Be mindful of the snakes in the grass

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    6,783
    Cindy, this was in DC? If so, then it is true that there are no tardiness penalties in DC. It is just a flat 15 minutes. If they get there 14 minutes late, then you warm up and start the match, no loss of any games or toss. So 'Sarah' is correct there.
     
    #51
  2. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    10,580
    Is Sarah GOATing the 3.5s again?
     
    #52
  3. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    Honestly, Topaz. I may have to give up on DC. It is just the worst-run league around here.

    When you have a two-hour match, you get a five minute warm-up. Huh? Every other league gives 10-15 minutes.

    When you have a 90-minute timed match, your opponent can arrive 15 minutes late and then receive a five-minute warm-up. So you can have just 70 minutes for two sets and a tiebreak? One reason penalty games are important is that a game for every five minutes is to offset the effect of the tardiness.

    The rules also don't even make sense. You are supposed to warm up 5 minutes and then start your matches, but the default period is 15 minutes. This is incongruous. What do you do if someone is running late? Should all courts stop and wait before starting their matches?

    Rule enforcement seems odd in DC. We had a match this spring where our No. 1 singles did not show. Our No. 2 singles player was going to move up, which is what we thought National rules required. The league coordinator stepped in to say that the rules no longer required the lower court to be defaulted. So our opponent's strongest singles player won by default on Court One, while our strongest singles player beat their No. 2 singles player.

    Maybe I will have to try Howard County instead . . . .
     
    #53
  4. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2009
    Messages:
    984
    in other words you think this is the worst-run league because --you-- don't like the rules? And even though apparently the rules are known and in writing neither you nor your captain 'Diana' cared to read them? And filed a grievance based on what 'Diana' --assumed-- the rules should be rather than what they actually are?
     
    #54
  5. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    10,580
    You can dance if you want to you can leave your friends behind.

    Is Sarah hot? She sounds like a total cutie.

    :D
     
    #55
  6. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,504
    wtf? lol. funniest thing I've read in a while

    WFT?!:shock:
     
    #56
  7. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    Yes I think it is a poorly run league, i definitely do not like the rules, and I am entitled to vote with my feet. Indeed, I just declined to play tri-level there for that reason.

    How dumb are some of the rules? The facility has clay and hard courts, and several team matches take place at the same time. You would think the league would make court assignments, right?

    Noooooo. The way it works is that the home captains must all find one another. Then the two ladies home captains spin a racket for choice of courts. Then the winner of that spin will spin against the winner of the men's captains spin. So all this time is spent finding the 3-4 home captains or their designees and figuring out court assignments before lineups can be exchanged. This is delightful when you already are playing a timed match and there is no penalty for captains and players who arrive late. Ridiculous.

    Also, please recall that I did not file a grievance. I am not the captain.
     
    #57
  8. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    San Jose, California
    Isn't the whole point of giving notice of a default is so that the players from the other team do not have to show up?
     
    #58
  9. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,736
    The Greatest Player of All Time gets a ride home.
     
    #59
  10. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2009
    Messages:
    984
    sure you are entitled not to play. But there's a difference between saying 'it's poorly run league' and 'the league has rules I do not like'. You are implying that the league either has no rules, or the rules are not enforced, or nobody cares - which is how the poorly run ones are. While in fact it looks like this league has rules clearly stated, captains that care can read and follow them, and there's a way to resolve grievances. What else would like require to have a 'well run league'?

    how long can it possibly take to perform two-three racket spins? You propose that the league assigns the courts. Very well, it's an option. which would lead to complains first time a captain forgets to check the court assignment. Or his team does not like the courts and suspects the league was unfair in assigning courts. What they have is as good as anything else. So is your suggestion.

    yes. But judging from your posts on these boards you are rather active in any captain/rule arguments. I just think if you knew what the rules are you would have explained those to your captain so she does not make fool of herself filing a baseless grievance (about penalty for tardiness).
     
    #60
  11. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,545
    Location:
    Arizona
    I'd think that 30 seconds should be sufficient for all three spins. (Why do I feel that sometimes it might take over 10 minutes?) ;-)
     
    #61
  12. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    The grievance has been decided. Here is the decision (edits indicated):

    ***********
    "I'm reversing the scoring on the match between [teams] that took place on August 1st, 2012 Court #3. The score entered reads Double Default which should be changed and awarded to [Diana's] Team as a straight default.

