Ball flying long = too late of a swing?

djbrown

Rookie
I occasionally fly my forehand a few feet long (I hit with a decent amount of topspin). Granted, I tend to go for winners too often, but does the ball flying long by a few feet usually come from starting the forward swing a bit too late?

It would seem that a low-to-high stroke hit 'too late' would result in too much upward swing at the time of ball contact, so should I be making an effort to start my swing a bit earlier?

I'll admit I hit my forehand too hard, too often, which usually results in errors, so maybe I need to tone it down a bit unless the ball really sits up for a winner. I've seen some solid 4.5 forehands, and my typical forehand has just as much speed/spin as those when it's struck properly.

I grip my forehand between an eastern and a semi-western. During a rally, it's rare that my forehand lands before the service line unless I'm going for a short-angle winner.
 

Rickson

G.O.A.T.
A late hit often results in long balls, this is true, but conversely, a very early hit(ball too far in front of you) results in net balls. I like to hit the ball around 2 feet in front of me.
 

finchy

Professional
i'd suggest switching all the way to a full semi-western instead of between an eastern and semi-western. or even go for a full western.

then the excessive generated topspin would keep the ball in play allowing you to smack the crap out of it.
 

Bungalo Bill

G.O.A.T.
!Tym said:
that's not necessarily true. It's very easy to sail the ball way long with a western grip as well. Remember, the more western your grip, the further ahead your contact point needs to be. This requires *extremely* early preparation, and more importantly incredible racket head speed to get the ball through the strike zone quickly enough. This is why they call the western grip the "all or nothing" stroke. Meaning, you can't swing slowly or tentatively with it at all. You literally have to swing "all or nothing." It's just not a stroke where you can guide or block the ball back like you can with an eastern grip forehand if you're in trouble.

If you hit the ball late with a western grip forehand, you can get some balls that hit the back fence before they bounce in the court, let alone within the sidelines.

The reward though for using a western grip is that IF you do have the prerequisite timing, racket head speed, and are not tentative; you can get both incredible control and power.

Look at all the good pros who use or have used a western grip, guys like Berasategui, Bruguera, Moya, Ferrero, basically all the Spanish guys. These guys have tremendous forehands that combine both control and power, but the common ingredient is that they do NOT hit the ball late. That's because they have incredible racket head speed, are not afraid to swing away, have the stamina to do so all day, and THIS is why they can hit with power...yet with margin.

Not just because the western grip makes that feat easier to accomplish. I truly believe that for the vast majority of recreational players, the semi-western or eastern grip is the better choice, as they do not require you to take the ball as early to keep the ball in the court. With a western grip, it's called the "all or nothing" grip by experts, because if you don't swing all out, you lose BOTH control and power. In contrast, with an eastern grip if you don't swing all out, you get more control...it's a more linear concept that's easier for recreational players to find the happy medium and easier for them to understand and develop.

The western grip is best left to advanced players and pros, in my opinion, for the same reason that the one-handed backhand is. The one-handed backhand at the recreational level is usually a poor shot for the same reasons...requires you to get the ball through the strike zone quicker, requires you to contact the ball further out in front, an all or nothing stroke that works from an inherently less stable platform in that you cannot be tentative or block the ball back the way you can with a two-hander (or in the case of the eastern grip forehand, this grip is FAR more stable in tight situations and for improvising under duress).

With that said, the reason the one-hander is generally not a liability at the pro level while it is at the recreational level is the same reason why most recreational players would be better off with a simpler eastern or semi-western grip forehand. That is, the pros have insane timing, racket preparation, racket head speed, and most importantly are not tentative on their swings. If you try to push a western grip forehand or a one-handed backhand, you're shot will land like tulip just BEGGING to be creamed...OR if you swing hard but don't have the right timing and contact the ball late, you're ball will sail long like it never has before. ON the other hand, if you do possess great timing, racket head speed, early preparation, and are not tentative...you will be rewarded with a consistent yet powerful western forehand or a blistering yet controlled one-handed backhand.

