Discussion in 'Racquets' started by Ripper, May 4, 2007.
And a bit interested in knowing if the POG LB has a chance of being among them.
Babolat Pure Drive Roddick+ and Pure Control+...
No POG will ever serve better than a modern Babolat.
That's the truth. My POG won't serve at all. It just sits there doing nothing until I pick it up and accelerate it through the hitting zone while pronating my wrist.
Seriously, though, you're probably right. Especially for rec players.
You guys did read I'm talking about spin (not flat) serves, right?
I'll go by with what I've faced.
The most wicked kick serve I've ever returned - ever - was played by a guy using a LiquidMetal Radical MP. He was using an all-poly string job - can't remember which brand. This was at high-altitude, about 7300 above sea level.
I also routinely play a 4.0 who has the most wicked slice serve I've ever faced - ever! This thing pulls so wide on the deuce side that I pretty much commit to the wide side of the court to get to it - relying on a relatively strong 1HBH to pick up the T shot. This gentleman also happens to have the fastest flat serve at our club. He's 4.0 due to consistency - hero-or-zero we say. He plays PS 6.0 85 - not sure which flavor. He also uses an all-poly set-up (big banger).
At my club I have played a guy a few times who has nastiest kick serve I have ever tried to return. Frigging thing bounces up the ball up to 6ft high (i am 6ft tall), not to mention the side spin.
He plays with RDS003 with some lead at 12. He is 4.0-4.5.
Walmart $19.99 special, you need racket head speed for spin, any light racket will do.
I think I've spawned my most truly evil spin serves with a Prince NXG midplus. It's not a power frame, but it has a great layout for loading rpm's on a ball.
I hit my best kickers with my Yonex pro rd-70 long.
The Pk ki 15 pse was a good serving racquet too. And of course the babolats.
we should have a forum for skill if u want that unreturnable spin or serve.
Time to switch the focus from the rackets/string...
time to review our skill, or our life
The PD doesn't have the reputation it has because it only hit's hard flat serves. It has the potential for incredible kick serves as well as slice serves. If you're a great server with any racket, you'll serve better with the Pure Drive. Or in my case, if you're a weak server, there are many benefits to be had.
If anyone thinks it is possible to hit a kick serve as well with a POG as a PD, they aren't living in reality... and that's true for more than "just recreational players".
Never seen anything come close to the TT Bandit OS for slice serve.
I played with the POG in the past and currently own a PDR standard. I have about 10 hrs match time on the PDR. According to my teammates, my kick and slice serves are much faster and have way more action. My kicker and slice serves have become more of a weapon for me since the switch to the PDR.
There should be a separate forum for those who believe that racquets, and not the individual players, create the shot.
Too much space is being wasted in this forum on this nonsense.
You might just as well ask 'Which racquet is best for doubles on Tuesday evenings?'.
Everyone is entitled to post what they want. If you think it is nonsense, feel free to read threads that appeal to you.
PDs!!! I found some dynamite kick with the npro surge too. I know a lot of really good players with kick-ass serves that use npro surges, PDs, PD roddicks, etc.
Obviously players create the shot. If a player can't hit a kick serve, he can't hit a kick serve with anything. If he can hit a kick serve, he will hit a better one with certain rackets.
If you don't think the exact same serve motion from the exact same player will have different results with different rackets, you're just simply wrong.
Try to hit a flat serve with a POG OS and then a Pro Staff 85.
Then look into my eyes and tell me the racquet makes no difference.
POG,Prince Alu.Pro and the Prince Mag.Pro. I could hit slice,topspin and twist serves with wood (Jack Kramer Auto.), but when these oversize frames took over, I was so much better at it with not the effort. My confidence soared big time! I rarely hit flat serves just once in awhile so the oversize is my thing for serves and hitting from the backcourt.
Some of you still have to learn some basics of tennis. You're putting the cart before the horse.
I've been playing for over 25 years - I've hit with many racquets over that time - and I know that there is definitely no general answer to questions like the one posed in this thread.
While it can be said - sometimes - that a certain racquet is a good baseline racquet, or a good vollying racquet, that's where generalities with racquets begin and end.
Each player is different from every other player. To say that everyone - or even the majority of players - can more effectively hit a kick serve with this racquet, or more effectively hit drop shots with that racquet is absurd.
As I said - you might as well generalize by saying that the Diablo MidPlus is best for doubles on Tuesday evenings.
Every player is an individual. Just because player A hits great drop shots with an iRadical MP in no way means that the majority will. Just because player B hits great angled sliced backhands with an Ncode 90 in no way means that the majority will.
