Big SW specs from Indian Wells courtesy of Greg Raven

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by corners, Mar 19, 2009.

  1. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    http://www.hdtennis.com/grs/pro_racquet_specs.html

    Greg Raven has posted some specs from Indian Wells at the link above. Included are some notable men's sticks with pretty high swingweights.

    Djokers new Head: 360 grams, 371 SW, 32 cm balance and 51 flex.

    That is Sampras territory swingweight, which is interesting given Djokers 'modern', more whippy technique. I've read on these boards on several occasions that high-swingweight racquets may suit those with old-school, flat stroke technique, but not players using the modern, "millenium" forehand.

    This perspective seemed somewhat supported by Federer's relatively low swingweight (338 - see same link above) and Nadal's moderate (355 - dido) swingweight, given his build (about the same swingweight at Ivanovic!).

    But if Djoker can whip a 371 SW racquet through the contact zone, maybe modern technique can flourish with more hefty sticks after all.


    Take it easy.
     
    #1
  2. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2005
    Messages:
    5,119
    Many thanks, corners, for posting the link to Greg Raven's site -- it's fascinating to see the specs of so many pros' racquets. Wow, some of those swingweights are high!

    Your proposition -- based on evidence -- that modern technique and hefty sticks are not necessarily mutually exclusive is well taken.

    Thanks also go to Greg Raven, of course. Good job, Greg -- much appreciated!!
     
    #2
  3. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,674
    Location:
    Cluj-Napoca, Romania
    Yes...but thanks to Greg for underlying that one doesn't necessarily need 380 grams rackets for "stability against heavy hitters" (in the 4.0 league probably ...).
    Chardy plays a radical very slightly weighted up (330 grams, 333 SW).
    So ... while modern technique and heavy rackets are NOT mutually exclusive, neither is stability (at the PRO level) and lighter weight + decent swing weight.
    It goes both ways.

    P.S. Modern PRO type strokes and 360 + sw may not be mutually exclusive, but "average Joe" modern strokes and that kind of inertia MAY very well be mutually exclusive.
    Not every Joe can use the kinetic chain as Djoko does, not everybody has his speed and footwork.
    Not everybody has the shoulder turn and preparation he does.
    Food for thought....for both camps I guess.
     
    #3
  4. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    ^^Yep, surely we that are not 6'2", super fit and young need to think proportionally. I'm not about to lead up my stick to 371 SW - don't think I could get it around at speed with my short levers.

    Of course, with such a small sample size, we have no idea if Jeremy Chardy would be a more effective, sturdier player with a heftier racquet, or if Gicquel would play better if he read a couple hundred of NBMJ's posts.

    It probably boils down to personal preference and style of play, and, with the pros, habit. Would a racquet with lower static weight and higher swingweight help out Federer against Nadal? Maybe, but he's played with that stick since he was a kid. And that example seems to extend to amateurs too.
     
    #4
  5. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,312
    What's surprising is that Jelena Dokic has the highest swingweight at 383 for both women AND men! :shock:
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2009
    #5
  6. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,280
    I agree about Dokic. A real surprise. This is also evidence of a point made in another post where John McEnroe is quoted as saying that one of the reasons Federer has the game he has is because his racket is lighter than other players. In terms of swingweight at least he seems to be at the low end for the male players.

    cc
     
    #6
  7. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,674
    Location:
    Cluj-Napoca, Romania
    And yet his racket does not lack the necessary stability to block Roddick's "rather heavy-ish" ;) serving deep with no problems @ under 340 SW.
    I guess there are plenty of servers of Roddicks quality in the 3.5 leagues so that people need 350 + sw's to feel like their rackets are "stable enough" for blocking returns :).
     
    #7
  8. heavy300

    heavy300 New User

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Messages:
    48
    a question, could be primitive, can racquets have different swing weight given that they have the exact same mass and balance?
     
    #8
  9. 0d1n

    0d1n Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    3,674
    Location:
    Cluj-Napoca, Romania
    Yes.
    If more of the mass is concentrated close to the balance point the SW/inertia will be smaller.
    If more of the mass is concentrated towards the "ends" of the stick, the SW/inertia will be bigger, while keeping the same mass and balance point.
     
    #9
  10. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,280
    While I take your point, it would be good if we could keep at least this one thread free of some of the senseless arguments in other threads.

    cc
     
    #10
  11. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Yeah, it would be good. And 0d1n does have a good point. Federer's racquet, even now that the consensus seems to be that we know what that racquet is, remains a bit of a mystery.

