Becker: Djokovic's 2011 is the greatest season in tennis history

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 5555, Nov 19, 2011.

  1. piece

    piece Professional

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    The claim was actually that Borg has a better winning percentage over a 3-4 year period than Federer. Not a five year period. Is the claim urban made true, do you know?
     
  2. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Urban could have made an error. The man has been wonderful for years and you can't give him the benefit of the doubt. I have no doubt he was telling the truth.

    Let it go.

    Blame me for it. Who cares? Let it be.

    I've made a few trillion errors myself and probably will make more than that in the future. And you're complaining about a tiny mistake of ONE YEAR!!!!:(

    I could look at a lot of posts and pick on MINOR ERRORS but I don't. Let it go.

    So is everyone here going to be perfect in the future??

    I don't think I'm going to make any more comments on this absurd argument.
     
  3. piece

    piece Professional

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    I haven't made any argument, let alone an absurd one. I am genuinely interested in who had the better winning percentage over the time frame urban first mentioned. When urban didn't answer this question for me I thought you might. I don't think urban was lying, but that doesn't mean what he said was true. You might think I'm nitpicking - that's fine - but I find these kind of stats interesting, so I would like to know.
     
  4. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    That's certainly how I read it. I can understand if you're getting tired of all this, PC1. Urban is one of our most careful researchers and he's done all the work. If I don't understand something in his post, I ask him what I want to know without jumping to the conclusion that he has lied. That seems to me a pretty basic necessity in communication.
     
  5. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Why do jizztorians hate fed so much? One can only guess...
     
  6. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    And still...he hasn't replied even though I've accused him of lying...
     
  7. PrinceMoron

    PrinceMoron Hall of Fame

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    Vilas has/should have had the best year record, but for Nastase cheating. Whenever I see Nastase at a tournament I make sure I call him a cheat out loud enough for him to hear.
     
  8. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    There is no consensus on win-loss records for those eras, because there's some grey area as to which tournaments are exos and which are not.

    I believe that Federer's best three-year W-L is better than Borg's. Maybe his five-year W-L is worse than Borg's. Not sure.
     
  9. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    For those who are genuinly interested in those stats, not for the ignorant fools. Provisional numbers for Borg i found in Collins Tennis History and other sources (have a lot of work in my professional and academic life).
    1977: 81-7
    1978: 107-8 (including 9-0 in Davis Cup)
    1979: 104-6
    1980: 74-6.

    List may be incomplete. Maybe some Borg specialists find more matches, they are welcome to make the picture clearer.
     
  10. vllaznia

    vllaznia Semi-Pro

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    Here are Federer's best years:
    2004: 74-6=0,925
    2005: 81-4=0,952
    2006: 92-5=0,948
    2007: 77-9=0,89
    Averall in these years 324-24=0,93103

    So your claim that "Borg's win-loss percentages over 3-4 years were better than anything Federer did in his great years" is not true.
     
  11. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Isn't it? Four letters
     
  12. vllaznia

    vllaznia Semi-Pro

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    What do you mean?
     
  13. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Borg in 1974? (I have him with 21 losses that year, including two to Laver, two to Newcombe, two to Vilas, among many others.)

    Maybe in 1979? (I have Borg with seven losses that year, including one W/O to Kriek in Basel.)

    Perhaps Connors in 1974?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  14. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I'm not "calling anyone out as a liar," but isn't a winning percentage of 0.93129 slightly better than 0.93103? (These are vllaznia's numbers.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  15. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^
    Wow, other resources had 1979 Borg played a total of 90 matches, but Collins count 110. Even the ATP website had Borg played 90 matches. I even review Fed's 2006 carefully from the ATP website and they are dead on right about Fed's 92-5 records. I don't have time to review all the years but I'm quite sure they are accurate.

    My guess is Collins is count exhibition or other non-atp events....the reason for the different in 20 matches !

    Let's be fair to all players by only counting ATP single tournaments.
     
  16. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, it was mistake hoodjem...i meant to say 1974 Connors.
     