Racquets are a very personal thing - a very personal comfort is required - it's like a relationship.
Plus, there are the variables of string and tension, and possible customization of weight and balance - these are important elements and cannot be accounted for in a 'discussion' like this one.
Just the responses in this thread alone are evidence of what I'm talking about - out of about 13 responses to the question, at least 10 different racquets are listed.
You can't generalize. This is the way tennis actually is: You find a racquet, string, and tension you're comfortable with for your game, customize the weight and balance if you like, and then tweak things as needed in order to hit all the shots.
I'm with Deuce on this one. This thread, and the fact it even got responses to the OP's question is ridiculous.
By the way Deuce, best racquet to hit Doubles with Tuesday Evenings would be the <insert racquet here>.
I agree with Deuce too on this one too, except Rad OS is the best racket in the universe.
Well, the POG I asked about is the L-O-N-G-B-O-D-Y, which, regardless of it's 28 inch long length, has a lower sw than the POG OS and, even, the Mid. Everybody (well not everybody, I can see, now) knows that the face of a 28 inch long racquet will travel at a higher speed than that of a 27 inch long one, all other factors being equal. However, if you make the 28 inch long racquet easier to swing, the difference in extra speed is, even, higher. On paper, the POG L-O-N-G-B-O-D-Y seems like spin monster; specially on serves. Basically, what I was asking is if it was as good in practice as it seems to be in theory... Oh and btw, racquets do make a difference. If they didn't neither of you would have selected the models you're using
Actually, when I was playing with the Babolat Pure Drive Standard racquet, my slice serves had a huge kick to it. Depends on how much wrist you're willing to use.
Do you honestly believe that everyone - or even the majority of people - who use a particular racquet will have the same ease hitting kick serves, or angled slice backhands, or drop shots?
Do you really believe that such generalizations are possible?
If so, we would all have to be built exactly the same way, with the exact same tennis abilities.
This isn't even to mention the variables of string, tension, added weight, shifting balance...
P C 600!!!!! hoo ahhh
The majority of people that play with common off-the-shelf rackets will have more spin and more pace from a serve with a PD versus the exact same serve with most other rackets. This is assuming they have solid mechanics to begin with.
If one person is in a Porsche and another in a Ford Escort and they race, the majority of the time the person in the Porsche will win. If they both press the pedal (let's say they're automatics) similarly, the Porsche will almost always win.
If neither person can drive, then it doesn't matter. If they can both drive, the result will be predictable.
So... You HONESTLY believe the majority of the time someone won't serve better with a PD?
You think you can serve with more pace and spin with a 14 oz racket like Sampras do? Physique affect player's racket, string, tension choices. For example, player A maybe able to swing at maximum swing speed with a 13 oz racket because he is strong; Player B because physically weaker, may not be able to swing at maximum swing speed with a 13 oz racket, maybe his optimum racket weight is 11 oz, for example. Every player is different, part of the beauty of the game.
I understand what you're saying... We get the point. I think there's more to it though.
I think you're arguing just for the sake of argument. I wouldn't be surprised to find out you use a 90 inch frame or that you're against the PD and think it's an awful frame. This forum exists because there are real differences between rackets, many differences that are more subjective than objective.
Obviously everyone has different results with different rackets and there are exceptions to all generalities, including the one I am making here. I think when it comes to spin on serves, it's a different animal. There is more going on here than personal perception.
The MAJORITY of people the MAJORITY of time will gain more pace and spin using a Pure Drive.
You really think I'm wrong?
I have nothing against a PD because I never use it before. FYI, I practice with PS 6.0 85. But when it comes to matches, I play with Radical OS, yes a OS.
Compare to what? It is all relative, right? What is majority of people?? It can be from 16-60 yrs old, 5ft to 6ft+, 100lbs to 200lbs, a very fit person to a weekend warrior? It is different from one person to another person. There is no absolute right or wrong, it is like buying tennis shoes, some need stability, some need cushion, some need traction, etc.
I was lucky enough to train and play high level table tennis. You have no idea the variables going into that sport. Tennis is not as complex.
Once I found what style table tennis I wanted to play I settled with a blade and rubbers and glue that would fit the style I was looking for.
In tennis you have to make up your mind as well. You choose what style you want to play and settle on the racquet and strings and tensions and go on from there.
When people in my club saw the improvement I made in the past year, they started asking questions. After the questions came my suggestions. Now some guys want to train with me. Not a coach...me. I could still be playing with my Diablo and killing my knee or killing my back...or sometimes killing my wrist for doing slice forehands.