    Although both teams had no players present on Court #3 for a match it's clear from the email exchange below that [Sarah], Team Captain for [Opponent] initiated the conversation regarding the possible lack of players for the match. There was no reason for [Sarah] to initiate such a conversation unless it was to advise [Diana] that there was a distinct possibility that #3 doubles would not be played. Included below is an email confirmation by [Sarah] explicitly stating the lack of players thus defaulting #3. The only reason for the conversation to take place was to alleviate the need for [Diana] to field a #3 team. Given that there was prior agreement before the match, there was no need for [Diana] to place additional burden on her #3 team and unneccesarily send them to [the tennis facility] to field a team with no opponents."

    **********************

    The decision was from the same league coordinator who decided at the time that it must be a double-default. I don't understand why he didn't just ask Sarah on the spot whether Diana's version of events was correct. Or maybe he did and she lied?

    Whatever. I guess that's what grievances are for. Justice was served.
     
    #62
  13. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    It takes a lot of time.

    The captains, who may not know each other, must find each other and gather. Since captains don't have to exchange line-ups until 5 minutes before the match, this is an additional thing to handle that does take time.

    The other problem is that the league coordinator sends an email to the captains before each match stating what sorts of courts each team match may have. Say there are three team matches. That requires nine courts. Say that five are hard and four are clay. The league coordinator will declare that each team has to have one clay court, except one team has to have two clay courts.

    The last time I substitute captained, the team captains stood there trying to figure this out for a full ten minutes. "OK, which courts are clay?" "Uh, I don't know. Let me go look." "All right. Cindy won the spin against the other lady captain, and she also won the spin against the male captain. So who gets to pick their courts second?" "Shouldn't it be a second spin?" "No, we should just put all the ladies together over there." "Why should the ladies all be together? We each have to have a clay court. That's what the email says." "What email?" "My guys like hard and her players like clay so we're just going to switch."

    Once we got a resolution that made everyone happy, we told the visiting captains and they decided we had done it wrong and wanted the whole thing done over.

    So so very unnecessary.
     
    #63
  14. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    840
    Now THAT'S legit drama. Glad justice was served.

    Women's league tennis: getting you a taste of criminal courts since ...
     
    #64
  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    I said long ago to file a grievance and attach the emails
     
    #65
  16. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,058
    Location:
    NorCal Bay Area
    Good to hear. Pity it had to go through a grievance process for something so trivial and obvious. I'm sure all the people involved could have found better things to do with their time. Hopefully Sarah's reputation suffers after trying to pull a stunt like that.
     
    #66
  17. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    10,580
    Me and Sarah have a date at Citronelle tonite ... I always thought I'd find love on Talk Tennis ... :)

    [​IMG]
     
    #67
  18. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    13,495
    Location:
    So Cal
    ^^^^ matching T-2000's - these kids are going to make it!
     
    #68
  19. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Messages:
    515
    I did not know it was actually "against the rules" to do this. Of course, its a terrible move, but I did not know you could file a grievance (and win) over something like this.

    Whenever we're going to forfeit because we're short, if the match "matters" we dont let them know we're going to forfeit beforehand. That's just the way it is. If a captain knows a lineup (or a forfeit) in advance they can always adjust their lineup to make it stronger or w/e.

    In the past we've actually "double defaulted" whole matches because the result was inconsequential. If the match is for fun, we let the other captain know in advance so their player(s) dont need to show up.

    One time... the entire other team didnt show up... because according to their schedule they were at the right place (they wernt, lol) and in order to avoid a sanction against the other captain... our captain decided to...




    completely doctor the scores to make it appear that an actual match took place. I wasnt very happy with this. lol. We "won" all 5, but 1S-2S-1D "won" and 2D-3D defaulted to us.

    That was pretty bad... lol.
     
    #69
  20. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    920
    amateur league tennis. srs bsns
     
    #70
  21. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    yeah, but I am glad the league understood that all rules should be interpreted with sportsmanship in mind.

    I would love to know if Sarah is embarrassed.

    Probably not.
     
    #71
  22. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Messages:
    515
    Some people have a sense of pride and try to advance to playoff rounds. Believe it or not, sometimes people dont half-ass things and actually try hard.

    It's definitely "srs bsns" when you're considering traveling for a section or national playoff and if you're part of a "going for it" team every game counts. Even if they won 4-1, and let this game "slide", it would be too late to challenge it if it came down to a "games won" tie-break a month down the road.
     