BTW, back to the original question of this thread since I kind of went off on a tangent...if your balls are tending to sail long and you use a more classical forehand as you do, here's a tip. Whereas with a western forehand, you need to swing harder and faster, with the eastern grip forehand try a more abbreviated follow through a la Lendl, i.e. don't follow through with the racket as high (less of a buggy whip type follow through that works so well with the more extreme grips). This will tend to make your swing path tighter and result in a more precise shot with the eastern grip forehand in my experience.

But in general, yes, it is true...the later you contact the ball, the more likely it is too sail. I.e. the earlier you contact the ball, the more cross-court it will go. Obviously, that's why you're supposed to contact the ball a little later to send it down the line. BUT, if you make contact TOO late, the ball will naturally carry a little TOO down the line, haha...like down the line and LONG...fore!

I really need to disagree with a majority of your comments. The Western grip should not be "left" to the pros or an advanced player. If a person wants to learn a Western grip they need to understand what they need to do to contact the ball properly - period.

The onehanded backhand should not be left only to advanced players or pros. That just doesn't sound right. The onehanded backhand can be taught and developed as a player learns tennis. Why would anyone want to wait till they are an advanced player to learn either the Western grip or the onehander? By that time, they wouldnt need to and shouldnt!!!

I have never heard the Western grip called the "all or nothing" stroke. With any stroke and any grip you can vary the speed of your swing for different effects on the ball.

You made a couple points that I can see but I really think your thread is very misleading and for the most part not true.

For the poster: When you hit long on the forehand, it is probably because your turning your wrist up or your golfing the ball with a racquet that meets the ball on an angle instead of being perpendicular.

I agree that you never change a grip and never advise anyone to change a grip unless they thoroughly understand the benefits they are trying to achieve with a certain grip and how it fits there game.

As for hitting long with a Western grip, for me, that is very difficult because the Western grip sets the racquet face in a closed position and if I am hitting late, the ball usually hits my feet.
 

C_Urala

Semi-Pro
Bungalo Bill said:
For the poster: When you hit long on the forehand, it is probably because your turning your wrist up or your golfing the ball with a racquet that meets the ball on an angle instead of being perpendicular.
...
As for hitting long with a Western grip, for me, that is very difficult because the Western grip sets the racquet face in a closed position and if I am hitting late, the ball usually hits my feet.

I was really astonished to find such unanimity about hitting long because of hitting late. :shock:

I agree with BB, ...which is no wonder, but yet is not a toadying :lol:
 
T

TwistServe

Guest
!Tym said:
delete me, because I'm too tired to explain my viewpoints...

You can actually delete a post in by hitting the "x" button by edit button, but BB has already quoted you so you can't delete that! hehe
 

pondus

Rookie
For the poster: When you hit long on the forehand, it is probably because your turning your wrist up or your golfing the ball with a racquet that meets the ball on an angle instead of being perpendicular.

This is a problem I suffer from... I call it "scooping" and it's been destroying my forehand for years. But I have yet to understand what the underlying cause is. The brain can reason well that the racquet must go through the swing path with the strings facing the target for as long as possible, aka "the plane must remain the same". What is it thats' going on that makes the brain want to scoop? My latest theory is that the elbow is not turning up so and remains pointed down forcing the scoop to happen. Sometimes I feel it comes from hitting too early, but sometimes it seems it's from hitting too late, or getting handcuffed. I call it "paralysis by a lack of information" not "paralysis by analysis".

Any insights into the underlying cause for this common impulse to scoop would be greatly appreciated.

I'd love to go through the strike zone every time like this (some unknown hitting partner filmed at Rogers Cup, Montreal 2010):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmrQtZnp6pw
 
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rkelley

Hall of Fame
I use the same grip as the OP. If I hit too far out in front I will sail balls because I lose topspin. As I reach out for the ball I reduce the amount of upward motion on the racquet. The ball clears the net and would have been in if I had gotten the topspin on the ball that I had planned, but with the reduced topspin it tends lands a bit long. The remedy for my problem is simple, wait a bit longer and hit the ball in the desired contact zone.
 