A few of my friends bought the PD...they all had to go from Continental or Eastern to Semi Western. They had to change their stance, and had to change or adjust lots of other required techniques to be able to control the PD. It took them time, but eventually they adjusted fine and now are having tons of fun and are hungry for more.
What I am saying here is that the racquet basically makes you have to play a style of tennis and people have to adjust their strings and play for that particular style. We may not be build the same way, but to play well with the PD, you have to use the known techniques (strings and tensions) for it.
Do you think Wang Liquin can play as well with Ma Lin's racquet?
Aero pro drive plus is best serving racket i ever used but it was little slow at the net, and i am hoping the new cortex would be different.
No - it's assuming that they all have essentially the same mechanics - which is not possible.
That's the most irrelevant analogy I've seen in a long time.
I believe that the results of such a 'trial' would be absolutely and entirely unpredictable to anyone who does not personally know the players in question beforehand.
No-one is saying that there are not differences in racquets. If that's the message you're reading, then you're not reading properly.
What I, personally, am saying is that there ARE differences in racquets... but there are huge differences in players, as well. As such, each different player, with their different strokes, will be affected differently by the different racquets.
Yes, I really think you're wrong.
As stated above - it's a crapshoot - entirely unpredictable.
The only way that the majority would gain more pace and more spin with one particular racquet is if all the members of that majority had virtually the same service motion, strength, height, etc.
Compared to anything!
Take every tennis player that knows how to hit a consistant serve with spin. Assume none of them currently play with a PD. Now give them all PD's and the MAJORITY of them will hit a serve with more spin. I don't care how old, how tall, how much they weigh, or what size shoe they wear.
This isn't so complicated. I am not saying there is a right or wrong. I am answering the posters original question and trying to defend my position. I think my previous post describes it pretty well.
I think to convince people the racket doesn't make a difference on serve is extremely misleading and dead wrong.
Why are you coming into this thread and taking the position you've taken without even trying a PD?
I'd be interested in your thoughts if you can get your hands on one.
I feel differently than both of you, but I do see what you guys are saying and you're making important points.
As usual, it all comes down to the player. No results can be guaranteed with a change in rackets. I will agree to that.
I think some safe assumptions can be made in this specific case, but you guys disagree. I think there has been some constructive discussion about this topic.
Can we leave it at that?
- This post is in response to the post Duece made. I was writing my previous one while he posted his...
Then you are wrong, a 9 oz racket would produce more spin than the PD with almost all players.
No one said that, the problem is, different rackets affect different players differently. You cannot say, if you want to have more spin (or unreturnable spin serve? which I found unrealistic) on your serve, use this exact model racket.
Because spin is mostly a product of swing speed, I know probably PD will produce good spin (from the spec), but there are lots of rackets with similiar spec will produce similiar results.
What I am saying is that the racquet won't make the same difference for everyone - even for the majority.
With any given racquet, some will get more spin, others will get less spin; some will hit better drop shots, some will hit worse drop shots, etc.
It's the nature of difference.
FWIW, I've found the Ti-80 to be the perfect spin generator on serves.
So, Where are the POG L-O-N-G-B-O-D-Y users? Have anything to say?
why is the OP's question stupid?..... and of course, michael schumacher could beat me driving a gremlin or tiger woods hittiing a wal-mart driver..... but of course, racquets, vehicles and drivers matter.
and why are people who have over 4,000 posts denigrating this thread? like they aren't a little obsessive about tennis?
sometimes i just reply on a thread and leave... and just be glad to help...
ripper may be rich enough to try all your recommendations, and maybe he'll stick to his longbody, or go to the PD... nothing stupid about his Question...
relax, arguments are great for forums, but we all have to have respect...
2000+ posts means your an addict too... and heck you may be staying at home more than playing...
i for once brought my laptop to the court...
For ripper: spin serves are done better with bigger heads, less room for error...
a 100" pd works, so does your longbody OS...
needless to say 'tossing' is very important too especially on spinserves...
get consistent on the tosses and you'll be fine...
that's my opinion... will respect others'...
My coach used to play with the ncode 90 and has been trying the PD for about the last 6 months. Both strung with TiMOs at 60lbs. When serving with the Babolat, I can return his serves with some placement, with kick serves at my chest (I am 6'5"), they have a tremendous amount of pace and spin. However, when he hits his kick serves with the Wilson ncode 90, I struggle just to get it over the net, forget placement. They are usually up around my neck and they feel so heavy that my ncode 6.1 95 (which is not a light racquet) struggles to plow through.