    #72
  23. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    920
    why? win 4.0 nationals and all u have proven is that u are the best players in the country not to be rated 4.5

    usta playoffs are stupid
     
    #73
  24. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Messages:
    515
    Oh? So what then?

    Eliminate NTRP all together and everyone plays "open"? Or, we should keep NTRP and no one should try unless you're top100?

    Some people actually get better as they play. It's quite possible to "advance" a level without intentionally defeating the NTRP system. I'm still a 3.0 C myself, but I feel like my play has gone beyond that level. I voluntarily played 3.5 adult this season as a 3.0 C.

    Do you even play tennis? lol.
     
    #74
  25. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    920
    im not sayin dont try. im just sayin that theres not much point gettin excited about usta playoffs since its pretty much the most stupid system known 2 man

    ppl who dont make playoffs n get bumped up have achieved more than ppl who make it to playoffs and stay at the same level next season

    tennis is pretty much the only sport that divides recreational players into varying stratas based solely on relative crappiness, then has national championships for each strata

    there is no more meaningless achievement in sport than bein the national 3.5/4.0/4.5/whatever champion. you may as well hang a sign around ur neck that says "i am the best player in the country amongst players who are roughly as crap as I am". I mean srsly. the whole concept is self contradictory
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
    #75
  26. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,058
    Location:
    NorCal Bay Area
    Sorry dude, that's lame. We're talking rec tennis here. You don't make your opponents waste time and gas going to a match where you already know ahead of time they are not going to get to play. If this gives the opposing captain a slight additional edge, so be it.
     
    #76
  27. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    10,580
    I believe in the power of the 4.5 that he or she can win The Wimbleton one day if they work hard and eat right and emulate their favorite player both on and off the court. It can happen if you dare to dream.
     
    #77
  28. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,803
    I am a competitive person, and I have mixed feelings about the USTA League National championships.

    On one hand, some of the most memorable and fun experiences I've had in tennis have occurred in the League playoffs. The first time I qualified for Sectionals, I won the clinching match for our team 12-10 in the third set tiebreaker. We were tied at 2-2 as a team, so everyone was lined up next to the court to watch my match finish. When I won, everyone ran onto the court and picked me up. I had an overwhelmingly euphoric feeling in winning that match, with goose bumps and a tingling sensation throughout my body. I've won a lot of individual tennis tournaments, but never had that kind of feeling when I've completed a match before. I can only imagine that is what a professional might feel in winning Wimbledon or clinching the Davis Cup. I attribute it to being part of a team and helping everyone achieve their collective goal. We ended up getting smoked by a better team at Sectionals that year, but I've been back to Sectionals on different teams two more times since then. One year, we came inches away from going to Nationals with one of our players missing a volley on match point that would have clinched it. Therefore, getting to Nationals has been a goal and sort of an obsession.

    On the other hand, you are correct that USTA League Nationals in 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 (etc) doesn't really mean anything in the large scheme of things. If you qualify, you have to pay all of your own expenses, and if you win, you get a handshake and a plate or pen. At my club, they also put up a banner with all of the team member's names on it, and your picture gets published in the Sectional yearbook. However, even though you are a "national champion" you aren't ready to turn pro, nobody will want your autograph, and you are really just the king of the weekend warriors for a year! :)

    In defense of the different levels, one analogy that I want to put out there is to compare the USTA League national championships to the different national championship levels they have in the NCAA. The NCAA has Division 1, 2, and 3, just like the USTA has levels like 3.0-5.0. Most people only care about the NCAA D1 titles, similar to 5.0 or Open in USTA. However, that doesn't mean that the national titles in D2 and D3 are meaningless. Often, those players are solid, and the top players could play at D1. The difference is in the depth and overall talent. Likewise, the 3.5 national championship team would probably win steadily at 4.0, and some of their best players might be able to contribute on a good 4.5 team. Just another way of looking at things, even if it's really just amateur recreational tennis.
     
    #78
  29. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    10,580
    This is how I feel when I see new the OP's new daily thread.

    Or anything written by Nostradamus or TeflonTom.

    :D
     
    #79
  30. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,803
    Funny! Yes, Cindy's posts are a joy. So much drama!

    Hmmm... I also started to feel that tingling sensation when I saw your profile picture... what's happening? :)
     
    #80
  31. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2006
    Messages:
    840
    Nobody picked this one?

