Baghdatis's forehand is modern ?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by fastdunn, Feb 13, 2007.

  1. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    Among the top 20, his forehand seems a bit different from others.
    Doesn't look so modern.. somewhat old school.. Is it an illusion ?
     
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  2. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    When I think of a "modern" forehand, I think of guys like Ferrero, Nadal, Ginepri, Verdasco, and Gonzalez. Baghdatis' motion isn't as extreme as these guys', and maybe it's preferable that way. I would say it's still modern just less extreme. Other guys I would put in the same category as Marcos is Coria, Federer, Murry, and Haas. Among others.
     
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  3. ShcMad

    ShcMad Hall of Fame

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    Like 35ft6 said, I don't think his forehand is as "extreme-looking" as Nadal or Verdasco's. I think it has components of the modern forehand with components of the oldschool textbook forehand. I would put him along with Safin, Mathieu, and others.
     
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  4. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    ^ I was going to add Safin. Forgot. If you're a coach, you probably want your student to hit a forehand like Safin, way more so than Nadal.
     
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  5. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
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  6. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
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  7. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Depends on what you mean by "very." Federer's forehand motion is unlike almost any other. Just saying they don't brush up on the ball as severely as guys like Verdasco, Ginepri, and Nadal. Roger hits through the ball more. Roger is often described as the perfect blending of the old and the new. Nadal will never be accused of such a thing.
     
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  8. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    I think you're refering to "western grip" modern forehand.

    I think Roger is leading this modern forehand revolution, IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
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  9. BlackSheep

    BlackSheep Rookie

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    Federer is in his own category!
     
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  10. 4brotherdrive

    4brotherdrive Rookie

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    I believe his forehand is more text-book than most players on tour, still it has modern components. Fed has a modern forehand, and Nadal also has a modern forehand but Nadals is more extremely far from being textbook.
     
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  11. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    http://www.tennisone.com/club/lessons/jm/baghdatis/marcos.php

    Yeah, I agree with Dunn on this. He uses a Western grip, but he doesn't use a double-bend technique (thus the non-wrap around finish.) This lets him hit the ball lower than most Western grip strokes and hit flatter shots when he wants to. This is not unlike how Nadal hits the stroke, though Baggy's swing has more vertical in the backswing. It's a very smooth stroke.

    Although his feet in the clip doesn't reflect a good stance, it looks like Baggy maybe steps into his shot with more linear transfer than hip rotation, which reflects a more classical style. That's something, for example, Nadal and most clay courters don't do. Where he loses pace by not actively pivoting around the elbow, he makes up by the improved accuracy of his swing, which he uses to take on the ball earlier and match pace. And Baggy would have a natural running reverse FH a la Sampras.
     
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  12. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    Thanks for the link, tricky.

    Isn't "double bend" common for classic forehand ?
    I remember the book, "Visual tennis" illustrated it via Sampras, Graf...

    Yes, Baghdatis' running forehand does remind me a bit of Sampras'

    Isn't he only guy in top 20 right now who has this classic element as linear transfer ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
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  13. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    I don't believe so, but I probably have my definitions screwy. Realistically, most classic people used some elbow action (esp. during backswing) when pulled to the open stance. For example, Agassi to me is a modern forehand because he generates power through maximizing the rotation against the shoulder and elbow. That to me is the true double bend. Of course all American baseliners are taught this way now.

    My hunch is that Rafa uses more linear transfer when forced to go on the run. I can't say though without looking at everybody's stroke clip. I'm still not sure Baggy uses a lot of linear transfer, but it seems like it.

    This kinda goes back to the Fed vs. Sampras in the footwork department. Sampras liked to take long, low strides almost like a basketball player (really, so much of Sampras's style makes me think of basketball) because his power came from linear transfer. Whereas Federer keep his momentum under control and his center of gravity higher so that he can rotate his body quickly to set up shots.
     
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  14. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    I've never seen anybody hit a forehand the way Federer can. Not saying that simply in terms of "it's awesome!" but the way he accomplishes with his wrist what most players must with a windshield wiper motion swing. He uses an eastern grip most of the time, and generates an insane amount of topspin using a stroke that looks like it would result in a flat ball. And that straight arm... ill advised. I would never even try to teach somebody a Federer forehand although there are definitely things to be gleaned from it on a fundamental level.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=iAtPsPnZ7M0
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
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  15. AngeloDS

    AngeloDS Hall of Fame

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    Classic forehand is really all-technique; meaning hardly any upper body rotation etc. There was some, but not as much as there is today. Todays game, the body is all about the shot =p. So most everyone is very modern; loading on the back leg and exploding.
     
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  16. TENNIS_IS_FUN

    TENNIS_IS_FUN Professional

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    I think that Federer's forehand swing is actually NOT modern. The pic you linked was most likely him at the service line finishing a short ball that was above his shoulder. Federer's forehand (at the baseline) is very classic...he doesnt use a western grip like Nadal's but is still able to generate enormous spin due to the amount of raquet speed he generates, his wrist snap, and the way he uses all parts of his body. Kinda similar to Sampras' serve, and how he uses all parts of his body, such as his stomach and what not to generate something spectacular. I'm a big fan of Baghdatis' forehand, because he never seems to muscle the ball in, and it seems very relaxed, using the pace of the incoming ball to its greatest advantage. And again, Baghdatis' grip doesnt seem as extreme as Nadal's, which imo, makes it a very classic stroke. Still being very young, i think Baghdatis has the potential to really create something out of his forehand, something dangerous and naughty :-o I'm not trying to say every forehand that's not extreme is classic....for example, take Gasquet's forehand. He uses an eastern grip, or something VERY CLOSE to an eastern grip....but the way he hits it, his wind up and his finish make it very ugly stroke. He seems to muscle the ball alot....ironic since his backhand is a thing of beauty :( I think that in the near future, tennis will be a one dimensional sport where only the most athletic of people can prevail....for example, take Nadal. Nadal's forehand is so ugly, it makes Phil's avatar look good. Sooner or later, players will use so much of an extreme western grip that the top spin shots will land barely 5 ft from the service line and bounce way up to the baseline. It's just a matter of time until tennis becomes a sport not of technique, but of a spin battle.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
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  17. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    The elbow is the key in modern forehand. Its elbow action used to be
    no-no in classic teaching. In that sense, Federer's forehand is extermely
    modern. Modern forehand doesn't mean western grip. We had western
    grip forehand for ages.. Federer hits somewhat classic in moving/running
    forehand.

    But overally he is at the center of the whole forehand revolution
    and maybe the reason why it is called "revolution", IMHO.
     
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  18. 35ft6

    35ft6 Legend

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    Yeah, it's not really about stepping into the ball. There's a reason why golfers haven't developed a technique involving stepping into the ball to hit longer drives. They get more power by creating a nice stable base by which to generate maximum upper body torque, a nice kinetic chain starting at their feet that results in vicious torque and club head speed. That's basically how the modern forehand is hit. And that's why the closed stance is gone, because it limits the range of movement of the upper body, which minimizes how much torque can generate, not saying that a closed stance is never used (for instance, it's great for down the line backhands).
    What do you mean by this?
    The people who disagree have acknowledged that Federer's forehand contains modern elements, but overall, I agree that it's a mix or modern and classic. The grip, the straight arm (the arm, at contact, gets straighter the more it moves to continental, more bent as it moves towards western), the relatively level swing path.
     
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  19. Nextman916

    Nextman916 Professional

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    Roddick is wat comes to mind of the modern forehand technique, because of the fact that he twurks his elbow to the max to imitate this new style of play.
     
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