Beating the champs in Finals

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by chandu612, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. chandu612

    chandu612 Guest

    Federer's 17 titles:

    Merit of the opponents in Finals
    0 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 2 + 1 + 0 + 3 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 0 + 0
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2013
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  2. Cosmic_Colin

    Cosmic_Colin Professional

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    It's not very useful to list how many slams someone has when they were beaten; better to list how many they currently have (inc. retired players).

    For example, hypothetically a 23 year-old who is just about to win a slam later that year would be a zero, but a 35 year old with 12 slams would be listed as 12, but the former would be the tougher opponent.

    It's not really possible to review until we see what the beaten players do with their careers.
     
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  3. chandu612

    chandu612 Guest

    So you are saying beating Nadal in 2005 should be weighed same as beating him in 2010..Also beating djokovic in 2006 is rated same as beating him now?
     
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  4. chandu612

    chandu612 Guest

    Also, the point is we all know whom he beat. And pretty much the opponents ended up with. What I am showing is also another metric worth knowing.
     
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  5. Cosmic_Colin

    Cosmic_Colin Professional

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    Neither way is perfect, as my way doesn't work well when they are too young.

    It might be better to look at their ranking, or how many slams they won in that year (perhaps include 1 year either side).

    Otherwise, we're saying beating Djokovic just before AO2011 is equal to beating a one slam wonder in their twilight years.
     
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  6. chandu612

    chandu612 Guest

    Thats the whole point. No system is better or worse.
    So you can take all the facts you have slams, number of slams of opponents at the time etc...and make whatever opinion you want to make out of it.
    I am just thorwing some facts out there.
     
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  7. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks for the thread. Looks like Fed has more competition when he started winning majors. Towards the later part it looks like he faced clowns.
     
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  8. Def

    Def Semi-Pro

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    Didn't Agassi have 8 slams when Fed beat him in the 2005 USO. :confused:
     
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  9. OKUSA

    OKUSA Hall of Fame

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    Nadal has only beaten Fed, Djokovic, Murray, Soderling, Berdych, Puerta, and Ferrer in finals

    Five of which have or had no Majors at the time of beaten
     
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  10. Def

    Def Semi-Pro

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    According to the OP's logic its

    0 + 7 + 10 + 12 + 12 + 13 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 16 + 5 + 0

    All of those wins against Federer really show how this system is useless.

    Also, when did Nadal beat Murray in a final?
     
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  11. OKUSA

    OKUSA Hall of Fame

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    Guess he didn't, forgot it was Djokovic in the US Open final
     
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  12. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    But those guys in finals destroyed all the competition in the world. So it doesn't matter, their current form was the elite.

    But, I guess you can make any stats to make any players look good or bad.

    Del Potro is undefeated in slam finals.
     
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  13. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Nice work , OP.

    But this will be meaningful only if you count the relevant slam of the opponent because the player is only being beaten on that slam/surface for the title. i.e, only consider the opponent's FO titles when playing at FO, fair enough ?

    So let's start with the FO:

    Nadal = 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 0 + 0 = 1

    Muster = 1

    Yannick Noah = 1

    Lendl = 0 + 0 + 1 = 1

    Kuerten = 2 + 0 + 0 = 2


    So for FO,

    Kuerten > ( Muster = Nadal = Noah = Lendl)

    I always knew Guga was the clay GOAT.

    OP is a genius for proving it !!
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
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  14. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    True. If you are going to do this, let's at least do it with least flaws possible. Count slams on the same surface or better on the same slam.
    Because slams at RG, don't help you play better on grass for example.

    Del Potro has to be on the goat list too. His final is 5 or 15.
     
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  15. sosa09

    sosa09 Semi-Pro

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    Tell me, when nadal and murray played in a grand slam final? :twisted:
     
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  16. Cosmic_Colin

    Cosmic_Colin Professional

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    Also, why only look at finals?

    Nadal had an easy opponent in FO13 final, but a tough semifinal. Federer had Djokovic and Murray in the last two rounds of Wimbledon 2012.
     
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  17. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Great point. Fed had a lot of times Djokovic in semis. Also Roddick. He had Roddick and Djokovic back to back. He had twice Djokovic and Murray back to back. Also at WTF he had always the best players.

    And why look only finals and semis? And why look only their slam count? Players get on fire 1 tournament or one match. Even lower ranked. So on that day, they are tough. It's not fair just to look numbers and ignore current form.
     
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  18. furryballs

    furryballs Banned

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    lets see one about not making finals
     
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  19. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Excellent point. For the USO,

    Delpotro = 5

    Nadal = 0

    Federer = 1 + 2 + 1 + 0 + 0 = 3

    Djokovic = 1

    Murray = 1

    Delpo is the USO GOAT :D
     
    #19
  20. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    He has never played Murray in a Grand Slam final.
     
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  21. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    #21
  22. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Actually Fed beat himself in 2009 AO and 2009 USO finals so it's 14 + 13 + 15 = 42

    Period, end of story.
     
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  23. underground

    underground Legend

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    Complete stupid logic by OP.

    So beating an old and post-prime Federer in FO 2011 is better than prime Fed in FO 2007?
     
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