Bartoli vs Henin- better grass court player

[granddog29]

Justine Henin's worst surface by far was always grass, but even so she is widely considered one of the best, if not the best player and grass court player both, to not win Wimbledon, along with Mandilikova and possibly Seles (in Seles's case purely player, 0% the grass court player part). Bartoli's best surface was always grass, but it still was a shock she managed a Wimbledon title.

It brings up an interesting question now though. Which is the better grass court player. It has been debated before how Henin stacks up with some of the weaker (in terms of grass ability) 1 time Wimbledon winners on grass- Sharapova, Hingis, Kvitova, but now one has to wonder about Bartoli. Bartoli not only has won Wimbledon, but she has 2 Wimbledon finals- matching Henin's quota, she has won Eastborne in her career, and she beat Henin head on in her all time peak year when they met on grass. I do not believe winning Wimbledon automatically makes one better than Henin on grass. I dont for half a moment believe Conchita Martinez for instance was a better grass court player than Henin. I really dont even believe Hingis is as apart from her Wimbledon title she virtually did nothing else on grass, especialy for a long time #1. However Bartoli is a tougher question.

2007 was the crown jewel of Henin's career, the only year she truly dominated and was by far the Worlds best player, the year she beat Serena in 3 slams on 3 different surfaces, the year she generally was thumping all the other top players and winning virtually every event and every major event she was in. Yet she was denied a chance at the elusive Wimbledon title losing to a non prime Bartoli in the Wimbledon semis from 6-1, 2-0 up.

Henin's edges on grass are a more consistent Wimbledon record with 5 times to the semis or further, and numerous Eastbourne titles.

However with Bartoli's Wimbledon title, having some other decent success on grass, and her beating peak of peaks Henin when they met on grass, who is the better grass courter.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Bartoli for sure.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Bartoli.
/Thread.

 

[tennis_hack]

Bartoli is better on grass, and this feeds into my theory that in the modern baseline game, 1hbh's are actually better on slow, higher bouncing surfaces that reward kicking topspin and allow longer setup time, whereas 2hbh's (and, indeed 2hfh's) are better on fast, lower bouncing surfaces that reward low, flat shots, and have a compact setup to deal with pace better.

 

[10is]

Headcase-Henin. Out of all her counterparts (barring Venus and Mauresmo) her game was the most ideally suited for grass. It's mindbogglingly frustrating that she couldn't manage a win despite coming so close so many times, which had more to do with her mental walkabouts and her fitness than anything else.

 

[Edward DFW]

Bartoli.
/Thread.

Bartoli may have had the easiest draw in the history of a grand slam... if it wasn't for that gift do you think she would have had any chance of winning? /Thread

 

[granddog29]

I thought about picking Bartoli for a moment, but in the end I picked Henin in the end and this is why. Had Bartoli not won this years Wimbledon people would laugh outloud at this even being a question. Had Bartoli played say Serena in the round of 16 of Wimbledon this year she would have gone out there, and then had someone made a topic who is better grass courter- Henin or Bartoli, people would have said it was stupid to even ask, Bartoli was miles behind Henin on any surface, even grass, despite the 2007 Wimbledon upset and both being Wimbledon-less. Bartoli fully deserved her Wimbledon title and it does have to raise her stock on grass some. I would rank her over Clijsters, Capriati, Dementieva, or Azarenka now on grass, which I wouldnt have before Wimbledon. However is Bartoli really suddenly that much better a grass courter than she otherwise would have been, all because she didnt say draw Serena in the quarters of Wimbledon this year, and so much that she is now above someone she would have been considered light years behind on grass otherwise?

 

[Backspin1183]

History will remember Bartoli as the better grass court player because she won Wimbledon and Henin didn't. But Henin really was the better GC player.

 

[LeeD]

Marion can consistently hit harder on grass courts.
Serves a tossup. Talking effectiveness, not looks.
Henin plays from farther back.
M can crowd the baseline and dictate play.
Whoever plays better on a given day, of course.

 

[TERRASTAR18]

Bartoli may have had the easiest draw in the history of a grand slam... if it wasn't for that gift do you think she would have had any chance of winning? /Thread

she beat henin on the road to one of her two finals.

