At their best, who would win?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Graphiteking, Dec 26, 2012.

  1. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    On the ATP list? But he won only three ATP tournaments in 1975. The other two tournaments were in Asia, big ones, against Nastase and others.
    We need to look at the overall year.
    What did Rosewall do in 1974 apart from the two runeerups?
     
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, No, the other two in 1975 were minor ones, among them the Gunze tournament with a final win against Newcombe. No final win against Nastase.

    In 1974 Rosewall reached four finals altogether plus two SFs.
     
  3. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    So, zero wins in 1974, and five wins in 1975, including a final against Newcombe (small?).
    If I have my choice, it's 1975. Not close, and not mysterious.
     
  4. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I admire your courage to franky publish your strange opinions....
     
  5. Day Tripper

    Day Tripper Semi-Pro

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    It amazes me how people on this forum cling to the past. Has anyone heard of evolution? There is no way any player from the 70's or 80's could foot it with the best players of today. The 90's maybe. Athletes today are stronger faster and have much greater stamina than previous genrations. The further back you go the larger this discrepancy becomes. Hoad, Laver, Tilden and Gonzales wouldn't stand a chance against Federer, Nadal or Djokovic - neither would McEnroe, Lendl, Edberg or Becker. Closer generations such as Agassi and Sampras stand a better chance.

    The question of talent is a different one. it is fair enough to assert that Laver has more natural talent then Nadal. I believe he was more talented than Nadal - still I don't believe he could beats Nadal in a tennis match. Nadal would be too quick too strong and have too much stamina for him.

    You can't beat evolution.
     
  6. tomwill65

    tomwill65 New User

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    I read somewhere a few years ago the two finest athletes tennis has produced was Hoad and Emerson.Cheers TomWill
     
  7. qindarka

    qindarka Rookie

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    Well, we have to judge the greatness of players according to the standards of their own times. Otherwise, it would be unfair to older players just because they would hypothetically be beaten by modern players which better fitness regimes, training techniques, etc. Just because older players would lose to current players doesn't diminish their achievements.
     
  8. tomwill65

    tomwill65 New User

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    Yes i saw Hoad play when at his peak and many other of the past great champions Conzales, Rosewall, Laver,Emerson, Segura,Sedgman.I know it is differcult to compare i guess if we put the modern racquet in the hand of the past players and see how they go remember Hoad and Conzales were hitting the ball as hard as many today.Roger Federer is a great champion he has proved that, in a dream match against Hoad well i may be a bit bais i think i would put my money on Lew his game was electrifying when at his best.TomWill
     
  9. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I know what you mean, I have seen Lance Armstrong and his use of modern fitness and training techniques, and he is clearly superior to all those old guys who raced bicycles in the past.
     
  10. Dan Lobb

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    Hoad's "summit" moments (best ever):

    1) Davis Cup 1953 df. Seixas and Trabert at Kooyong

    2) Davis Cup 1955 df. Trabert and Seixas at Forest Hills

    These two Davis Cup ties literally put tennis into the forefront of sports in the fifties, the first mass television audience for the game. (10 million, first sports broadcast by NBC in color.)

    3) 1956 Wimbledon df. Rosewall
    Hoad became the first player since WWII to follow his first slam win by a second and third. (Only Budge did this also.)

    4) 1957 Wimbledon df. Cooper
    The Queen broke her longstanding antipathy to Wimbledon to witness this event.

    5) 1958 world tournament championship, 5 tournaments, Hoad won on points and money, including wins against Gonzales at Kooyong, Forest Hills, and Roland Garros.
    Players include Hoad, Gonzales, Rosewall, Sedgman, Segura, Trabert.

    6) 1959 world tournament championship, 14 tournaments, Hoad won 6 tournaments to Gonzales' 4, top points and money, including a 6 to 2 record against Rosewall (including wins at Kooyong, Forest Hills, and Roland Garros).
    Players include Hoad, Gonzales, Rosewall, Sedgman, Trabert, Anderson, Segura, Cooper, Giammalva, Hartwig, Rose, McGregor. The strongest field ever assembled.

