Bending your wrist while serving?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by luishcorreia, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    Hi.

    What si the effect of bending or cocking your wrist while serving?

    I noticed that when I do this my serve is way... way better. More spin, more power and more consistent.

    I grab the racquet with a continental grip anyway but my wrist is more bent. A bit like Raonic.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klR6AfFR70c

    What is the effect? More spin? More snap through the contact point? I never heard anyone talk about this.
     
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  2. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    notice his trigger finger.... that's where the power comes from... 1 finger!
     
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  3. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    ok. thank you for your taking the time..
     
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  4. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    ... and a beautiful service motion, and being 6'5"? :)
     
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  5. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I don't know, but I don't think it's important. If you notice in the video, it becomes aligned with the forearm (beginning at about 0:17 in the video) during the evolution of the service anyway. Maybe it has some effect like the "pat the dog" think with forehands.

    If it works for you, if you feel it's causing improved serving, then of course go with it. But, yeah, I've never heard any talk about this either.
     
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  6. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Which wrist action are you referring to? Roanic, Roddick and some others flex the wrist on the preparation (prior to the trophy phase). However, cocking the wrist on the serve usually refers to a wrist action after the trophy phase -- i.e., the radial deviation and wrist extension seen during the racket head drop and the early part of the upward swing to the ball. The wrist uncocks on the way up to the ball (to a fairly neutral position at contact).
     
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  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I got one for you.
    Lately, last 20 years, I've been prepping with an aligned wrist.
    3 weeks ago, heading back towards heavier rackets, I used my old prep (from 1977) of a bent FORWARD wrist, so the racket sort of wraps around the front of my body on prep, pointing to the right service line, me lefty.
    Serves were for sure, bigger! More RHS. Tiring, hard for me to do repeatedly.
    Instead of prebending to load like you'd think, I'd prebend the opposite way to get more rackethead loop for faster speeds.
     
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  8. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    You mean.. Opening the wrist? Is that possible?
     
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  9. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    What I was doing was rolling the wrist like raonic - see video.

    I feel I get more spin on the serve, Judy like using a more extreme western grip on the forehand
     
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  10. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Does Milos "roll" his wrist? Or does he use an eastern backhand grip? And those serves, were they 150 missiles, or 90 mph top/twists?
     
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  11. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    Raonic does not have the wrist aligned with the forearm.. So it looks to me that he has a continental grip
     
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  12. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Raonic Wrist before and After Impact

    Here is a video showing Raonic's wrist before and after impact. I would not call that a 'snap' or much wrist motion/bending at all. Serve type & whether a fault are unknown.

    https://vimeo.com/63060339

    Impact-
    [​IMG]

    The best stop action single frame on Vimeo can be done by pressing the play-pause button as fast as possible. The arm passes by around second 7. (It took me 10+ tries to catch impact.)

    From behind, high speed videos show that the angle between the forearm and racket (β=20-30° at impact) changes extremely rapidly as the arm rotates so that the forearm and racket become much more in a straight line (β~0°) roughly a hundredth(?) of a second after impact. See other serve videos taken from behind.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
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  13. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Still not clear. Is the "roll" you refer to the wrist flexion that Raonic employs prior to the trophy phase?
     
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  14. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    Yes.,exactly that. Do not know why but i feel a difference when I do that, maybe its just racquet head speed increase due to the way the racquet travels trough the air?
     
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  15. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    What I mention is exactly the same as you found....LAGGING the wrist behind the forearm.
    It increases the loop at the back of trophy, so you start out with a little head start in swingspeed.
    Like a loop forehand compared to a straight takeback forehand.
     
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  16. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    It makes sense. It's a huge difference. It's like what u feel when I prepare early., and properly on my forehand.
     
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  17. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    This type of action, a flexion prior to an extension (or vice versa), is sometimes seen in martial arts, other tennis strokes or other sports. It may have something to do with the stretch-shortening cycle (SSC). You might be able to incorporate something of a "whip effect" with this SSC action.

    I suspect that there is an optimal amount of wrist flexion prior to the trophy phase. If you employ an excessive amount of flexion it could possibly be counterproductive. It might also complicate the timing of your racquet preparation.
     
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  18. trilix

    trilix Rookie

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  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    DJ is smoking pot. But he's a natural trained tennis player, can hit 125 in his sleep.
    He doesn't really do the Milos thing we're talking about. Notice his prep position. His racket is perpendicular to the ground. Milo's has the hitting face facing left and upwards, maybe 20 degrees.
    DJ forgot about his high elbow, high hitting hand finish, after striking the serve, while the racket is pointing at the ground.
    Tanner and Goran would argue about high toss and jumping upwards. They low toss and jump INTO the court, as did Curren, Rusedski, and a few others.
     