Avles

Hall of Fame
Most common causes for me (I think):

--Hitting late (and so contacting ball at wrong point in swing path)
--Overhitting
--Footwork too passive-- reaching for the ball instead of getting my body in position
--Being a sucky player
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Being a sucky player, and leaning BACK as you hit the ball, shying away from it, causing MORE problems than just going for the shot.
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Being a sucky player, and leaning BACK as you hit the ball, shying away from it, causing MORE problems than just going for the shot.

Mats Wilander said, Typical amateur mistake on the groundies hitting long is Hitting while on back foot and not turning your shoulder fully and not moving your feet.

Also Back loading too early and if the ball isn't exactly where you thought it is going to be, then you end up reaching for the ball and contact point is all messed up, resulting in uncontrolled, and unbalanced groundie
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Well, I should know, I"m a typical amateur bad player.
And when I'm late for return of serve on my SW gripped forehand, the ball ALWAYS goes into the bottom of the net.
If I hit long, I only have to recall the flight altitude of the ball over the net. If it's within it's prescribed 3' above the net, it seldom goes long.
 

Avles

Hall of Fame
Mats Wilander said, Typical amateur mistake on the groundies hitting long is Hitting while on back foot and not turning your shoulder fully and not moving your feet.

Guilty!

Also Back loading too early and if the ball isn't exactly where you thought it is going to be, then you end up reaching for the ball and contact point is all messed up, resulting in uncontrolled, and unbalanced groundie

Guilty again-- this tends to happen to me against slower shots with backspin. Looks like it can happen to pros as well (though wind may have played a role there).
 

TomT

Hall of Fame
The onehanded backhand should not be left only to advanced players or pros. That just doesn't sound right. The onehanded backhand can be taught and developed as a player learns tennis.
Agree. I'm a low level competitive player (mostly because of my age and conditiong), but have a decent 1HBH, imho.

With any stroke and any grip you can vary the speed of your swing for different effects on the ball.
Agree. I use basically classical grips for both forehand and backhand, but am able to impart lots of topspin on both FH and BH by racquet preparation and motion.

For the poster: When you hit long on the forehand, it is probably because your turning your wrist up or your golfing the ball with a racquet that meets the ball on an angle instead of being perpendicular.
In a recent match against a solid hitter, I was long (unforced errors) on many shots by about 6 inches. A slight tweak should take care of this I think.

As for hitting long with a Western grip, for me, that is very difficult because the Western grip sets the racquet face in a closed position and if I am hitting late, the ball usually hits my feet.
At my level of competition an extreme Western grip isn't necessary. As Laver and others have shown, it's possible to hit effective topspin with more or less classical grips.
 

anubis

Hall of Fame
For me, the two most common reasons for hitting long are:

1. Not using enough top spin. In my vain efforts for trying to hit "nice and deep", I'm hitting through the ball too much, hitting it too hard, applying too much pace, and not enough top spin to bring it back down into the court. I compensate for dropping the racquet more during my take back swing, and then swing with more of a windshield wiper technique and make sure the racquet finishes across my body.

2. I'm jumping up in the air and/or lifting my head when I make contact with the ball. Pretend there's a board over your head when you swing the racquet. Don't move up, don't jump up and don't raise your head. Watch the pros: their heads stay level, like they're on a swivel. If you jump up, or rise up, or lift your body/chest/head, you'll send that ball long.
 

dmcb101

Professional
I had a little bit of this problem myself and as an ex-division three college tennis player I have a little say in this matter. As I started to move towards the top of the lineup at my school I realized I needed to hit bigger to stay in rallies with those bigger hitters. I too was hitting long due to my increased swing speed and I figured out that I needed to really focus on the windshield wiper technique. After I make contact I try to emulate that waving motion to ensure that I get on top of the ball so it does not fly long. Check out this video to see what I mean...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp_XHBXGbUs

Notice on the second and third forehand that Nadal is almost like waving his racquet/hand at the target across from the net. He uses ulnar deviation and radial deviation to accomplish this. check out this picture that shows you ulnar deviation to radial deviation and you can see how it creates that waving motion. You should try and do that before/at/after contact to get that bit of extra spin to bring the ball down.

http://i54.tinypic.com/2edsdfn.png
 
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