    This coming from the same person who imposed game penalty on a team when they were little late as they went to another court and got a ticket while speeding to reach the right court and was politely asked by the other captain if she could not impose the game penalty?

    What caused the huge change of mind with a casual attitude towards game penalty? Is playing recreational tennis suddenly more important than winning at all costs by observing some rules when they work in your favor? :shock:
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
    #81
  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    ^^^ Fighting words.

    C'mon Cindy.
     
    #82
  33. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Messages:
    515
    A slight edge? That can practically give them the match in many cases.

    You do realize that you need to win 3 out of 5 right? And you realize that not every team is full of sandbaggers and has 5 solid line ups? Most of the time teams have 3 solid lineups and 2 "iffys". If the two people who cant make it are parts of different doubles teams, or singles players, you're practically losing 3/5 already.

    When it comes to the top 3 teams in a flight, you cannot afford to give them the match if you have any intention of advancing.

    Sorry, but this is purely white knighting on your part or you're misunderstanding what im saying.

    If your team is "going for nationals" and you know that two people from your set lineups cannot make it forcing you to forfeit at least one and weaken the other four, you cannot possibly let the opponents know in advance. Sorry.

    As I said, if the match is inconsequential, or if we're not "going for it", we would let them know. If this match determines whos going to playoffs, or if this is a playoff match, letting them know you're forfeiting in advance is like just giving them all 5. All of the top teams in each bracket here just barely get by the others. It's very rare even in 6.0/3.5 to see one team who just blows everyone else away. Even the "set" teams have to fight for it.
     
    #83
  34. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,058
    Location:
    NorCal Bay Area
    Really? How so? Please educate me. What is the huge edge you think you are giving away that is practically just handing them the match? Yes, I do realize how many lines you need to win. I've been around leagues a fair bit. But obviously I don't have the same advanced understanding of strategery that you seem to have.

    My view is, that by telling your opponent that you are defaulting a dubs line, you're not telling them exactly what your lineup is, or who your weak/strong players are, or anything like that. All you are telling them, is that 2 of their players don't have to show up. That's it. You're not exactly handing them the match on a silver platter.

    The only advantage they get out of this knowledge is that they can sit their weakest team out, versus having to guess where you are going to put your weakest team (assuming you stack, which you probably do, given your responses so far).

    What other advantage is it you think you are giving them, that is so critical that it justifies completely wasting the time of two other people?
     
    #84
  35. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Messages:
    515
    Ok, say you have 3 "strong" teams. If two people from those cannot make it, if they are not the same doubles team, you're weakening two positions.

    Instead of 3 strong, 2 weak, you have 1 forfeit and 4 weak.

    For a "strong team" here, you need at least 3 strong players and 5 average players. Those 3 strong players are spread between singles and doubles, or hold up their partners in doubles. You will rarely see two strong players on the same doubles team here because they will spread them out.

    If two of those strong players have to be absent the opposing captain knows where the vulnerabilities will be. If the other team is a strong team they're confident they can get at least 1 more (other than default) as a guarantee. this means they only need 1/3 to "win" while our team still needs 3/3.

    Knowing a lineup in advance is a huge advantage. You'd have to be an idiot to "exchange" lineups and just let the other coach put whoever they want in as a response you seeing your lineup. Knowing another team is going to default in advance is almost the same thing because you dont need to waste any "good players" in the 3rd doubles spot.

    You said you have league experience, either you're dumb, playing dumb, or you're a liar, lol. How does this not make sense to you? Knowing a lineup in advance, or knowing a default in advance is a huge advantage in a decisive match.

    If you know Sock, Isner, and Harrison are all out due to mono, why wouldnt you plan your lineup accordingly? It's the same thing. lol.
     
    #85
  36. Mike Y

    Mike Y Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2011
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Bay Area
    Probably because some people value playing fair and not wasting people's time over recreational playoff glory.
     
    #86
  37. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,058
    Location:
    NorCal Bay Area
    Already your "new math" has me confused. If you had 3 strong and 2 weak lines, and if the 2 people who can't make it are from the strong lines, wouldn't that still leave you with 1 strong, 3 weak, 1 forfeit? How do you get 4 weak?

    Telling the other captain in advance that you will be defaulting a line is not the same as telling him your exact lineup in advance. How could the other captain know which players you will be missing and whether they are strong or weak?
    Other captain doesn't have to waste good players in 3rd dubs even if he doesn't know you are defaulting. #3 dubs is traditionally the weakest pair.