  17. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Many of these tournament were legit tournaments like WTC tournaments that weren't counted by the ATP. It was NOT the standardized record keeping like we have today. These were real legit tournaments. If we counted only ATP, many of the old WTC tournaments with greats like Newcombe, Connors, Borg, Laver, Rosewall and Roche wouldn't be counted.

    Borg was very dominant, if I recall correctly at one point Borg won 125 out of 128 matches on all surfaces.
     
  18. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I wasn't referring to you and if you thought so I apologize. And you're not nitpicking.:)
     
  19. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    No one is calling anyone a liar but I noticed Collins have Borg's total number of matches higher than other sites provided.

    Perhaps if Collins were to compile a list of Federer's total number of matches played per year, probably he has Fed higher than the ATP website have listed. lol


    At any rate, I try to stick to one source b/c of the consistency. It's nothing against Collins or the ATP site, it's just they have their own way.
     
  20. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Check my post 117 on this just a little above yours.

    Point is if we refuse to recognize legitimate tournaments of the past we are burying our heads in the sand. You cannot ignore them just because of poor ATP record keeping.

    Bill Tilden had many incredible years and it's possible that he surpasses everyone. If we had the records do we ignore them? Of course not. Does baseball ignore the results of the 1927 World Series because it's a long time ago and record keeping is different today?

    I do know some people involved in record keeping for a number of majors sports like baseball and if they find an error they correct it. If they found Ty Cobb's hit total is different because of an error years ago they change it for the integrity of the game. I feel the same about tennis.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  21. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Did he played 20 more matches just at WTC in 1979 ?

    In 1980, Collins has Borg 80 total matches but other sites recorded at 76. That's only 4 additional matches. Did Borg only played 4 matches at WTC ?
     
  22. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Not a problem. (Kudos to you for your forthright honesty.)
     
  23. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It's may not just WCT (and it could be also but you can't assume the additional matches were just at WCT) it may be other tournaments, maybe they didn't have all the WCT matches counted. The record seems correct just glancing at the numbers. For example for years they didn't count the Pepsi as a legit tournament but it was.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  24. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Or another great example, Laver's win at the Dunlop in 1970. It's not listed at the ATP but it was a huge tournament that year, and no one regarded it as an exo. The Laver-Rosewall final was one of the best matches in their rivalry.
     
  25. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That's a superb example. That tournament was for all intents and purposes a major. If the same quality of play was at Wimbledon, the match might be legendary.

    Off topic a bit but the most famous Laver-Rosewall match was probably the 1972 WCT final in which Rosewall won in a fifth set tiebreaker when he looked like he was a goner. I think it's probably many of the great Laver-Rosewall matches which very well may have been of higher quality were lost when they played in the old Pro Tour.
     
  26. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    Don't you think it's a problem Rosewall was bested by Laver so convincingly in big stages? It just seemed that Laver got a little bit lucky in the rivals department. I think Laver would have had his hand's full with a prime Gonzales, to say nothing of a prime Vince Spadea.

    Check out my signature, PC1.

    Also, chess?
     
  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Gonzalez would have been a problem for anyone that ever lived so you are perhaps correct there but they did play from 1964 on with Laver leading by a good margin. But you also say that Gonzalez was lucky that he did not play a top Laver in the 1950's. But are great and have the records to prove it.

    Rosewall did defeat Laver often in the big stages and he also beat Gonzalez often on the big stages. Rosewall may lose but he generally rose to the occasion.

    Chopin, you are a very good chessplayer. I've seen your games. You don't need to play me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  28. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    I just don't see it about Rosewall. Maybe I don't know enough about the rivalry, but what really big matches did Rosewall beat Laver in?

