Battle of Two Pushers

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Camilio Pascual, Oct 4, 2005.

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2 Pushers (see text): Most disproportionately high number of:

  1. unforced errors

    100.0%
  2. winners

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. forced errors

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. none of the above

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

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    In a tennis match between 2 pushers of equal ability, of which would you expect the most disproportionately high number: UE's, winners, forced errors, or none of the above?
     
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  2. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    If they're both pushers, they won't make a lot of unforced nor will they be good enough to force errors. Pushers definitely don't hit many winners on each other so the answer is none of the above and all of the above. Pushers will keep on rallying for a long time until something happens and that something can be any of the above options.
     
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  3. GrahamIsSuper

    GrahamIsSuper Semi-Pro

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    Something as in??? Volcano? Stray hurricane? Rosie O`donnel book signing?

    Without these natural disasters, I can only see them making unforced errors.
    Even pushers aren't machines, eventually they miss. Caculable Human Error.
     
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  4. cadfael_tex

    cadfael_tex Professional

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    I've got to go with death by natural causes. That is especially if you count being bludgeoned to death by spectators natural - which I do. :p
     
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  5. fishuuuuu

    fishuuuuu Hall of Fame

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    As things are looking right now the stray hurricane has the highest potential of occuring right next to unforced errors.
     
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  6. Geezer Guy

    Geezer Guy Hall of Fame

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    I'd say there's a high number (relatively speaking) of unforced errors (because winners or even forced errors are rare), and a high number of matches that don't get finished in the aloted timeframe.
     
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  7. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    Unforced errors after long rallies. You will have occasional winners and some forced errors but mostly unforced errors after long rallies if they are true pushers. If they are more than just pushers then the winner and forced error counts rise.
     
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  8. finesse15

    finesse15 New User

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    This scenario is impossible to watch ... Two pushers *shudder*.
     
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  9. PM_

    PM_ Professional

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    I agree with Geezer and kevhen. There's no other ending to this sad story of each point except that one will finally cause the other to make a mistake.
     
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  10. max

    max Hall of Fame

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    Unforced errors; one has to be a tad more consistent than the other.
     
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  11. Rickson

    Rickson G.O.A.T.

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    Cami asked for a disproportionately high number and UEs are not at a high number for pushers.
     
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  12. fishuuuuu

    fishuuuuu Hall of Fame

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    Doesn't matter who it is, UE dominates any low level of play ... pusher or not.
     
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  13. winks

    winks Rookie

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    For 2 pushers, the number of UE's will not be disproportionately high when compared with the number of total strokes (which is I think what you are saying), but as others said UE's will dominate over Winners, Forced Errors, etc.
     
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  14. SageOfDeath

    SageOfDeath Guest

    Yea you won't see winners or forced errors so eventually they'll miss and make an unforced error.
     
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  15. Tim Tennis

    Tim Tennis Professional

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    I love to see two pushers play each other. It is called poetic justice.

    You got to love the game.
     
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  16. GrahamIsSuper

    GrahamIsSuper Semi-Pro

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    While I would normally agree with you, as we apparently think alike, I have to disagree here. Yes, if a pusher were playing ANY other player instead of a pusher, they would not hit many UE's. BUT, since they are playing a pusher, and since pushers can't really hit winners or force errors, the only option left is UE's.

    They'd hit, hit, hit, hit^300 until eventually one messed up. They wouldn't, or rarely would, hit winners.
     
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  17. Burt Turkoglu

    Burt Turkoglu Rookie

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    ....depends on the type of pushers....if it was the type of pusher who would be real steady but come in on right ball, then I could see more winners and forced errors....I used to be a pusher in school but I had a high number of winners at net....if they were both pushers of equal ability that didn't come to net......well.......bring your lunch.....and dinner for that fact.....the pusher who was slightly quicker and better fit should win........what I often see, especially on clay, is the first few games or set takes forever, then once dominance is established, the other falls apart quickly with lots of errors....
     
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  18. Koaske

    Koaske Rookie

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    Depends on the level of the pusher. Good pushers can force lots of forced errors ,but I still don't think the match victory is based on winners. Lower level pushers make lots of unforeced errors of course.
     
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  19. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

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    That is a very perceptive comment and a basic reason why I have disagreed with the ATP-dominated opinions on the TW board & many lazy (see: "pack journalism") tennis commentators that the WTA is a high risk/high gamble game using the high number of UE's as "proof." It occurred to me that pushers at any level are going to have a lot of UE's, so that is unreliable "proof."