    7) 1961 Kramer Cup (pro Davis Cup) df. Trabert in decider.
    Hoad's last display of top form. Trabert had beaten Rosewall.
    Also, the 1962 Kramer Cup df. Olmedo in a display of hot form.

    9) 1963 Hoad/Laver tour
    Whitewashes Laver, including Kooyong televised match at 6-3 in fifth set.
    Laver defeats Rosewall in 4 sets next day at Kooyong.

    I do not see a comparable set of summit accomplishments for other players, partly because the equivalent opposition for other great players was weaker.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    that is true
    That is why Justin Bieber is far ahead Led Zeppelin
     
  12. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Nadal has stamina? Not recently.

    Here's an idea. Take Nadal or Djokovic back to 1958 and let them play Hoad or Gonzales. These two guys played their best match in January of that year,with the scores
    4-6, 9-7, 11-9, 18-16
    a grand total of 80 games.
    Would today's players stand to play an 80-game match? And not wilt? No way.
     
  13. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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  14. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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  15. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Maybe not against each other since they would play less games but grind out like crazy. But they have unquestionably great stamina. In other match ups it's possible. If Fed and Roddick can do 77 games in a final, i don't see why these guys can't. Their careers are not done yet.
     
  16. Dan Lobb

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    Nadal is close to done.
    Djokovic has yet to show deep stamina, and Wawrinka nearly put out his light.
     
  17. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I wouldn't count Nadal out just yet. That guy has made a career out of resilience and proving others wrong.
     
  18. Dan Lobb

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    I should add that the closest set of summit achievements to Hoad's belongs to Budge, who won a classic Davis Cup match in 1937, two Wimbledons, won a great head-to-head against Vines, also against Perry and Riggs, a Wembley final against Nusslein, a Forest Hills Pro final against Riggs.

    After WWII, Budge, like Hoad after 1960, experienced lack of conditioning and extra weight problems, and, according to Kramer, a propensity for the bottle and the brew (again similar to reports about Hoad). As a result, he had the same trouble with Riggs that Hoad had with Rosewall after 1960. No surprise.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  19. austintennis2005

    austintennis2005 Semi-Pro

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    Maureen Connely

    has anyone checked out her record?

    -won us open at 16 in her first attempt

    -won the grand slam

    -only played 3 years and won 9 majors!!

    Connolly won the last nine Grand Slam singles tournaments she played, including 50 consecutive singles matches. During her Wightman Cup career from 1951 through 1954, she won all seven of her singles matches.

    if she didnt have an unfortunate accident she would have re written the tennis history books.
     
  20. timnz

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    Laver played plenty on hard court - he won around 30 titles on it.
     
  21. Relinquis

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    On the courts; hard & clay ...
    men... federer or sampras, slight edge to federer, roger is goat, but against sampras, most current player wouldn't know what hit them... they simply haven't seen anything like his game..

    women... serena
     
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You are right, an awesome player. Maybe even the GOAT, at least if not having that accident.
     
  23. mightyrick

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    OP, it depends on the surface.
     
  24. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal on clay for sure, I'd probably put Borg next to him with modern equipement.
     
  25. hawk eye

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    Considering Borg got so much topspin consistently with a wooden racket, i can agree. Nadal would see a mirror image of himself at the other side of the net.

    Clay:1 Nadal/Borg 2 Kuerten

    Slow hardcourt: 1 Djokovic. 2 Agassi

    Fast Hardcourt: 1 Sampras 2. Agassi

    Grass: 1 Sampras 2 Becker/Edberg

    Indoor: 1 Becker 2 Sampras
     
  26. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I'd probably insert Federer into a couple of those brackets myself. I think any medium paced surface be it grass or HC Federer would be top.
     
  27. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    hahahahahaha
     
  28. hawk eye

    hawk eye Hall of Fame

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    My bad, how could I forget McEnroe.

