the rigor that I use!
     
  44. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    That statement is completely wrong on the most fundamental basis. If I'm using the same default string factors as everyone else and using the same constants for head size and string pattern, then RacquetTune is using the same factor on their iPhones also. In fact, Mikeler was using a racquet with a head shape identical to mine, so our measurements should be directly comparable.

    Another point is I measured string jobs from TW and local stringers. Those were on the same racquet. So again, you are irrelevant.

    Anyway, if 4 pounds makes that big a difference in how this string plays, then I'm not going to waste my time with NG/ZX to get the perfect tension. I really just think it's a terrible mix, even though ZX has potential otherwise.

    So anyway...if you guys out there want to duplicate Torres' NG/ZX setup, go ahead. If you like it, great. I have my doubts, but personally, I don't think it's worth fiddling with, especially with $40+ gut.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  45. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    You are clueless man, really clueless.
     
  46. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    What kind of things are you doing to ensure that your own tension is accurate? Enlighten us! Is it something more than "I set my machine and go with whatever it says."?

    I could be taking the easy way too. I just go the extra step that you don't bother with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  47. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Thanks for the follow-up report, Torres! Finally, a positive report on gut/ZX. (Although negative, ambivalent and other all other reports are equally welcome in this thread!)

    It does sound that, at higher tensions, gut/ZX might work very well for a certain type of player with a fondness for either full gut or gut/poly. The improved tension maintenance of the cross, as compared to poly, is definitely a plus.

    Will you continue to play with this stick? I'm curious about whether your hunch, that interstring friction will mount and eventually start changing performance, will turn out to be correct.
     
  48. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,575
    Location:
    Florida
    I will say this. If Torres' machine is CP and he's pulling at those tensions, then his setup was most likely a lot tighter than mine, and mine was so powerful, tightness could have only helped. However, it was just such a bad experience that I don't have the desire to find the right tension with such expensive strings. I'm playing much better with a cheap ZX/multi setup, and I look at that as a good thing.

    I'd actually love it if several guys would try NG/ZX and see if they like it. If NG/ZX's approval rating is less than 50%, do I get a prize? LOL

    Here's what's going to happen. Guys will be stringing their lockout machines at 60/56 for NG/ZX, but it will be too loose because it's not even close to what Torres gets on his CP machine. So now these guys are going to complain that it's too powerful.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  49. Torres

    Torres Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    4,767
    Yeah, I'm happy to see how long it remains playable for. Its not strung in my main stick, so I don't mind seeing how the strings holds up over a period of weeks / months. I'm also curious about its longevity, performance over time, tension maintenance over time etc
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  50. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,545
    Location:
    Central Florida
    I won't be trying natural gut/ZX. The ZX has enough gut like properties in terms of power and crispness to not touch gut again.

    A few things I forgot to mention about the wheat in my last write up. I did notice that the crosses are already showing some slight signs of wear. It seemed to take much longer before I noticed that on the red. The other thing I should mention is that the strings stayed pretty straight for me but after an hour or so, some of them were not snapping back but only minor adjustments were necessary.

    Ramon, maybe I missed it. So you calibrated your machine to within a few pounds? If so, why are you relying so much on RacquetTune versus a known reference tension? Still a little confused with the back and forth here, just trying to figure it all out.
     

Share This Page