Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by r2473, Jan 9, 2013.
So it is only cheating if you get caught?
Wouldnt shock me if anyone of those guys you listed took some kind of PED. It was league wide issue not just a handful of guys. It also obviously wasnt limited to just the homerun hitters as pitchers and some smaller guys have been caught as well.
Yea Maddux and Glavines 82 mph pitches on the black had to be aided by PEDs
Well, Andy Pettitte's blistering 87mph cutter was aided by HGH.
Tell me what you know about "PED's".
What different kinds are out there?
What can these different PED's do for different types of athletes?
I am not going to get into a discussion with you. You even make jokes about the brain damage Junior Seau suffered so you take nothing serious.
I will agree with him. Your saying just power is generated by these guys shows a lack of knowledge about what peds do.
Why don’t you share with us then what exactly PEDs do to the players and why the MLB cracked down on PEDs and just announced new testing measures? Is it true that roughly half of the players caught are pitchers?
You can also explain what you meant when you said in earlier post doping is “league wide” in the MLB. By that you mean …50%...70%....or 90%, and how do you come up with that number.
Can you also shed some lights on the legal battle between the MLB and the baseball players/ their lawyers/PR/union on the issues of PEDs, testing, and punishment?
Me, I just thought that players take PEDs for placebo effect and the only side effect is shrinking penises.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about with Bonds. He was named by noted baseball writer Bill James as the best player of the 90s, and this was before PED. In the same class as Griffey, who's definitely 1st ballot. 8x Gold Glover in the 90s, 8x All Star in the 90s, 3x MVP again, in the 90s, only guy ever w/ 500 HRs & 500 steals. Most of his non-HR accomplishments were pre PED, and he was definitely a HOFer before he even touched the stuff. And you have the audacity to say he's 'ehhh'? What are you talking about?
You're gonna tell me right now that Barry Bonds isn't better than Paul Molitor? Or Dennis Eckersly? Wade Boggs? Don't get me wrong, those guys were great, but Bonds is on another level of those guys, PED or no PED.
Where on earth did I say that? Are you one whos also cheated so you have to try and make people believe you accomplished something legitimately?
What do you mean by pre PED era?
In 2006, the book Game of Shadows, excerpts of grand jury testimony was leaked and claimed that Bonds used stanozolol (which was the steroids of choice of Ben Johnson during 1988 Olympics.)
The MLB league ban came into effect 1991, so we can’t be certain that Bonds was dirty or not way back then in the 90s.
The book also says he started using after 1998 season. To that point he had 374 HRs, 417 steals, 8 AS appearances, 8 golden gloves, and 3 MVP awards.
"Bonds' journey into the world of performance-enhancing supplements began in January 1997, when he tried androstenedione for the first time, a man who says he sold it to the slugger told ESPN The Magazine's Shaun Assael. Stan Antosh, a California biochemist.”
Even the timeline is tricky depends who you talk to.
“New York Daily News reports that Bonds failed a drug test under MLB's amphetamine policy during the 2006 season. Under the policy, players are not publicly identified for a first positive test for amphetamines”
Do we know all the nuts and bolts of the agreements between the MLB and the players’ union regarding PED? This was 2006. How about in the 90s?
There were grand jury testimonies, records that were sealed.
It’s awfully hard for us not to put a big question mark on Bonds’ entire achievements.
I am one of the ones that can recognized that peds dont make someone the most feared hitter in baseball. He was that good the peds just allowed him to do it longer and ya he got bigger. Its not like he went from a fringe player to a superstar overnight because he took some funky stuff.
PEDS are not this fix all that if your a mediocre player all the sudden you become a hall of famer.
It appears a lot of people wanna hold on to the idea that Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa ams so many others had to be clean because they were the guys they rooted for and theres no way they could have been hoodwinked so bad so they refuse to admit they didnt realize their hero was a cheater. Some even try to throw out the, "how do you know Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth werent juicing?" to try and avoid realization that 'their' guy doesnt really measure up to the guys of the past.
Ohhhh, youre one of those guys huh? He went from a guy who hit mid 30 HRs-lower 40 HRs a year to all the sudden the closer he got to 40 years old he could hit over 70 HRs at the same time he was being walked close to 200 times in the same season? And youre one of those guys who can tell PEDs didnt make him the most feared hitter in history? Were you born with that ability or buy it at Wal Mart?
No ones said these PEDs turned a mediocre player into a HOFer but Jose Canseco said that it took him from a career minor league type player into an AL MVP. Plus if you are already an MVP type player like Bonds, we saw that it turned him into a Superman at the plate. If you cant see that then nothing else needs to be discussed
You're starting to sound stupid right now. The argument isn't about if these guys juiced, but when they started and how much it had to do with their success. Guys like Bonds and Clemens were great even before they juiced.
Oh, I guess you have forgotten how many people, including the Red Sox front office thought Clemens was washed up when they let him go and he was doing horrible in Toronto before he started juicing and it totally trasnformed him into an even better pitcher than he was before.
Even by your ridiculous post earlier you were admitting that close to half of Bonds' HRs were probably if not definitely aided by PEDs yet you still want him enshrined in the HOF and youre calling me stupid?
Because HRs alone aren't the only reason for Bonds' HOF credentials. The guy was a great, GREAT outfielder during the 90s, as evidenced by his 8 gold glove awards. Also was a monster on the basepaths, as evidenced by his steal numbers.
In an alternate universe where Bonds never uses PED and continues on his career trajectory, he would have still had likely gotten 500+ HRs and 500+ SB (the only player EVER to do that BTW).