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  20. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I would take what Djoker says with a grain of salt. It is doubtful that he has really analyzed his own strokes. He is probably just parroting what he was told as a developing junior player.
     
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  21. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    Supination?

    I think what both you and Lee are saying makes sense, but I also think that, in addition to the "flexion", I think he's also doing some "supination". And, I think that might *also* lead to some of that "stretch-shortening" stuff with the pronation aspect of the serve. The racket might then end up having to travel further in that "pronating" change in the direction that it's facing.

    Wish I coulda written that better. . . :mrgreen:
     
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  22. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    You wrote it just fine.
    Any doubt, any of us can just try it.
    It seems to work pretty well.
     
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  23. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    de-pronated

    I actually pondered this a couple of years ago when I was trying to think of a way to help this poor acquaintance out with his most horrible "serving yips" problem. He had always used one of those "sky hook"-type, straight arm service motions, and had managed to sorta "get away with it" for decades.

    I guess he tried to "fix" it, and ended up doing something indescribable, resulting in seldom even being able to get the ball to the net. I was so embarrassed for this opponent that I offered to try to help.

    That "sky hook" thing keeps the racket face facing the same direction all the way through the stroke, so, rather than try to explain "pronation" to him, I wondered what having him "over-supinate" on the racket drop might result in.

    Alas, he plays on the other side of town and we never were able to get together. I've seen him since, and he now has some weird thing concocted that he *can* get over the net, but he sez that as long as he has something that is working that he doesn't want to try screwing with it. Having lived with the putting yips for years prior to giving the f***ing game up, I could completely understand.

    (Interestingly, after years of not playing golf, I learnt that the "claw" grip totally solved my yips - *if* I lined the lettering up on the ball towards the hole and made myself trust it). :mrgreen:
     
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  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Look closely at Milo's prep stance. He does this with his right wrist.
     
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  25. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
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  26. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    NOT angle of wrist at impact.
    We're talking angle of wrist at prep position.
     
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  27. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Chas Tennis, no argument here on the fairly neutral wrist position at contact. You make a very good case for the lack of "wrist snap" during the contact phase. However, as LeeD indicates above, we are discussing a preparatory wrist flexion (and supination?) that occurs prior to the trophy position. This was not clear to me either when I read the OP.
     
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  28. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    In the Raonic videos I see the wrist bent from the start of the draw back - probably in a more exaggerated way than most servers(?) - and then it becomes more straight as clearly shown in the videos. At what point in the motion are you referring to? Could you give the time in one of the Vimeo videos? Prior to taking the racket back? It is bent then and then bends more as he draws it back.

    At what point is the supination that you are interested in?

    Wrist Snap is another subject - I added the comments about the 'wrist snap' because it is another term that is often used but I don't get a clear picture of what is meant. 'Wrist snap' proponents should pointed it out in high speed videos that clearly show it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
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  29. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Note: I was not the one who brought up supination. My reference was to preparatory flexion. I cannot access any of your vimeo links from post #25. (Your vimeo link in post #12 is accessible but it does not should the prep phase of the serve).

    In the OP it appears the he may have a bit of flexion at the very start of his preparation. It becomes very apparent around 0:10-0:12. As I said previously, prior to the trophy position/phase. You should also be able to see evidence of supination and, probably, external SR.
     
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  30. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I also cannot view my Vimeo videos on my Samsung Galaxy S2 smartphone for some reason.

    They work well using my laptop.

    I'll look over your points more carefully later -

    I believe that what the wrist is doing is clear in the Vimeo videos going into trophy position but I can't interpret in terms of supination and pronation, etc. There are some earlier videos showing the wrist from catching the bounced ball as the ball is first drawn back. I'm not sure what the 'prep phase' is - I'll look for a video if you describe it.
     
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  31. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    ^ When I say "prep phase" I am talking about everything prior to the trophy phase/position. The OP video shows the wrist and forearm actions adequately enough.

    Edit: If you remove "/settings" from your links in post #25, they may work just fine. Will look at them later.
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
    #31
  32. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    You're right. Removed "/settings". I'm editing out all references to that mistake. Thanks for finding the problem.
     
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  33. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Just try it.
    Instead of the racketface facing to the dead left, for a rightie, have it face left and very upwards, like 30 degree angle upwards. Then start your motion and don't think.
    The resultant serve has more juice even with a retarded swing.
     
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