Ballinbob's New Backhand!! (vid)

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Ballinbob, Jan 18, 2009.

  1. m27

    m27 Banned

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    What the **** are you talking about? Do a google image search on his backhand. Or any video. Or anything written about his backhand. Kuerten was KNOWN for his HIGH backswing
     
    #51
  2. shell

    shell Professional

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    Bob, I have not read through this thread. But you know I have talked to you about your backhand before. And my advice yet again is keep it simple.

    I would like to see you start with feeder balls nice and slow. I would like to see you already turned sideways with your racquet back low by your knees. I would love to see you then swing through a ball with your shoulders rather than your arm.

    To me, as I watch your swing, I see a very awkward swing, an unnatural one. I think the only way to make it natural is to let your shoulder move your racquet. Feel this as it happens. You MUST start low to high to start with. You are still in the beginning stages of a one hander. You must learn to swing through low to high, natural with your shoulders and arm.

    This is better than the last video by far. You are making improvement!

    But this shot requires fluid movement. Shoulder turn, ball in front of your front foot, then swing freely through. Until those motions are fluid and natural, you will struggle with the backhand shot.

    Start with feeder balls, then progress from there. A fluid swing is alost more important than a perfect form one. Fluid through the shot.

    Does this help? I don't want to bash you, as obviously you are working very hard. I just want to see a very athletic young man take advantange of his attributes. You swing very freely with your forehand, swing just as freely with the backhand. Shoulder turn, swing through the ball, follow through. If you do that you are almost there.
     
    #52
  3. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Whoops, missed that, my bad, and I had been with this thread from the beginning... Sorry about that...

    But seriously, you don't teach a beginning tennis player a full backhand swing...
     
    #53
  4. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Yeah this definitley helped. I'm going with Behappy's advice and keeping it simple like you said. You should see my forehand now, its even better than before:) Worked on getting more body rotation and then my coach helped me with my timing and its great now.
    Anyway, thanks for your help:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2009
    #54
  5. m27

    m27 Banned

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    fair enough. no harm done.

    I disagree. I think that the difficulty of tennis strokes is vastly overestimated by most people. Think of it as a dance move; can you imagine dancers learning individual moves piece by piece, with each move taking weeks or months to learn? It would take a decades to choreograph a dance. The difficulty in tennis is not in the strokes (and certainly not for a young man who is clearly passionate about learning to play).

    For the record, I think these crippled "learner" strokes are just as (if not more) sensitive to bad timing; if you are late on a stroke with a normal backswing, your racquet is at least moving forwards and you can muscle it for a little more velocity as the ball gets closer. If you are starting with the racquet head only a couple feet back from the contact point and you're late, you have almost no racquet head speed and you have to jerk the racquet a lot more to have any decent momentum at contact. The result is a jerky, inconsistent, muscled motion. For someone with timing issues, that is a pretty bad direction to go.
     
    #55
  6. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    Ok, you do make SOME sense, but I think both ways should be intro'd to the pupil and he/she make the decision on which approach feels more comfortable to him. If they are coordinated enough to handle a full swing, fine, let'm swing away, but don't do that to EVERY pupil. But I think the slice should be the base of a one-handed backhand anyway, but I don't want to start an arguement over that.
     
    #56
  7. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    Ballinbob, please don't take one person's advice and run with it. Use everyone's advice, and decide for yourself. Remember you have the video of yourself to compare with pros like Federer and others. That's a marvelous tool to have. I would have loved the ability to do that when I was in school.

    Anyway, take a look at this vid of Laver.

    Pay attention to all the elements you want to work on. Notice the bent arm on the takeback, the high racquet position on the take back, shoulder rotation, the arm straightening into contact, and the high finish. This is a solid swing. Also make sure when you practice the motion you get it nice and fluid and you really swing at the ball. You have to get that racquet moving if it's going to work for you.

    Good Luck
     
    #57
  8. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    thanks kevo. By the way, for a 1hbh, do you want a straight arm all the way through?? Im confused on this part.
     
    #58
  9. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    everything is there in the FAQ, ust do what it says to the letter and we'll see where you are in 2 weeks.
     
    #59
  10. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    :-?Alright will do..
     
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  11. Mike Cottrill

    Mike Cottrill Hall of Fame

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    BeHappy,
    If you want to show him Petr’s backhand, show him something were he can see the details in high speed.
    Here are some I took a few years ago:
    Backhand winner return:
    http://www.vimeo.com/1968432

    Backhand on the run:
    http://www.vimeo.com/2877301
    (Will have to wait ~45 min for it to be viewable from time of post)
    Sorry about the quality on this one.
     
    #61
  12. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Ditto. It looked like you were hitting straight through or down on the ball.
     