    My understanding is that stability, which can be reduced to "plowthrough", is mainly a function of hittingweight and racquet head speed. Hittingweight is largely a function of swingweight (although twistweight enters on off-center hits). So Roger's relatively low swingweight of 338 would be relatively unstable at low swingspeeds and very stable at the super high swingspeeds he's capable of on the forehand, etc.

    But like 0d1n pointed out, Roger's about the best there is at blocking back super-fast serves with a short stroke. In these conditions, with very slow swingspeed, his low swingweight racquet would be relatively unstable. So he's either damn good, or lower swingweight is ok in skilled hands, or both.

    So then we're back to NBMJ's axiom of everyone has an ideal swingweight, beyond which, swingspeed begins to diminish and with it shot speed and/or spin.

    However, the TW Professor wrote a post a while back referencing an old study (sorry, don't have link) that concluded that on groundstrokes, where players do not swing as hard as they can (study assumes 50% effort), there is almost no point of diminishing returns in terms of swingweight. That is, the increased energy contributed by higher swingweights continues to outbalance the effect of diminished swingspeeds.

    But many argue that today's technique, especially on a stroke like the forehand, where we're looking for maximum speed and spin, requires faster swingspeeds than can be had with 50% effort. So, the assumption goes, swinging at 90-100% effort, one will quickly find the swingweight of diminishing swingspeeds when trying heavier frames. The point of diminishing swingspeed being the "ideal swingweight". And for Roger, perhaps the ideal swingweight for his technique is the rather low 338.

    But then you've got a guy like the estimable Craig A. Clark, who started a racquet quest some years back and, if you read through the old review threads, seemed to fall in love with frames with swingweights as low as 313 and as high as 348. Craig has written about his ideal "swingweight range", which is a good deal different than an "ideal swingweight."

    What do you think Craig? I assume a player of your maturity has not found different frames more suitable as your game has rapidly evolved over the past few years. Have you simply found that you can play pretty darn well with lighter frames, and, after an adjustment period, ever heavier frames as well?

    Or has your technique improved or changed to go along with the heftier frames?

    How are your running and short angle forehands coming with the KPS88?

    I'm just getting back into tennis after a long layoff and have returned to the game with a frame very similar to the frames of my youth - traditionally weighted players frames. My K90 seems a bit sluggish coming through on the forehand, but I'm hoping it's a fitness/timing/technique issue I can sort out, as it feels so good on every other shot. If not, I'll have to try a lower SW frame.

    Does anyone else find that the forehand is the stroke where the point of dimishing swingspeed is found first?
     
    #11
  12. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    5,746
    Remember, Federer plays with a very soft stringing, I think 21 kgs was the last I read.
     
    #12
  13. origmarm

    origmarm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2007
    Messages:
    3,207
    Location:
    London
    There are some interesting ones in there, thanks for the link corners.

    Taylor Dent seems to have changed his racquet, note the comment there on the table.

    Also interesting to see Stepanek with a Bosworth covered in Lead tape, maybe he changes his spec by tournament per the surface.

    Cheers, Orig
     
    #13
  14. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,940
    Location:
    In the moment.
    It's interesting, because I did try a number of lighter, ''tweener" MP frames as well as numerous 'light player's frames' (ie 11.3-11.8oz static weight range) without essentially NO satisfying results. I could (and did, in the older reviews you mention) get more wordy, but what it came down to was actually very simple: I never felt fully comfortable to just forget the frame andplay. It was always as if I was 'aware' of the frame.

    Frustrated, I put down the ligher MP's and began trying out some heavier mids again. I don't think it is by accident that I worked my way back to the Pro Staff series. The best ball of my youth was played with them. They feel comfortable to me. I KNOW what they do, and don't do. I can 'just play'.

    BTW, the SW issue is misleading. A while back Bolt measured the SW's of several frames I really liked and had 'tweaked' to perform their best FOR ME. These included the PS 6.0 85, K90 (US AND Asian), HPS 6.0 95, AG 100, and I believe a Volkl Tour 10 Gen II. ALL measured EXACTLY 335 SW. :) I did NOT have a 'target spec' when I started. I went by 'feel', something Mojo talks about all the time. So my 'true SW range' appears actually MUCH tighter (the KPS 88 measures 346).

    Best,

    CC
     
    #14
  15. JediMindTrick

    JediMindTrick Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,490
    Compared to the other pros swingweight Federer's racquet is practically a tweener.
     
    #15
  16. Federer4life

    Federer4life Guest

    Shes a beast
     
    #16
  17. matchmaker

    matchmaker Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    4,040
    Interesting article and stats. It is surprising to see how Nadal has a higher swingweight than Federer. Instinctively you would think the opposite, as Federer is able to flatten things more out and Nadal brushes up to the ball a lot, which you would suppose to be easier with a racquet with a lighter swingweight.
     