Obviously, some racquets are generally better for spin or certain styles of play; however, IMO, I have seen great serves from a lot of different kinds of racquets (HH, HL, heavy, light, OS, Mid, etc). Also, I have found that the elasticity or flexibility in the service motion, combined with strong momentum produces the best serve, both spin and pace. The idea that you have to be big, strong or swing a heavy (or HH) racquet to get the same results is misleading, IMO.
I think you have problems with the "spin" concept. When you hit topspin against topsin you will feel the pace and spin and should have not much trouble locating your return. If you get underspin and you want to return with topspin, you will struggle. The same with flat balls.
I am sure your coach with his ncode 90 is serving with a lot less spin than with his PD.
My friend (a coach as well) plays with the ncode 90 and when I lent him my SW2 "Unbalanced" PD+ Cortex, served cannon balls. Never seen or felt before. He aced many of his quicks as well.
I do recommend to you some table tennis. That will teach you the basics about spin.
I understand spin, and I understand speculation. How can you claim that he is hitting with less spin? It is just an assumption based on the specs of racquet without any understanding of the player or swing? Rhetorical question, you can't.
And, we really don't need another SW2 discussion as it is irrelevant to this thread. It's seems like these SW2 fanatics look for every post to discuss some magical formula for adding weight to a racquet. If they spent this much time on the court, it wouldn’t matter.
It is my experience that players that rely solely on spin do not have great serves. Great serves come from (i) placement, (ii) depth, then (iii) spin, and finally (iiii) pace. The better variety and mix of these components, the better the service game.
My example was more anecdotal, in that, the technique and service motion are more important than simply the amount of spin. Take a racquet that most assume is not necessarily “spin-friendly” like the ncode 90, and I can attest to the amount of spin and kick you can achieve in the hands of someone with solid technique.
Getting angry does NOT help you. You don't have to go anecdotal on me here. Plus I am not a SW2 fanatic. Just tested it and liked it. But my wrist doesn't take it.
Now regarding spin...any table tennis player will tell you that you have to watch the ball and concentrate on spin. I was trained to watch table tennis balls spin four hours a day six days a week for more than five years. I don't think you can attest to the amount of spin of a tennis ball regardless of techniques.
Maybe I'm just stupid.
the OP's question can be answered with the answer to the general question of what is the best racket for me?
The answer to that is:
If the racket feels good in the hand, get the heaviest racket you can muster, that you are able to swing freely and easily
Not angry, amused by your assumptions without any actual understanding of the situation. And, you may want to look up the definition of anecdotal.
Also, a little advice, if your wrist is hurting, you should probably reconsider your technique? A heavy racquet will slow you swing, but should not cause pain in your wrist unless your technique is poor.
Regarding your last sentence, I am not sure what that is supposed to mean? Are you saying that tennis players can't judge the amount of spin? By your statement, it would appear that you are one of the chosen few in the world that can attest to the amount of spin on a tennis ball, congratulations.
I am glad you are amused. I thought I did understand the situation. Anyways, anecdota in Spanish is a recolection of a situation that you kept in your head because it caused an impression. I guess you were telling me things that are anecdotal...right?
I don't know why but my Diablo still hurts me. I have tested in very low tenisions and nada. Same with the PDR...nada. I may try the Storm once it comes to Bolivia in my grip size.
Every table tennis player has to be good with spin. Or antispin for that matter. Did you know that there are rubbers that are antispin? or rubbers that have long pips that reverse the spin? Si, si, si.
I get very happy when I beat players that hit flat balls. I just apply some topspin or sidespin and they are dead. By the way, I only play in clay courts.
One of the few chosen in the world that can attest spin of tennis balls, table tennis balls, soccer balls, footballs, beisballs, softballs, volleyballs and my balls.
Hey Ripper I just started using the POG LB recently and in my opinion it's a very good serving stick if all 28 inchs are used. I switched from a LM Instinct XL which is a really incredible serving stick. Power seemed to drop slightly from the LM Instinct XL but the amount of spin increased a lot. My 2nd serves rarely ever bounce over a 5'10 person standing at the baseline (about 2% of the time). Usually it's shoulder height when it gets to the baseline.
Switching to the POG LB it's bouncing over people's heads at the baseline about 10% of the time. But with more spin and slightly less pace it seems like my 2nd serves are actually slightly worse. People are hitting them a lot cleaner.
I've only played 2 sets with the POG LB so far so I might actually get better on spin serves over time with it.
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