    #62
  13. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    I guess your right Kevo. I'll just take the advice I need and use what I feel is comfortable. Now that i think about it probably wouldnt do much good to post a vid tomorrow.I cant change much in a day so it would be almost pointless....
     
    #63
  14. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    Well it depends on whether you mean through contact, or throughout the whole stroke.

    I can't think of any pro at the moment that has a straight arm on the take back. Even the much maligned back hand of James Blake has a slight bend at the elbow on the take back. He just doesn't have quite as much as most of the others. You can look at the video of Laver I posted a link to, or any pro you like that has a 1HBH. There are plenty of videos on the Tube.

    However, for the actual contact with the ball, the arm straightens during the forward swing. That is definitely something you want. The straightening is not something you should have to do consciously. If you take a good swing at the ball, and you're hitting far enough in front of your body, your arm will straighten. You won't be able to stop it.
     
    #64
  15. mental midget

    mental midget Professional

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    lessons.

    find a way, dude. many things wrong with current stroke, you need face to face time with a professional instructor. this is not a slam on you, it's what EVERYONE needs if they want to become a player who competes at the higher levels, which it seems like you do. message board just isn't a suitable place to learn stroke fundamentals.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2009
    #65
  16. TonLars

    TonLars Professional

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    Have you tried or learned the two-handed backhand? I think you might be better off trying to develop that. Anyways, good luck and keep at it
     
    #66
  17. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    <Mod Mode> Bunches of trolling / name-calling posts have been zapped. Behave! </Mod Mode>

    _____________


    Ballinbob - I just slogged through this whole thread. (Ugh!) This is my opinion; take it or leave it.

    You are getting a lot of well-meaning but BAD advice on this thread. Too many people are "helping" you with your stroke, when your biggest problem is poor footwork and preparation. As long as your footwork stinks, it won't matter how much you work on your stroke; it still won't satisfy you.



    These two guys have been quizzing you in the right area....
    You are hindering your development by trying to work on the wrong things first. (Because people here are being nice and telling you what you want to hear ... stuff about your stroke.)

    Frankly, your movement and footwork -- the foundation of all tennis -- stinks. Stop listening to people who are "tickling your ears." Save your money. Pay for a package of at least six lessons from a Teaching Pro. (Not from a "friend".) Make sure you practice what you've been told to work on in a 3:1 ratio. Practice what your TP tells you in three individual drilling sessions before your next lesson with him/her.

    What about your local high school team's Coach? Are you trying to make the team? Are you going to the Clinics / Camps run by the Coach? (This is usually less expensive than private, or semi-private, lessons.)

    Good luck....

    - KK
     
    #67
  18. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    I forgot ...

    Watch the vid of Federer's BH and look at his excellent footwork. THAT is what you need to work on first.

    - KK
     
    #68
  19. adams_1

    adams_1 Semi-Pro

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    I have to agree with the Kaptain. There's a wealth of information here - some good, some terrible - but there is no substitute for real lessons with a real teaching pro.
     
    #69
  20. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    Are you Indian, bob?
     
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  21. Jonny S&V

    Jonny S&V Hall of Fame

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    He explained it in one of his other threads, but I can't seem to find it. He's not indian, but he's middle-eastern descent, if memory serves...
     
    #71
  22. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    I have, but not for very long. I guess I really am that bad at the one handed backhand.... I wasn't going to, but maybe another vid today would actually be a good idea. I'll vid my 1hbh again using behapp's advice in the sticky, and I'll vid my 2hbh. My 2hbh is pretty bad, but maybe i can make more out of it than my 1hbh

    Karl, thanks for your honesty. My sister was just hand feeding me balls in this vid, and I was lazy and didn't move as well I should have. That's no excuse though, I can definitley move/run, and I should have payed more attention to footwork. As for lessons, I have to pay for all my lessons (50$ an hr), and as a 15 year old with no job that's alot of money for me. I've only had 1 lesson with a pro and that's it.I took my lesson at the Gates Tennis Center near the Cherry Creek Mall, and they charged the cheapest out of any other coaches (50$). My highschool coach hates me because I'm ethnic (my dad and I almost got him fired for it) and he doesn't hold clinics anyway. I really was planning to use you guys to help me out with my stroke. My backhand has always been the shot that never "clicked" and I need help with it. It has gotten better with everyone's advice though, I think we can all agree on that. I'm pretty much 100% self taught. I got to where I am purely off these forums. I read one of BB's serve posts about the kinetic chain, and then went to the courts and made sure to do what BB said, and now my serve is one of my best strokes:) You guys all are really helpful

    Once again thanks for you help Karl

    You seem to ask about my ethnicity alot lol (which is fine), so I'll just give you the whole story. My parents are from Lebanon, and my dad moved to Canada at 17 years old during the civil war in Lebanon. He had $200 dollars and nothing else, and knew no english whatsoever. He got accepted into a college though, and pulled off a PHd in geography. He then went back to Lebanon, married my mom, then moved back to Canada again with my mom this time. I was born in Canada. We then moved to Colorado because my dad found a job at the Colorado School of Mines (best ranked university in Colorado), and we've lived there ever since. My family is Muslim and all of us speak fluent Arabic. I don't follow Islam though, and my parents hate me for it lol, but thats for another thread. I don't have an accent when i speak english either.

    alright, satisfied now lol?
     