    Thankfully, I am not dumb, nor am I playing dumb, and I do indeed have a lot of league experience. Could it be there is another option, like, say, your argument makes no sense?

    I assume you meant just Sock and Isner are out, since we're talking 2 people not 3, and I assume you can count (see, I don't think you're dumb either). But again you are wrong - if you tell me 2 people on your team are not going to make it and you are defaulting a line, I don't know whether those 2 people are Sock and Isner, or NTRPolice and NTRPolice's other brother Darryl.

    But regardless, the real answer is:
     
    #87
  38. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,172
    Location:
    DE
    This will be true whether you know in advance or not... It does not take a rocket scientist to look at the other team warming up and figure out they cannot field a full line up. Chances are if you don't tell me in advance I am going to give my weakest team the default and you will be left facing my toughest lineup ....

    Even if you flat out lie and say ... I have a team coming .... I am still going to make sure I put the worst team on the potentially defaulting court.

    If you give me advanced warming it is not like I am going to change and bring out a stronger lineup, if i had a stronger lineup they wold be playing already. Instead there is a real possibility I may give a better player the night off ... But once I got a team in the house you are gonna get the best 4 courts I have.

    I gotta go with orange here .... You should speak up in advance.

    The only reason not to do so is you don't want to admit you are forfeiting a court when the other team was also going to forfeit a court. But if everyone played by the same rules this would not be a problem either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
    #88
  39. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,803
    Requoted for truth.

    In fact, if your team is really a Sectional or National championship contender, your roster would be large enough so that you'd never have to default a line anyway. Additionally, you'd have the depth required to field 5 strong lines every time, and wouldn't have to resort to goofing around with 3 strong teams and 2 weak teams, or any of that nonsense. Seriously... if you can't field teams for every match and don't have at least 10 players on the roster that are at the top of the NTRP range, you need to lighten up and just enjoy the competition. You may squeak by in some matches with some line-up subterfuge, but you aren't going anywhere if you don't have a deep roster with lots of quality.

    By the way, when I captain (which I've done for 5 seasons now), I purposely recruit at least 15 good players. That way, I always have a full line-up for all of my matches (and I'm paranoid enough that I usually ask an extra player to come, if possible, in case we have a last minute problem). I've never defaulted a line in a match, even when we had someone get sick in warm-ups (ahead of the line-up exchange, of course). All 5 of my teams have made the local playoffs at a minimum doing this.

    On this subject, as dizzlmcwizzl wrote, I always scout the other team in warm-ups anyway. I'll know their roster ahead of time, see where they've placed players in the past, and know their top guys. If it were 5 minutes before a match and I could see they only had 6 guys (and their captain hadn't approached me yet to let me know someone was running late), I'd know that something is up.

    Speaking of late players, I once had a team try to pull a fast one, telling me that their #1 singles player was tardy, but on his way. At that point, we were already 5 minutes past the official start time. However, it seemed fishy that the captain was pushing hard to exchange line-ups even though he didn't have all his players there yet. Usually, it's just the opposite, where a captain won't want to show the line-up until he can see everyone. I got the feeling that he was trying to get me to commit my top guy at the #1 singles position in the line-up, wasting his ability with a default, so that his other players wouldn't have to face him. (One of their players later admitted that this was their strategy.) Therefore, to combat this, I told them I would wait for 15 extra minutes before we exchanged line-ups to give him time for his player to arrive. When the time was up, I pressed it and told him "it looks like you are defaulting a line... so is it going to be #2 singles or #3 doubles?" At that point, he was forced to give us #2 singles as a default. Overall, I knew that all their potential singles players sucked and I had already decided to put my top guy in doubles anyway. So, their messing around made no difference. We swept them 5-0, winning all the matches we played in straight sets. The stalling and lying about their player coming or not was unnecessary. All it did was make the captain of that team look lame, and waste everyone's time. (Funny, because that particular team always brags about having a great roster every year, but they've never made the playoffs!)
     
    #89
  40. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    When I captain MY teams, I am relatively lenient about enforcing penalties. As I have said many times, I round down. I also consider whether I think the opposing captains have been reasonable and thoughtful, then and in the past.

    When I am substitut captain for someone else's team, I will do what the captain or team wishes to do.

    Clear?
     
    #90
  41. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Messages:
    515
    What is up with the high and mighty people on this forum? It almost seems like everyone has some excuse not to try to win "recreational" leagues or is a 5.5 player trying to turn pro.