    #17
  18. Richie Rich

    Richie Rich Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2004
    Messages:
    5,274
    and when you pick up the k90 in a store, it the heaviest there. crazy stuff.
     
    #18
  19. matchmaker

    matchmaker Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    4,040
    Yesterday I was watching the Federer-Verdasco match and, before reading this article, I was actually noticing how fast Federer swings. He almost seems to be in a rush, although his technique is rather classical, with a blend of modern elements also off course.

    But if you compare his strokes with Sampras or Becker, they are radically different in the time between the setup and the swing. Sampras would set up long before ball bounce and then just whack it with a long swing.

    Federer always seems to rush the game and play very fast, not only as to ball speed, but also as to the time between the set up and the ball leaving his strings.

    Maybe, just maybe, he needs to swing so fast because his racquet is relatively light and with low SW in comparison to other touring pros, although the retail version is considered high in SW for club players. It just shows you how they are two different worlds.
     
    #19
  20. Richie Rich

    Richie Rich Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2004
    Messages:
    5,274
    also note than 11.5 oz seems to be the minimum for the men - based on the small sample in greg's table.
     
    #20
  21. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    8,754
    I bet Henin had a really high swingweight as well. Remember, a lighter frame can have a higher SW than a heavier frame. I'm betting some of these women's sticks are more head-heavy (or simply less headlight) than some of the men.

    Sabatini used to play with a beast of a frame - 14.1 oz. I wonder what the SW was?
     
    #21
  22. JediMindTrick

    JediMindTrick Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,490
    Wow! Djoko's racquet has 51 flex! I wonder if the retail one will be similar.
     
    #22
  23. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida

    and *NO* "average joe" is playing against the types of shots Joker faces. As you said, >>> it goes both ways.
     
    #23
  24. matchmaker

    matchmaker Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    4,040
    Hi Dr. Clark,

    Interestingly I had a similar experience. I tried a bunch of MP's, mostly leaded them up and I still got back to mids. Actually I sold all of my MP's. I am a lot happier now, I don't worry about my gear anymore but rather about how to improve my game.

    I still have to try the KPS, though, but I don't want to alter the "zen-ness of my sameness" for the moment.
     
    #24
  25. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,280

    On swingweight I did something similar. I bought a pair of used RD7s a year or so ago and love them. But there isn't much future in playing them, so I tinkered with all my other sticks to try to get the same "feel". In the end all I did was end up with a lot of rackets that, while weighing very different amounts, had swingweights of 350. Whether that gives me the best game, or just the best feeling rackets, is another matter...

    cc
     
    #25
  26. snoopy

    snoopy Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,123
    Assuming everything posted is true, I am really surprised to see Joker using such a heavy racquet with such a high swing weight. It doesn't seem to suit his style of play: western grip and big cuts at the ball. I guess now we know why he gets worn out.

    Such a log of a racquet makes more sense for Murray's style. I'm not sure if I am remembering correctly, but didn't Murray used to the highest swing weight on tour? His racquet is still heavy but I think he reduced swing weight. Maybe I'm just remembering incorrectly.
     
    #26
  27. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,940
    Location:
    In the moment.
    Amen! ;) CC
     
    #27
  28. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,940
    Location:
    In the moment.
    I usually feel best when winning.............. ;) CC
     
    #28
  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    34,762
    Is Djokovic using the high SW to compensate for the 51 flex? 51 is way low by today's standards.
     
    #29
  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    34,762
    Good point. Is he the pro equivalent of the stereotypical club player with the heavy racquet who tires out fast? The way he folded in the AO after 1 set was unbelievable for a pro.
     
    #30
  31. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,280
    Unfortunately I can win and lose regardless of whether my racket is exactly the way I want it.

    cc
     
    #31
  32. Greg Raven

    Greg Raven Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    618
    Location:
    Apple Valley, CA
    I heard from one of the other stringers -- but could not verify -- that Murray's swingweight is 404.
     
    #32
  33. Greg Raven

    Greg Raven Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    618
    Location:
    Apple Valley, CA
    Taylor told me that his old racquet -- which from what I could tell by hitting with it was VERY flexible -- was not giving him enough spin on the ball. He believes that the stiffer frame he is currently using gives him more spin. He did acknowledge that his old sticks were great for hitting flat shots and sticking volleys, but I saw him hit some pretty good-looking volleys in practice, too.

    FWIW, the racquet graphics inside the shaft make it appear that this racquet was designed for Peter Korda. However, there were stickers over most of this graphic element, so I didn't make the effort to get a photograph.

    I'm guessing that this is Bosworth's basic "pro" racquet. If you're Navratilova, it gets weighted up one way. If you're Stepanek, it gets weighted up another way.
     