    Edit:

    Fast hardcourt: 1 Sampras 2 Agassi/McEnroe

    Grass: 1 Sampras 2 Becker/Edberg/McEnroe

    Indoor: 1 Becker 2 Sampras/McEnroe
     
  29. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    don't bother. The 'vision' of hawk eye is exactly opposite to what his username is .. :)
     
  30. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Oh so he's a troll? I won't bother then...
     
  31. hawk eye

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    So how is it to spend more than 10.000 posts trying to discredit every poster who 's not blindly worshipping your precious hero?
    If someone does bother, it is you. It must be quite exhausting, staring day in, day out at your screen looking for posts that could imply there just might have been players who were a little bit better..

    And then, having replying to all of them.. a truly herculian task.
     
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hawk eye, Please note: It's not easy to argue against the Federer armada because they have got the absolute truth: Roger is totally super-human...
     
  33. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Tell you what, want me to start a marketing campaign for promoting the Mighty Kenneth to contemporary society so people find out about his super natural backhand clocking in at 100 mph?
     
  34. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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    At this point, I think it is a universal constant that in every decade, there must be a single player that an army of fanboys holds up as the best ever. Happened in the 80s, happened in the 90s, happened in the 00s. Now in the 10s... happens again.
     
  35. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I wouldn't call it absolute truth, general knowledge maybe? ;)

    He ommits Rosewall from his list aswell. I don't think his picks are too bad really, although I can't agree with Agassi being ahead of Federer on fast hardcourts. There's also been a great many fantastic grass players who should be above those on his list too.
     
  36. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    you forget his serving at 160 mph and his FH at 130 mph !
     
  37. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    oh puhlese, anyone and I repeat anyone who puts agassi over federer on a fast HC based on anything is clueless .....

    hawkeye's only aim is to pump up sampras and to put down federer. his posts follow that pattern .......
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2013
  38. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Did Bobby actually say this?
     
  39. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    tell me how does it feel to have been forced to pump up krajicek's wimbledon 96 run because he pumelled the otherwise 'unbeatable' sampras on grass in straights ? ;)

    and how do you how many of my posts are about federer ? did you start counting ? :lol:

    here's a tip : I've posted about plenty of other players and in many match threads as well ....
     
  40. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    nah, I'm just exaggerating .....
     
  41. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    That's a relief, wasn't sure what to believe as I recall a comment about a 100 mph slice being mentioned...
     
  42. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    here's an example of what I mean re : hawk eye ...

    I couldn't stop laughing at the bold part ...........

    I mean comparing federer to courier and kafelnikov ...... LOL !!!!!
     
  43. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Is it as bad as comparing Roddick to Almagro ;)

    But yeah that's really bad, clearly the level of tennis has slipped so far in recent years that Kafelnikov could dominate for years on end and amass streaks of finals and semi-finals.
     
  44. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, I never considered any player as super-human. It's rather an attitude of the armada to do so...
     
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Very intelligent post indeed.
     
  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, Yes I always say so and I add that Muscles even can fly!
     
  47. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    its called sarcasm. Learn, learn .....
     
  48. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Only Federer can fly.
     
  49. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    abmk, sarcasm must be intelligent to be convincing. You are just able to convince your own armada colleagues...
     
  50. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    jeez, really ?

    now, how about your posting must be somewhat close to reality for you to be taken seriously ?

    I mean saying things like peak nadal/djoker are far ahead of peak federer, federer is still in his prime at 30 ( whereas in the modern era , normal age of decline is ~27, normal prime years are from 21,22-26,27 ), saying federer lacks touch shots do really help, don't they ? :)

    this armada stuff is only in your mind. Every one of us has his own view .

    Besides if you are still convinced that someone ( in this case hawk eye ) who puts federer on a somewhat similar level as kafelnikov and courier has credibility , well ...........

    but hey , you will go any length to support anyone who is against federer, won't you ? ;)
     

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