ball position for heavy kick serve?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by degrease, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. degrease

    degrease Rookie

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    I know it "over the head to left" but is it in fact into the court? Directly over the head makes it hard to get power into it
     
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  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    "over the BACK of your head"...
    With you facing out to your your sideline at the baseline! Or slightly farther BACK!
    No, it's not a power position at all.
    Consider, IF you flat fastest first serves go 100mph.
    Then your twist serve goes around 65 mph.
     
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  3. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    It should be more over you and to the left of you relative to flat serve toss. Ideally your weight is moving into the court for every serve, so to really make it heavy you have to toss it farther out in front expecting it to end up slightly behind your head and to the left when you actually hit it.
     
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  4. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    The trouble with psv255's advice is that most modern players do NOT drive into the court on their normal first or second serves.
    Then teaching them the twist, and telling them to drive into the court, is counter to what their practice tells them to do...stay near the baseline, since they're DEFENDING after the serve.
    Better to keep your leg drive into the court the same for all serves, unless you're S/V'ing, and toss the appropriate location ball.
     
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  5. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    All I said was moving into the court, which I meant to mean not moving backwards or staying in the same place. It doesn't matter if you S/V or not, your weight has to be moving into the court, even if it's 6 inches forward. It's counter-productive to hit a heavy serve without some forward momentum from your body. See Raonic second serve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkgZOvm7ySA#t=31

    That toss is definitely not behind, and he isn't serve/volleying most of his pts is he?
     
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  6. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Milos drives into the court on EVERY serve, whether he stays back or moves to service line position.
    WE, OTOH, have a tendency to serve and then await the return.
    So, we cannot CHANGE our drive into the court just for the twist serve.
    We HAVE to hit every serve the same drive intowards the net.
     
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  7. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    To answer your question look at pro kick serves from the side. Mark where the head is when the ball is tossed and where it is when struck. Includes side view videos. https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos I have not done that yet but believe for now that Toly's pictures, processed from great FYB high speed videos taken from above - are ideal for showing the head positions. Notice also that his upper body - chest and shoulders - are more right facing on the kick serve. How typical are these Salazar videos of high level serves?

    From above frames are very informative.
    This FYB video has a nice description.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkAj6MmwxHw

    Exception
    http://video.about.com/tennis/How-to-Hit-a-Twist-Kick-Serve.htm
    This Jeff Couper description and demonstration of the "twist kick" serve does not appear to have much forward movement of the head or body. Look at the great serve that he gets.

    In the TW University - see top of forum page - for the kick serve, Rod Cross has lots of research results on kick serves, serve speed range 80-100 MPH, spin rate range, spin axis and gives data for effective pro level kick serves.
    http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/kickserve.php

    See also a slower kick serve that he calls a "lob kick serve"

    "11. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

    Q: Can a kick serve be hit slower than 80 mph? "

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2014
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  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Note, the final contact point for both serves is about the same distance inside the baseline.
    Meaning, the player's leg drive into the court is exactly the same for each and every serve.
    Don't drive hard into the court for one serve, then stand there and serve another.
     
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  9. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    We seems to be YOU.
     
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  10. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    WE, is the majority of guys here on TW, who don't play S/V every single service point.
    WE, in this case, might also include YOU.
    Do you rush net every single serve?
    If you don't, look at your final landing spot after your serve. When you don't run to net position, your final landing is much closer to the baseline. When you rush the net, you drive into the court more with your legs as you rise up to hit the serve, so you land inside your court farther.
    This is universal, the first time I was aware of this was a BudCollins commentating of a Laver vs Newcombe match. Later, Roach played Rosewall, you you can see the problems Newcombe and Roach had after serving second serves, and deciding to stay back.
     
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  11. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    The racket has to rise before, during and after impact to do the kick serve. There is much less racket head rise after impact for the slice and flat serves.

    The kick serve is contacted lower before the head racket has risen up. The increasing angle between the racket and forearm is smaller, say, 145° for the kick serve instead of, say, 165° for a slice.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2014
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  12. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    Where you land at the end of the service motion doesn't have much to do with whether you are going to the net or not. I call that 'theory' from Bud BS. It solely depends on the service motion and what kind of serve you are hitting. You are not going to change that landing position because you intend to stay back or run to net after serving. It's one of the widely known myths based on crude technical analyses.
     