    #33
  34. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    5,154
    Location:
    Connecticut
    foul, stimulus, CEO bonuses!!!!!!!........ where are the Morons that say frames do not matter, that pros can generate any kind of spin with any frame:confused::confused: it is the string stupid:)
     
    #34
  35. imalil2gangsta4u

    imalil2gangsta4u Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    1,751
    Location:
    Houston, Tx
    thanks for the link
     
    #35
  36. Schills

    Schills Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2007
    Messages:
    294
    Did anyone else notice that this site stated that Federer's racket which in theory came directly from the Wilson Pro Room has specs virtually identical to the retail model?
     
    #36
  37. corners

    corners Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,441
    Thanks Greg! So Murray is using the J90:)

    And thanks for your response Dr. Clark!

    Cheers
     
    #37
  38. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,940
    Location:
    In the moment.
    My pleasure! Hope it helped. :)

    BTW, the J90 at 405 SW , RA 67 is a suprisingly plush and smooth hit.

    Oh, and I lose plenty too. In fact, I have a theory. If you aren't losing on a regular basis, you are probably not playing enough good players. ;) It took me a long, long time to get good enough to lose to some other very good players. It took even longer to start beating them!!! :twisted:

    CC
     
    #38
  39. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,940
    Location:
    In the moment.
    Me too............. I just tend to win more often when the frame is set up the way I like it. ;) CC
     
    #39
  40. anirut

    anirut Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    5,087
    Location:
    Krungthep (Bangkok), Siam (Thailand)
    I'll keep following the dicussions ...
     
    #40
  41. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,312
    Oh no, not this again.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=246366
     
    #41
  42. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,164
    Location:
    Caught in No Man's Land
    But isn't balance a huge part of swingweight. I could add an ounce of lead to the bottom of my flexpoint radical tour, but the swingweight isn't going up.
     
    #42
  43. crosscourt

    crosscourt Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,280
    It would be interesting to find out what factors have the biggest impact on posters' win rates. How many of us keep our win rate up playing on red clay if we normally play on a hard dcourt or vice versa? How many of us find that our win rate is affected by frequency of matches, or immediate conditioning, or who our practice partners have been. I wonder how many of us even play on different surfaces regularly.

    cc
     
    #43
  44. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,828
    The specs are not identical, you need it lighter and more head light.

    People continue to forget that it has gut/poly, string savers, powerpads, and the heaviest overgrip there is. That adds a heck of a lot of weight and I have not come across a K90 that is the weight and balance of Roger's after adding all that to it.

    All of the K90s I have seen weigh over 12.70z with 17 synthetic, no overgrip, no string savers, no power pads

    If anyone knows where we can get the lighter more head light verson please let me know.
     
    #44
  45. Automatix

    Automatix Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,850
    Location:
    Poland
    Has anyone noticed how dramatically Kuznetsovas swingweight went down???

    Indian Wells 2009:
    Mass: 336g
    Balance: 33.5cm
    Swingweight: 328

    Pacific Life Open 2008:
    Mass: 336g
    Balance: 33.4cm
    Swingweight: 353


    Is it a typo? Balance and weight are the same or almost the same yet the swingweight is way different...
     
    #45
  46. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    9,828
    Gasquet's SW is incorrect, Moodie's notes are backwards.

    Gasquet plays with the same exact LMIXLT that we can all get, modifications are Leather over grip, trouna over grip, now he uses VS gut mains with Alu Power crosses. He need to try some string savers also.
     
    #46
  47. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,312
    Federer's racquet is 12.8 oz. He uses a very thin overgrip that doesn't weigh all that much. It's less than half of the weight of the overgrip that I use. The string savers and power pads are tiny and do not add a whole lot of weight. I'm sure he also gets racquets that are much tighter in specs, meaning his are selected so that they are actually exactly to the published specs of 12.5 oz. strung. The rest of us get whatever comes off the assembly line. :(
     
    #47
  48. a_2c+

    a_2c+ Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2008
    Messages:
    240
    Location:
    UCSB
    hey! i live in the high desert! :eek:!

    maybe i'll bug mr. raven about the racquets sometime...
     
    #48
  49. Greg Raven

    Greg Raven Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    Messages:
    618
    Location:
    Apple Valley, CA
    Gee, I wish you'd pointed this out to me when I was taking the measurements, and helping Wesley remove lead tape from under his bumperguard. Because he was looking to reduce his swingweight, I guess he should have added mass to the tip of the racquet, huh?
     
    #49
  50. DennisK

    DennisK Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    Messages:
    636
    Location:
    County Durham. England.
    Lol :D :D :D
     
    #50

Share This Page