    PC1, last I heard you said I was an "OK" player (which I think is more accurate than very good :)), but regardless of who would win, I know that you are quite helpful in analyzing games. It's a skill that I don't yet possess in the same way that you do, and I would be honored to play a game with you and discuss it afterward. I don't care about winning or losing; I'd just like to play a game and discuss it with you afterward. The chess tournament I ran was fun, and perhaps we can play a game through the Boards, if you'd like...A move each day that we will post in our signatures? Or, if you'd like, we could play a game on the FICS. My schedule is really freeing up soon and after the 12th or so, I should have plenty of free time and could work around your schedule. It would be an honour, as well as pleasure, PC1. I truly hope you'll accept my offer, in the spirit of the holidays.

    Kindest Regards,
    Chopin

    P.S. I hear the people calling for you... "PC1!" "PC1"

    A recent game:

    1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 Be7 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nxe4 6. Nxe4 d5 7. Bb3 dxe4 8. Ne5 Bh4 9. Kf1 O-O 10. Nxf7 Rxf7 11. Qh5 g6 12. Bxf7 Kxf7 13. Qh6 Qg5 14. Qxh7 Kf8 15. Qh8 Kf7 16. Qxc8 Qb5 17. d3 exd3 18. Qxc7 Kg8 19. c4 Na6 20. Qxf4 Qf5 21. Qxf5 gxf5 22. Bf4 Re8 23. Rd1 Re4 24. Bg3 Bxg3 25. hxg3 Nc5 26. Rh4 Kf7 27. b4 Na6 28. Rxd3 Nxb4 29. Rd7 Re7 30. Rxe7 Kxe7 31. Rh7 Ke6 32. Rxb7 a5 33. a3 Nc2 34. Ra7 Ne3 35. Kf2 Nxc4 36. a4 Ke5 37. Rc7 Kd4 38. Kf3 Ne3 39. Ra7 Nc4 40. Kf4 Ne3 41. Rxa5 Nxg2 42. Kxf5 Ne3 43. Kf4 Kd3 44. Ra8 Nd5 45. Ke5 Ne3 46. Kf4 Nd5 47. Kf5 Ne3 48. Kg5 Kd4 49. g4 Ke4 50. Kh5 Kd3 51. g5 Kd4 52. Kh6 Nf5 53. Kh7 Ne3 54. g6 Kd3 55. g7 Kc3 56. g8=Q Kd3 57. a5 Kc3 58. Qg3 Kd3 59. a6 Kd4 1-0 {Black resigns}
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2011
  29. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Does anyone knows which historians include Hopman Cup as a legit tournament?
     
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    True.Vilas had a great 1977, at the same level, at least on clay court as Connors in 1974 or JMac in 1984.

    I think Borg´s 1978 or 1979 season´s were just unbelievable.In 1978 he lost just a big match (Connors at the USO) but Mac was not the same player he was turning into a year later.as a matter of fact, just Mac Enroe and Tanner were abale to beat Bjorn when it mattered in 1979.He curshed through the rest of the top 5 (Vilas,Connors,Gerulaitis), that top 6 being one of the strongest ever ( all of them GS champions)
     
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    *******s have always been very jealous that a midget man ( for *******s size standards) won 2 times the GS while their hero was able to win 0...

    Isn´t it about time *******s just make a thinking about their erroneus " size " standarts?

    (Not to mention that nobody used Laver to wipe the floor as Nadal has done with Federer, and Laver had a much, much tougher competition in terms of quality and quantity at the top )
     
  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nastase had a great clay court season in 73.Won RG,Barcelona,Rome and the Masters ( played, however, on Boston´s grass, before Longwood switched to har tru).he was untouchable on clay and should have won the 1973 Wimbledon, as well


    And what about 1956 Hoad?
     
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I think there may be some confussion over here.WCT titles counted just the same as Gran Prix titles.ATP´s tour of today would be WCT+Gran Prix (ITF run).

    What didn´t count as official tournaments were exhibitions and special events, like the WCT Tournament of Champions, played in Puerto Rico in 1979 and won by Connors or the WCT Challenge, played in Montreal in 1979 and won by Borg ( beating Connors in 4 sets in the finals).Even if, to me, they count just as much since the money at stake was big and the top players wanted to win those special events just as ai important gran prix or WCT Title.