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  13. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Cause and effect?
    Effect and reaction?
    If you land the same every time, your serve is consistent, but....you don't get to net position for the volley and you don't defend your baseline from inside NML.
    Old S/V players always drove hard into the court on serve, but when they chose to stay back, where often too far inside NML.
    Modern baseline players don't really want to approach service line position, so when they serve, they tend not to drive too far into the court, therefore their S/V is not effective because they take the first volley too far back.
     
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  14. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    Modern day service motion requires near 100% of focus and effort to just serve competitively. Landing is a part of the serve itself like follow thru in ground strokes. If that gets affected by some other intention the serve won't be as good.
     
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  15. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    facing more to the side for a kick serve

    There are instructions on the internet about facing to the side to hit a kick serve (right side for RH server). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH8W3eLBEJw

    Here's some analysis on the issue of facing more to the side for the kick serve.

    This overhead picture shows that Salazar

    1) at impact, has his upper body - chest and shoulders - more facing the right side for the kick serve than for the slice.

    2) at impact, his racket face is parallel to the baseline for the kick and slice serve

    3) at impact, the apparent racket length in this video view from above is different for the kick and slice serve. On my screen, I measure 40 mm for the kick serve and 25 mm for the slice serve.

    The apparent racket lengths in each pictures depend on the forearm-racket angle. It's 40 mm for the kick and 25 mm for the slice because the racket is at a larger angle to the forearm for the kick serve than for the slice. (Measured tip of racket to finger.)

    I believe that high level serves use basically a similar internal shoulder rotation motion for each type of serve to develop racket head speed. But for the kick serve the ball is contacted a few milliseconds earlier while the racket is still rising. The chest and shoulder have to be changed to make the racket face basically parallel to the baseline at impact. The points mentioned for the Toly composite picture of the FYB video fits this view.

    I don't know how typical Salazar's kick serve is of high level kick serves or of the variety in high level kick serves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
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  16. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    What's this talk about "modern tennis"?
    Does MattLin play "modern tennis"? His serve is just going thru the motions to start the point. AND, he's a very good player!
    Somedev just starts the point with his serve.
    That lefty posted recently with the weirdo windup, but not bad mechanics after trophy position just starts a point with his serves.
    Is that modern?
     
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  17. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Try tossing over your front L shoulder assuming you are R handed. This is roughly 12 o'c. As you hit, the front shoulder will go down and rotate to the L a wee bit - you don't rotate as much on a kick serve. As the front L shoulder goes down the back R shoulder goes up and forward a bit. Since you are moving forward with the back shoulder, contact is roughly over your head. This is a conservative kick serve that you are trying to hit high over the net.

    If you want a more aggressive kick serve, do everything like above but toss the ball about 6"-8" in front of your L shoulder instead of directly over it. Then you will have more movement into the court to make contact and it should allow you to hit more pace. This is an aggressive kick serve similar to Salazar hitting in the photos above - but he is getting even more into the court.

    But, even Federer will sometimes pull the toss back over his front shoulder and go for a lot of spin that bounces high and wide. Other times he does toss it more inside the court.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2014
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  18. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    Modern serve is where both feet leave the ground. You don't want to change the service motion because you want to come in. LeeD, Matt has good serve and Somdev has no part of the game that you can ridicule as you like to do these days. Maybe when one foot on the ground rule was in effect players did that but I don't see it now. Pros don't toss any further in order to come to the net faster. They serve their regular serve to hit the spots and make it in.
     
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  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Modern serve must have started just after the PanchoGonzalez era. So, maybe starting in the late 60's?
    Almost every decent player serves with both feet off the ground.
    Somedev has a weak serve for a 7.0 player.
    Matt Lin has a weak serve for a 4.5 player, although he MIGHT be high 5.0.
     
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  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    And I disagree that player's all serve with the same drive into the court.
    Some dedicated baseline players learned to serve and drive into the court farther, for S/V play.
    Most pure S/V guys can only serve with a big drive into the court, so are left in mid NML when they get tentative and don't approach service line position.
    Most modern baseliners barely jump 18" inside the court, before they balance out, much too far back for effective S/V tennis.
     
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  21. GuyClinch

    GuyClinch Hall of Fame

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    Kick Serve is still tossed a bit into the court - just closer to your head. Its not a huge difference in spot as the FYB shows.

    The FeelTennis guy talks about this too..

    http://www.feeltennis.net/tennis-serve-toss/

    I find if you don't toss the ball into the court some you just cant' get any pace on your serve. All your serve need some pace.
     
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