    Since pushers rarely make forcing shots, I would expect forced error totals to be rather low.
     
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  20. FiveO

    FiveO Hall of Fame

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    True.

    But we won't know the numbers for a while as the match between the 2 pushers is probably still going on.;)
     
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  21. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    It's a matter of who is better at their 'craft' of pushing...who has more discpline and who wont be the first to get bored w. the point, get sloppy, and do a UE. pushers used to be dreaded because you could have good results and beat good players back in the day of low powered frames..now adays, pushers really only exist in open age events up to the 4.0 level, because better players just put the away or get a pusher on his horse and run them ragged (which is kinda fun to do)..to me, justice is one pusher having to play another and they should all be given full frontal cortex lobotomies ;O
     
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  22. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    5.0 and NBM,

    Here is my personal record for watching two pushers. Since I coach some HS tennis.. you can guess that I have seen a fair bit of pushing. Anyway, 3 hours 15 minutes to play a 6-2 6-3 match. I could not of course leave.. since it was of course the last match.. and of course.. the team match score was 2-2 at the time. Even the kid's parents (on my team) left to go eat dinner! Had me call them on the cell when Tim was done with his match. They had seen this many times.. so they bailed.

    Have a good one!

    Steve
     
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  23. TennsDog

    TennsDog Hall of Fame

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    Probably none of the above would be outlandishly high, but the unforced errors would probably be higher than normal. This is because pushers are not aggressive so they wouldn't hit winners really at all, and they wouldn't set up points that would really put the opponent on defense to create forced errors. They would just keep pushing back and forth, and, since all players are human, one of the two would eventually miss after some number of hits. Almost every point would probably end in some kind of unforced error, I think. It does probably depend on the pushers, though, and to what degree they are pushers and if they can adjust or of they are actually decent players.
     
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  24. rafael

    rafael Rookie

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    You have the longest match in history: Clement vs Santoro at the FO.
     
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  25. rilokiley

    rilokiley Professional

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    how long was that, rafa?
     
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  26. rafael

    rafael Rookie

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    6 Hours and 33 minutes. It carried over to a 2nd day though because it got too late.
     
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  27. RiosTheGenius

    RiosTheGenius Hall of Fame

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    that's my take too
     
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  28. RiosTheGenius

    RiosTheGenius Hall of Fame

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    two pushers can play forever, but I'd say the UE will come eventually for trying to play safe
     
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  29. arky-tennis

    arky-tennis Semi-Pro

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    That match couldn't be a fun match... Now a days, people would be asking for all these timeouts. "High Performance Match"
     
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  30. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    First, I dont get the need for a poll on this. But yes, poetic justice and one boring match.
     
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  31. Love40

    Love40 Rookie

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    I had the opportunity (misfortune?) to see this exact match.
    My USTA team made it to district championships this year in Denver. Our best pusher met up with a great pusher from a Denver team, and whoo boy, that was one long match.

    I was jumping out of my skin watching these guys hit back and forth from the baseline, both refusing to EVER take a short ball and go to net. One was a topspinner, and our guy was a flat dinker.

    Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink, Brush - Dink

    The match, a 2 setter with 10 point tie break instead of a third set, took FOUR hours and 40 minutes! I kid you not.

    Match was 6-7, 7-6, 10-8 after our guy cramped up so bad he couldn't get around the court.

    Believe me, every point was lost due to unforced error (although many points took more than a 30 hit rally to get there)
     
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  32. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    Cool, that takes some serious mental and physical conditioning to go that long in such a close match. Brush-Dink, Brush-Dink, etc...... classic pusher style! They do need to work on adding a little bit of offense to their games, like a bigger serve or an approach shot and volley. My body wouldn't take playing defensively the rest of my life so I started working on adding weapons to finish points with.
     
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  33. FiveO

    FiveO Hall of Fame

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    Pusher v. Pusher post match conversation?

    ...with apologies to the pushers routinely beating "better" players every day.*

    Frankie: What's the matter?

    Willie: Eh, my shoulder hurts. You know - you know that narrow hallway in the boiler room? The one with the, uh--?

    Frankie: Exposed bolts comin' out o' the wall?

    Willie: Yeah. Well, every time I walk past it, the bolts dig right into my shoulder. I-- It's very painful.

    Frankie: Boy. You wanna talk about some pain? I bought one o' them linoleum knives the other day, you know?

    Willie: With the double edge?

    Frankie: Right.