Yes, but he wasnt content with hitting "just" 500 HRs so he chose to cheat so he could pass the HR king Henry Aaron. Joe Jackson wouldve been a HOFer and so would Pete Rose but they made bad choices just like Bonds and Clemens did.
That a player was good or great before he "juiced" is irrelevant. Baseball writers are told to factor a player's character and integrity in their voting; cheating suggests neither character nor integrity. These players had a simple choice: I can juice and make more millions than if I hadn't, or I can remain eligible for enduring glory. They made their choices and need to live with that.
Ty Cobb was the picture of character and integrity.
^^ Fortunately for Cobb, he was elected to the Hall in 1936. Character, integrity and sportsmanship were specified as criteria in 1945.
(but there's scant excuse for a restaurant I was at last week serving a fusion dish called the "Thai Cobb Salad.")
Wow...Rose should be in too?
You can't see how a cheater should be kept out of the Hall of Fame? I gues it is OK to cheat. When you play tennis to you question line calls? Rules are rules. They should all be kept out forever.. end of Story.
Guess he made the choice to cheat and now he is paying the price. No one gave a darn when he broke Hank's 714. ESPN kept trying to get interest going... no one was buying it!!!
Baseball used these guys when the game was dying during the 90s. They helped bring baseball back. Now people want to be holier than thou and drag them through the mud. It's ridiculous and I'm tired of it.
Baseball has always had cheaters. Guys using greenies and amphetamines back in the 70s. Scuffing balls. Pine tar. Stealing signs. Corked bats. Gimme a break.
Youre tired of those who dont want to reward cheating? Some side you chose.
The hall is already full of cheaters. Deal with it.
The voters decided not to add more to it then, so you deal with it.
Doing horrible in Toronto would be the two years he lead the league in wins and ERA, and won the Cy Young award?
Please, tell me your benchmark for a good year.
Were you watching baseball back then? He had 4 bad seasons in a row with Boston where he won around 40-45 games total if I remember correctly then left for Toronto. Then he started spring training getting bombed in 4-5 starts even worse than he did the last 4 years in boston and felt he needed to do something to prove he was worth the multi million dollar deal and thats when he decided to start with the PEDs and it turned his career totally around. (thats when his trainer said he began cheating with PEDs) He went from on the verge of washed up while clean to going on to winning 4 more Cy Youngs on the PEDs and he. just like Bonds, did this as he got older and for some reason you guys think the PEDs only helped them marginally if at all.
If memory serves me correctly, Clemens never had great stats during training camps, even when he was with Boston.
To add, he started the year 3-0, giving up 1 earned run in those 3 starts, with 20 strike outs. Additionally, steroids wouldn't work as fast as you are suggesting (beginning to take them at the end of training camp where he sucked, to his first start where he was untouchable). Not saying I think he didn't use them, but just setting the record straight.
One more thing,,,,,,, Don't forget that Clemens struck out 20 batters in 1996 against the Tigers ( a time where you and the "front office" thought he was washed up, and also a time where you suggest he wasn't doing PED's. )
So whyd he cheat or you believe that he didnt?
I answered this question and love the way you ignore the whole of my post. :roll:
and for the record, I don't think anyone who cheated or twisted the rules should get into the HOF.
His trainer is the one who said he began doing PEDs in Toronto and it drastically changed the way he pitched from that point on.
At least we agree that cheaters should not make the HOF
Bonds wasn't "great" in Pitt in the same way he was "great" in San Fran.
Oh, and he was super overrated as an outfielder and his "Gold Glove" awards were a joke. He had a lame duck arm, which is why he was moved from right to left field.
My point, as well as the facts I provided for you stand. He struck out 20 batteries (equaling his record) at the end of the 1996 season with the Red Sox (one of his last starts with them). In addition, PED's won't work as fast as you suggest (he sucked for 4 weeks in training camp, then decided to do PED's, and came out taking no prisoners a few days later.
And again, I'm not saying he didn't take roids or other substances. I'm convinced he did. Probably began takin them at the end of 1996 (while with Boston, and suffering from shoulder problems).
I dont know how quickly they can possibly work but there was one mediocre pitcher who pitched for the Twins back in that era and he was on a talk show just a few weeks ago and he claimed that he was only able to throw 87 mph until he started on some PED program and in 3 months he was able to throw 95 and threw that hard for 2 years before an injury ended his career.
Clemens was throwing near 100 mph his whole career. PED's or roids did nothing to help him improve speed. If it did, he would have been throwing 200 mph. It also did nothing in helping him with control, pitch selection, or movement.
What it did, was to help him recover quicker between starts, thus allowing him to go deeper into games, throw more pitches, and helped strengthen his ailing shoulder which began in Boston the last few years he was there.
Hall of Famer Hal Newhouser vs. non-HOF'er Carl "Duck!" Mays
Wins - Losses / Winning % - ERA - 162 Game Ave.
Newhouser: 207-160 .580% - 3.06 - 16-12
-Carl Mays: 208-126 .623% - 2.92 - 17-11
They can default on Bonds, make Clements do penance, go to hell Bagwell - I don't care.
Newhouser posted his best year in 1944 when our boys were off fighting for 'Parisian Pie' and fighting off The House of the Rising Sun while that shrinking violet slacker was padding his stats against Fenway Park Community College and the like. The stats don't lie~!!!
"The Jelly Beaner" Carl Mays is long overdue in Cooperstown! Writers, right this wrong!
ps, i would've voted for Raines
Dedan, Raines is the only one in the poll I did vote for
THAT'S illogical...you celebrate the accomplishments but not the person? again it's the phoniness of mlb just seeing their players as cash cows while washing their hands when trouble comes.
do you think ty cobbshould be banned as well?
apples and oranges...
Separate names with a comma.