 

[Mainad]

I thought about picking Bartoli for a moment, but in the end I picked Henin in the end and this is why. Had Bartoli not won this years Wimbledon people would laugh outloud at this even being a question. Had Bartoli played say Serena in the round of 16 of Wimbledon this year she would have gone out there, and then had someone made a topic who is better grass courter- Henin or Bartoli, people would have said it was stupid to even ask, Bartoli was miles behind Henin on any surface, even grass, despite the 2007 Wimbledon upset and both being Wimbledon-less. Bartoli fully deserved her Wimbledon title and it does have to raise her stock on grass some. I would rank her over Clijsters, Capriati, Dementieva, or Azarenka now on grass, which I wouldnt have before Wimbledon. However is Bartoli really suddenly that much better a grass courter than she otherwise would have been, all because she didnt say draw Serena in the quarters of Wimbledon this year, and so much that she is now above someone she would have been considered light years behind on grass otherwise?

Why do you necessarily think Bartoli would have lost to Serena? After all, she beat her once before in the round of 16 at 2011 Wimbledon and beat the player who beat her at 2013 Wimbledon.

At the end of the day, Bartoli won a grasscourt Slam. Henin never did.

 

[granddog29]

Why do you necessarily think Bartoli would have lost to Serena? After all, she beat her once before in the round of 16 at 2011 Wimbledon and beat the player who beat her at 2013 Wimbledon.

At the end of the day, Bartoli won a grasscourt Slam. Henin never did.

Well while we cant know for sure, Serena was much more prepared for Wimbledon than 2011, and IMO Bartoli was actually a better player in general in 2011 than she is now. I actually thinks she won Wimbledon past her prime which was a remarkable feat for her. Please do not misinterpret my words. I am not implying Bartoli did not deserve her 2013 Wimbledon title, and that it is a fact that she won Wimbledon and Henin did not. I am only giving an example how Bartoli isnt really stratospheres better a grass player because she happened to win Wimbledon (and considering she would be considered a chasm behind Henin on grass had she not, that is what one would have to think she has become when one thinks of it that way, to say she is now better).

While Bartoli is a much better grass court player than Conchita Martinez IMO, would you say Martinez is a better grass court player than Henin just because she won Wimbledon and Henin didnt. That is just one example. I dont even really consider Sharapova or Hingis better grass court players than Henin either, and they won Wimbledon, although I do also consider Bartoli a better grass court player than Hingis and roughly on par with Sharapova. At this point Henin, Sharapova, and Bartoli would all be very close for me on the surface, while all 4 clearly behind Venus, Serena, Davenport, and even Mauresmo. I would probably rank them Henin, Bartoli, and Sharapova if forced to rank however, but I could see a case for any order between the three.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Why do you necessarily think Bartoli would have lost to Serena? After all, she beat her once before in the round of 16 at 2011 Wimbledon

Specifics: Serena barely returned after the long layoff from her health crisis, so she was visibly not in top form. Bartoli was fortunate. A Serena anywhere near 100% is not beaten by the likes of Bartoli.

 

[LeeD]

Funny ding....
The reason they make the players PLAY the matches and not just award the prize money to the biggest, fastest, strongest, quickest, best looking, player, is that.....by playing, the results speak for themselves, while all the theorizing in the world is only 65% correct.

 

[granddog29]

Specifics: Serena barely returned after the long layoff from her health crisis, so she was visibly not in top form. Bartoli was fortunate. A Serena anywhere near 100% is not beaten by the likes of Bartoli.

I do think Bartoli deserves credit for that particular win. Yes Serena wasnt 100% as she was just back from a year long layoff. However Bartoli played a great match and really took it to her and held her nerve, and I am pretty sure Serena had a 60% or better shot to win that Wimbledon had she gotten past that match. It certainly was a more impressive win over Serena than Henin had at Wimbledon 2007 when Serena was playing with a huge wrap on her leg that almost looked like a boot, and also had an injured wrist which was so bad she only hit a one handed hacker slice and practically no two handed backhand. And then proceded to lose to.....Bartoli.

 

[Chico]

Clearly Bartoli. How is this even a question.