    Willie: Yeah?

    Frankie: So, I go home, you know, and I spread my toes apart and I just start sawing, back and forth and back and forth, you know?

    Willie: Mm hmm.

    Frankie: And I take a little thing o' Tobasco sauce, you know?

    Willie: Yeah.

    Frankie: And just dump it on there. Talk about a hotfoot, mister! Boy, that was rough.

    Willie: Yeah, I know what you mean. You know, the other day, I took one o' them, uh--?

    Frankie: Meat thermometers?

    Willie: Yeah! And I just shoved it into my ear, you know? As far as it could go, you know? But then I took one o' them, uh--?

    Frankie: Ball-peen hammers?

    Willie: Right. And just whacked it a few times right in there, you know.

    Frankie: Boy, that must smart.

    Willie: I know! I HATE when THAT happens.

    Frankie: You know what I hate?

    Willie: What?

    Frankie: I go into the kitchen, I open the drawer, you know?

    Willie: Uh huh?

    Frankie: And I take out a, uh--

    Willie: Carrot scraper?

    Frankie: Right. And I stick it up my nose, you know, and I'm rootin' it around, and, you know, gettin' all the mucus membranes out o' there, you know? And then I take one o' them, uh--?

    Willie: Mentholated eucalyptus cough drops?

    Frankie: Right. And I stick it-- wedge it up there, you know? I take a couple o' whiffs, boy. Heh, ya feel like your head's gonna explode.

    Willie: Boy, isn't THAT the truth? It's like the other night. I'm in the attic and I got a bunch o' mousetraps, ya know?

    Frankie: Right.

    Willie: And, for bait, I used a big piece of, uh--

    Frankie: Camembert?

    Willie: Right. So, so I set the trap, right? A-a-a-a-and I wanna see if the trap was gonna work, right? So I got the Camembert in there.

    Frankie: Right.

    Willie: But every time I went to taste the cheese, the thing came down right on my tongue! ... I'm tellin' ya -- after forty, fifty times, I - I - I couldn't even feel the cheese, much less taste it. I hate when THAT happens, I'll tell ya that.

    Frankie: Boy, you know what I hate? I hate-- I got a gross o' them, uh--?

    Willie: Razor blades?

    Frankie: No.

    Willie: Fish hooks?

    Frankie: No.

    Willie: Ah?

    Frankie: Thumb tacks.

    Willie: Ah! Yeah.

    Frankie: Right?

    Willie: Yeah.

    Frankie: So I bring 'em home, you know, and I sprinkle 'em all out over the floor, you know?

    Willie: Points up?

    Frankie: Right.

    Willie: Uh huh.

    Frankie: Then I strip down to the nude and I just ROLL back and forth across the room, ya know? Stickin' in all over my body. Then I jump in a hot tub and just soak.

    Willie: Mm hmm.

    Frankie: Hate that.

    Willie: Sounds very painful.

    Frankie: Very painful.


    Just wondering if the pusher v. pusher match-up reminds anyone else of the old Saturday Night Live skits involving the sadomasochistic characters "Willie and Frankie" (Billy Crystal and Christopher Guest). God bless the pusher.
     
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  34. North

    North Professional

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    I would rather be covered in bees than have to watch two pushers play.
     
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  35. kevhen

    kevhen Hall of Fame

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    Pushers have confidence because they can keep the ball in play. Power players are more sadomasochistic in my opinion as they live and die point by point by trying to rip the crap out of the ball and tend to be alot more emotional and take it out on their racquets and selves much more frequently.

    Pusher vs Power player is always the fun match up to watch!
     
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  36. FiveO

    FiveO Hall of Fame

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    True, to a point or rather a level. Don't get me wrong. The "pusher" wins lots of matches at lower levels. Up until the 3.5-4.0, maybe into the 4.5 level, a true "pusher" can have success exploiting weaknesses and limitations in the more offensive player's game. After that the "pusher" will have no joy. At higher levels up into the pro level, defensive players accomplish similar results as the pusher but in a different way, by actively denying the more offensive player what he wants to do. That is different from how a true pusher wins at lower levels by merely giving the offensive player opportunity to cut his/her own throat. Defensive players are not pushers. Different animal. IMO the true "pusher" has a lower ceiling than the more offensive player and, in my view, he/she provides the hurdle the more offensive player must eventually overcome to move up a level. In that sense the true "pusher" is a stepping stone and unless he goes through a major overhaul of game and mindset will be relegated to that level and left behind.
     
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