    Because only an idiot would run 1 strong, 3 weak when they are forfeiting one knowing that the other team is going to have 3 strong lineups and only needing two of those to win.

    He doesnt need to know who is absent. He only needs to know that he dosent have to waste any good players on 3rd doubles. That is a huge advantage, even if he doesnt know who is playing where.

    Sorry, but only an idiot would always put their worst players in 3rd doubles. It never happens this way here. People actually look as past matches and plan their lineups around the highest probability of what they're going to match up against.

    If you know your singles players cannot beat theirs, why would you put your best player(s) against theirs? That's dumb.

    It's quite common here to go up against a strong 3rd doubles than 1st doubles and same thing goes for singles.

    Would only work on an idiot. Let me guess, do you just give your lineup to the other captain and let him put whoever he wants in whatever slot? Of course not.

    We exchange lineups before all the players are even present since the captains are usually there earlier to secure courts before the rest of the team.

    Oh, im sorry if our teams here are not 15 sandbaggers strong. We usually have 10-12 people per team here and most of them are "decent".

    If someone "gets sick in warmup" here, we'd probably forfeit it because other team members dont show up if they're not assigned to play, the schedule overtime, go on picknicks or w/e.

    The day of, it the other captain says they're forfeiting 3rd doubles, our 3rd doubles team just usually goes home, stays to watch, buys beer, whatever.

    No one really gets all mad as you people are getting over this subject, lol, unless its like a last place team wasting time on a team tied for first or w/e.
     
    #91
  42. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,172
    Location:
    DE
    Would only work on an idiot. Let me guess, do you just give your lineup to the other captain and let him put whoever he wants in whatever slot? Of course not.

    We exchange lineups before all the players are even present since the captains are usually there earlier to secure courts before the rest of the team.


    You are insisting on repaeatedly calling folks that want to play the by rules idiots.

    The fact is I have played 300 + matches for 20 + different captains in three different districts. Every captain waits till his players arrive and exchange lineups 5 minutes before mach time (like our district rules sugest). If you are short players they go on 3 dubs or 2 singles. If you want them to play elsewhere, other than those spots in the lineup, then you must wait until they arrive. Easy-peasy .... not an indication of the captains intellegence.
     
    #92
  43. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2012
    Messages:
    515
    Your league rules state that all players must be physically present at a court before you exchange lineups? Strange rule.

    You said: "It does not take a rocket scientist to look at the other team warming up and figure out they cannot field a full line up. Chances are if you don't tell me in advance I am going to give my weakest team the default and you will be left facing my toughest lineup ...."

    You count the players warming up and base your lineup on that? What a strategy. I've warmed up teams im not even playing on before, lol. We've had cases where lineups were exchanged 30 mins prior to start, before half of each team was even there.

    If I dont tell you in "advance" (prior to exchanging lineups) that im short players, how can you possibly "give me your toughest lineup" without being completely lucky? You said "counting the people warming up." I lol'ed.

    I assume its a league rule that you get to count players before making your line up or something since you said im making fun of you for "following the rules".

    Besides, here isnt a rule that says you have to let people know in advance of a default, it's only a courtesy, much like offering a let. If anyone has an actual "rule" that says you "must" notify an opposing team in advance of a default, please show it to me.

    The reason why the appeal was granted in this case is because there was unsportsmanlike conduct, where there was "deception". I bet if this situation happened "live" instead of "beforehand emails" there would be no grounds for a grievance.
     
    #93
  44. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2005
    Messages:
    2,438
    Location:
    Atlanta
    If you have failed as a captain to the point where you can't even field a full lineup then I think it makes you a tremendous Dbag to make someone else drive to the courts to try and lessen the impact if your failure. If you can't field a lineup thats fine but let other people choose how to spend their day. Tennis is a Hobby- making people plan their day around not playing is absolutely ridiculous.
     
    #94
  45. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    It seems that Sarah is not willing to let this go. She seems not to understand the decision and has followed up with the league administrator:

    *************

    "Hi [Administrator] -- Can you pls let me know if this decision was based on final decision made by the USTA Grievance Committee? I have not received the final papers from USTA office with the Grievance Committee's final decision.

    Also, does this set a precedence for the summer DC League as well, So if my opponent informs me that they do not have enough players, I can tell my players to stay home and not show up, and still get awarded the default?"

    ********************

    I guess she is planning to appeal or ask that the issue reach the regional grievance committee?
     