    Another big event played then, won by Borg - again, wipping out Connors in the finals- was the Boca Raton´s Pepsi gran Slam finals. Borg,Connors,Vilas and Mc Enroe played the event over a weekend in Boca Raton, on american green clay.

    Not to mention other super events like Milan´s Brooklyne Masters (won by Borg over Mc Enroe in 2 out of 3 sets) or the Franfurt Super event, won by Borg over Connors in a great final ( the¡r best 1979 match), with Connors beating Mc Enroe and Borg defeating Gerulaitis in the semis.

    If those were not titles that the big guys wanted to win...
     
  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That is true.Many matches played between them in the 1960 pro Tour could be equal or better than that famous 1972 Dallas match, which was considered for many as the greatest tennis match ever played.
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I don´t know vs Vince Spadea, but I´m 100% sure vs Mamesh Buphati
     
  36. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Rosewall defeated Laver in a number of Pro Majors and Laver did the reverse. They had fantastic matches. Rosewall did reach the finals of two majors at around age 40 NOT because he just got good. He was far better as a younger man but in my opinion was so good that he was still good enough to beat anyone but Jimmy Connors at that time.

    I will look at your chess game later and give you my comments. It may be a little while but hopefully I can do it faster than that. Didn't know you liked the King's Gambit? Fischer and Spassky used to play it. One of Spassky's King's Gambit games was shown at the beginning of the James Bond movie "From Russia with Love" except they removed two pawns. It was a game that Spassky played against Bronstein in which he sacked a rook with check to win.

    http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1034110
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2011
  37. piece

    piece Professional

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    Appreciate the info.

    No need to apologise. I just figured you were talking to me since you'd quoted me in the post where you said that.
     
  38. krosero

    krosero Legend

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  39. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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  40. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    I understand that Laver was far and away better than Rosewall in the Open Era.
     
  41. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    In the Open Era Laver I believe had a better record but it's far less clear when you examine the overall record during their entire careers.
     
  42. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Sorry to have to tell you, PC1, but Jay Berger doesn't belong on the list. He would never beat Vince Spadea. :)
     
  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Laver won 5 majors in the open era.4 of them in his unbelievable GS run.

    But Kenny won 4 majors ( 1 FO, 1 USO, 2 AO ) + 2 semi majors (WCT) beating Laver in the 1968 FO and 71 and 72 WCT Finals.

    Laver beat Rosewall in the 1969 FO F and also in the Phily finals.

    Very, very close at the end.
     
  44. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    My wife (who serves like Jay Berger at a much slower speed) thinks Berger has the most awesome serve of all time therefore he has to be better than Vince Spadea.

    Okay you broke me, Vince Spadea is the GOAT. I've been fooling myself to believing it could be greats like Laver, Rosewall, Borg and Gonzalez but it's really VInce Spadea. :( Spadea could give Djokovic three games a set and win.
    As it always is with Laver and Rosewall. For the Open Era Rod did win a lot more tournaments.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2011
  45. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Glad you agree with me, cause I'm just telling it like it is. You've got to beat Spadea if you want to be in the conversation.

    So bring it! And remember, Vince Spadea ain't afraid of ya.
     
  46. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    Yes, there seems to be a bit of uncertainty over their head to head record. It's also to be noted that they played many, many matches against each other in the course of a single year and it's unclear how much effort each player would put into the various affairs. My understanding is still that the Rocket bested Rosewall on the biggest stages in the Open Era, quite decisively.
     
  47. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    That's not how you spell his name, but he's a great doubles player. I've seen him play in person.
     
  48. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    Very difficult for Laver to compete with this man:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQfJp_3mZ0
     
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, big events like the Italian,South African,MSG,Wembley,Philadelphia.Rosewall also won a few of them but not so much.Face to face, however, it looked like Rosewall regained his dominance of 1963-64 vs Laver.Amazing, isn´t it?
     
  50. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Wrong, as I stated before.In major events, Laver won 1 out of 4 finals against Rosewall.He beat Rosewall more often in minor events ( in the open era)
     

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