    #72
  23. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    That's because we are so diverse, bob!
     
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  24. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    ^^ Lol im not going to bother asking

    but okay:-?
     
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  25. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Alright guys, good news. I convinced both my sisters to come with me to the courts, so with 3 people I can vid alot of stuff.

    I'll make a good long vid showing both forehands and backhands. I'll be back soon, going to the courts now
     
    #75
  26. wilsonplayer

    wilsonplayer Rookie

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    it looks very tight to me. try to relax more and hold the racquet more loosely.
     
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  27. mordecai

    mordecai Rookie

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    You're flailing at the ball pretty much. You step in with your front foot which is the first step but your takeback is too late and too small, and you do not pronate your fore-arm enough before you swing forward. Check your grip online and make sure you're using the right eastern backhand grip. Remember that your hitting arm has to be fully extended and behind your left hip before you can pull the racquet forward and finish by lifting your whole arm up to head level.
     
    #77
  28. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    It looks like you're guiding too much.
     
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  29. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    What do you mean by that Rickson? You mean I'm getting too much help?Anyway, just came back from the courts and my sisters did a horrible job of filming. I got some forehands and the rest were backhands, but out of a 2min vid there's only like 3 backhands you can actually see what's going on. Its too close up and you only see parts of the swing. You guys want me to post it anyway or just wait 2 weeks and post a real vid....?
     
    #79
  30. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    It's like what wilson said. Loosen up a little and smack that ball instead of guiding the ball.
     
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  31. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Post vid, I need to see if you're doing it right. There's no point in you spending 2 weeks practicing the wrong technique.

    Did you hit the ball any better?
     
    #81
  32. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    i'm going to go hit with my friend right now, so it'll be up sometime this afternoon (around the time the last vid was up). It was a really messy vid...my sister only had like 5-10 mins to help me vid so we rushed it. I tried concentrating on keeping a straight arm this time and it seemed to help. I mean they went over the net and deep. I think there's a couple backhands where you can see me pretty clearly though. Sorry its such a bad vid...if I dont have alot of homework tomorrow then I'll make a better one

    Anyway, should be up this afternoon
     
    #82
  33. BullDogTennis

    BullDogTennis Hall of Fame

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    i didnt read everyones responses, so if its the same. oops.


    its good to not take your 1hbh to far back, but you could a bit more. also it looks like your to stiff when your "taking it back" relax a little! also close your stace a bit, i did notice when i went down the pictures someone posted, look at all their feet, there all OVERLY closed, you should be able to see ALOT of your back if im your opponent. you want to have a lot of shoulder rotation, but you dont want to "spin out" which i dont think you do, but its easy to get where you spin out when your trying to increase the shoulder rotation.

    edit: i just read above, and apparently someone said to try to keep a straight arm, which may help with consistency at first, but its gonna be a push.
     
    #83
  34. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    alright guys back from the courts. I burned the vid onto a DVD and its finalizing as we speak. Vid should be up roughly in an hour (depends how nice youtube is to me lol)

    edit-uploading on the Tube right now. Should be done any time now I think:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2009
    #84
  35. Jaxon

    Jaxon Rookie

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    Nice backhand but I can tell that a lot of them go in the net or barely over. It's because instead of swiping it up, your just going straight through. (you can tell because of your follow through) Also at point of contact, don't keep a firm wrist and straight arm. There is one more major flaw which is your take back. Your back should seem like your facing the opponent. Watch Federer for example.
    Cheers
     
    #85
  36. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    new vid is up guys. Did I straighten out my arm good...? I'll make another vid in like 2 weeks so you guys can actually see my progress. This one was just rushed. Also, is it bad to have a flat backhand? I mean, when I hit my backhand in it lands deep and its pretty hard. It doesn't go in as much as I'd like, but its actually not a bad shot when it goes in...
     
    #86
  37. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    sorry ballinbob, but you didn't reach any of the positions, yuor takeback was still chest high when it should have been pocket high, and your finish was still chest high when it should have been at eye height, the only difference was your arm was straight. You need to get in front of a mirror and get those positions down or else you are wasting your time. It's a very good thing you posted that vid or you woud have spent two weeks doing that.
     
    #87
  38. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    even so, I'm sure having a straight arm improved it somewhat, the problem is because you aren't reaching those positions it is completely flat.
     