    #95
  46. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    NTRP Police, I think there are relatively few times when a captain should not advise another captain of a known pre-match default.

    There is only one time in my years of captaining when I knew I was short a doubles team and didn't notify the opposing captain.

    It was our first match of an 18-match season, and we were hoping to make the playoffs. The match was set smack dab in the middle of spring break for the public schools.

    I had a roster of 19 or 20. Opposing captain had a smaller roster, maybe 15. I knew enough of their players to know they were women of childbearing age like us. I figured they would have the same issues with player availability I was having.

    I decided not to contact the opposing captain and discuss it with her. I did not know her at all, so I would be running the risk that she would lie to me and say she had 8 players when she did not. If I wasn't prepared to believe her answer, there was no point in making the call.

    As it turns out, they did not have 8 players either.

    My acting captained handed them our line-up showing a DF on Doubles Three. Opposing captain snatched her line-up back and started scrambling her line-up. IIRC, she had put an absent player and a tardy player on Doubles Three. So that court went as a double-default. In the meantime, one of her Doubles Two players decided to go home because she was sick, believing she wouldn't be needed to play because we were defaulting a court.

    The upshot is that we won Doubles Two by default and Doubles Three was a double-default.

    In general, my policy would be to advise captains of defaults in advance. Usually when we default, however, it is a last minute thing where someone is moving heaven and earth to get there on time. Sometimes they make it and sometimes they don't.
     
    #96
  47. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,172
    Location:
    DE
    @NTRPpolice



    yes our league and every other league i have played or heard of sets a time for lineups to be exchanged. 5 minutes prior is our .... in other cases 15 minutes. these leagues also say that any defaulted courts also must be 3 dubs or 2 singles first. Also our league and most others (probalbly yours too) say that you are to let a captain kow in advance if you are defaulting a court. These are pretty standard league rules both in my experience and from reading these boards.

    let me know what district you are in and I will find those rules for you.

    By definition if at 5 minutes of the match, if you are missing a player they go on 3 dubs or 2 singles. Unless you are completely ignorant and attempting to cheat the other team I ask you ... do you have a full team and adjust my lineup accordingly.

    Claiming that anyone is an idot who does not try and cheat the opposing team out of a qualiity match does not make it true.
     
    #97
  48. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,620
    Ummm... they have their priorities straight?
     
    #98
  49. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,070
    Our rules (that is, the league where I captain most often) do not require that captains apprise opponents if they will be defaulting a line. Our rules "encourage" it. The rules also say that once a default has been proffered, it cannot be withdrawn unless the opponent agrees. The rules also say that players must be present to claim a default unless the captains agree otherwise.

    The rules say that line-ups must be exchanged 5 minutes beforehand, but players need not be present. There are fixed penalties for tardiness. Captains are perfectly free to put missing players on a higher court, but the higher courts have to be defaulted before the lower courts so there has to be an adjustment before the matches start.

    Some captains deliberately have their players gather out of sight so the opponents cannot adjust their line-up once they know which opponents are playing that match. Those captains need to take a chill pill, IMHO.
     
    #99
  50. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,803
    First of all, I am one of people on here that does advocate trying to win in USTA League (aka the "recreational" league). My club has a nice core of top level 4.5 talent (for our city), but we need to augment this with depth to be competitive in League. I play a lot of tournaments, so I meet numerous players, and I try to recruit the best ones to our team. It takes effort, but I always make sure we have the type of dedicated players on our team that understand the goal of winning. I'm also willing to combine teams with another squad with similar goals that might be short of players. The last time we went to Sectionals, none of our players were self rated. This year, I had 3 self rated players, but made sure they filled out the form accurately and honestly. I play by the rules and try to get the best players available at our level who will fit in with our team philosophy - so it's not a matter of sandbaggers. Bottom line, I don't believe that winning happens on accident. It takes commitment, effort, and preparation... and that includes making sure that you always have enough players to field 5 strong lines for every match.

    From your posts, it sounds like you may be a competitive captain on a team that doesn't share your goals. If so, you either need to lighten up and just play... or recruit a lot harder to find the guys you need to field stronger lines each time. Winning teams rarely, if ever, have to default a line.

    (FYI - you might have a hard time recruiting the players you need, or motivating the players you already have, if you are unreasonable, unsportsmanlike, waste people's time, or are unable to communicate your points in a logical manner without calling others "idiots.")
     

Share This Page