    #88
  39. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Well at least I got the straight arm thing okay. I'll work on the pocket high takeback tomorrow I guess. Just takin it one step at a time. I don't know what I ever did to be this bad at backhands.. Everyone of my friends can hit a descent backhand except me..

    Whatever I'll just keep at it and try and post vids whenever I can

    Thanks for your help Behappy
     
    #89
  40. Element54

    Element54 Semi-Pro

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    Firstly I have a lot of respect for you putting up your videos!! It takes a lot of courage and humility to face criticism - but its for the better since your improving.

    Forgive me since I haven't read most of the other posts - so if I probably will be repeating comments. IMO the key to improving your shot is racket-head-speed.

    Use more upper body rotation, don't force the shoulder turn (the natural follow through to the backhand) if you keep the form and technique right, it will occur by it self.

    Rather then "pushing" the ball in your videos, have a go at just RIPPING the ball (not flat, but a topspin shot). This will get you to understand how the racket head moves with your maximum capacity, and teaches you about the low-high topspin on the ball. Gradually decrease the power, but try to maintain the topspin and form/technique on the shot.
     
    #90
  41. herosol

    herosol Professional

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    Waddup BALLINNNNNN' lols.

    Anyway, definitely alot of improvements on your backhand from the old to new for sure. Haha ignore any animosity-creating posts if there are any, they just suckkas.

    I've played the 1hbh much longer then i have played my 2hbh so far, and theres just a few things are apparent. I'm no pro, but i hope this helps you out like you did with my video.

    1. Your takeback does NOT lack height or prettyness or whatever. Your takeback needs to have a loop. It does not have to be excessive, but is basically a mentality that helps your 1hbh overall. Momentum comes with a loop, and soon you will develop more elasticity in your swing.

    2. Your rackethead should "rise-up" from the bottom of the ball up. Right now you wind-shield wipe across the exact middle of the ball creating less-spin and what i would predict less control. Perhaps you are trying to hit flatter, but i would recommend to trying to master more spin capabilities early on. This will definitely be assisted with an integration of a loop takeback.

    keep fightin bro.
     
    #91
  42. The_Steak

    The_Steak Rookie

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    Going to straight across.

    Either back up or take a step close so you can get a low to high motion.
     
    #92
  43. BullDogTennis

    BullDogTennis Hall of Fame

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    next video, if someone is filming for you, have them stand where they were, then behind you, then behind the person feeding balls. that way we can see everything.
     
    #93
  44. ronalditop

    ronalditop Hall of Fame

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    your problem is that you move your wrist too much. You have to maintain you wrist firm during impact, you can loose it after the impact, like federer does, or keep it firm, like kolsreiber. if you do this you're gonna improve a lot.
     
    #94
  45. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    thanks for the comments everyone. I'll keep working on it and i'll keep posting vids so you can see my progress. I have a feeling I'll have a much better backhand once I get some topspin going. Bulldog,thing is when I vid from the back you cant see the ball....But I can get other angles if you want.

    Karl, you got my email right?
     
    #95
  46. ronalditop

    ronalditop Hall of Fame

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    also i just saw you dont swing from down to up, you swing kinda in a straight line. To produce spin and control you have to swing from down to up and keep your wrist firm. thats all.
     
    #96
  47. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    ^^ Yeah I have an incredibly flat backhand. I think I'm getting close though, I know what I need to do. Just need to brush up more and I think that will solve alot of my problems. I'm simplifying my stroke and using Behappy's advice in the sticky and so far so good. Having a straight arm helped, and I'm sure working on my follow through will help. I think I'm going to keep my takeback the same, as I'm hitting the ball cleanly everytime and I like the power I can generate with my backhand. I just don't see the need/good that reducing my takeback will do
     
    #97
  48. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    It's not about reducing or power or timing, it's about getting your racket to the correct point underneath the ball, that's why your backswing has to be pocket height, that's why your backhand is flat. Go pocket height first with the racket face pointing behind you instead of up towards the sky first, then when you have that down you can go to a slice high backswing like the one you have now, moving through the pocket high point from there.


    It is essential that you use the pocket high take back if you're going to elarn how to hit a real backhand.
     
    #98
  49. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    If you 'brush up' with the swing you have now, you will just pull of the ball.

    Where the hell is BB btw?
     
    #99
  50. Ballinbob

    Ballinbob Hall of Fame

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    Alright lol, pocket high takeback it is. Can I still have an effective backhand with a pocket high takeback? If I like that takeback can I just stick with it and be okay? If I have to go to that takeback I'll probably just stick with it. I don't like changing stuff back and forth. And what do you mean "pull of the ball"?

    As for BB, I don't know where he is. He never responds to my threads for some reason. Everyone responds except him, I don't know whats up. Maybe hes just busy though
     

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