Big USTA League Mixed Doubles Argument

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Gut4Tennis, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    Here is something that I would like to share with all of the tennis people who play USTA league. I was playing a mixed doubles match last night and this is what happened. No umpire of course.

    We won a tight first set in a tiebreaker against a team that has not lost yet this year. All calls were good in the first set, with only one occasion of a slight disagreement. My female served to the male in the deuce court, it was a let court, and the ball landed close to the line, the other female called the serve out, and her male partner overruled her. Sometimes those let serves can be hard to see well.

    We were on serve in the second set, we were serving and they had break point against us. My female partner served to the female in the ad court, and when the return came I was on top of the net and volleyed up the middle and it appeared my ball landed inside the baseline or on the baseline. This volley was more of a slow floater, which allowed all to see the ball very well. The female was backing up and her male partner was backing up as well so they were both very close to the base line when the ball landed. As she backed up the ball hit the ground, she swung and she missed the ball into the net, then she looked at her partner hoping he saw the call, he said absolutely nothing. I was watching them closely and what they might say, then started to turn away since no call was made that tells me it was in. she then looked at us and of course I was right on top of the net so I heard that she never said anything. She then looked back at her partner looked at us again and told us "I told my partner it was out."

    I'd then said, "Oh Oh no that is completely against the rules, as first you never said anything to him, or us, you then missed the ball, didn't make any call, then waited more than 5 seconds, and then told us that you told your partner it was out. The rules state that you must call a quick and decisive call without a break."

    She then said, " but we've given you many calls earlier"

    I then said, "anything in the past has nothing to do with what just happened in this point and I've been around the block enough to know the rules, and what you're doing is against the rules. I'm sorry but that's our point."

    She then said, "fine if you're going to be like that then take the point."

    We proceeded to win that point but then they had Brake points again , and then a few more break points, but we eventually won the game. The next game we broke her serve, and then she quit, saying she felt dizzy. It might of been from the argument. We were up 3-1 with 10 min left so there was no chance they could win at that point anyway.

    The way I see it is if I were to let her get away with going against the rules then it would not allow her the chance to grow & better herself into understanding the rules or how a situation like that should be handled.

    Some may not agree with how I handled that situation, while some others might applaud me for calling her on the rule. Some people would say we're just here to have fun, so let them have the point, even if it was an ultra late call where they really didn't make any call. If I were to let them get away with railroading a phantom call then it would do injustice to the friend of the court rules.

    If I feel a rule is being broken I will stand up for myself and my partner and hold strong.

    Anytime when I play if I don't make a quick and decisive call, I then give the point to my opponents. Just because its your call, does not mean you can make the call up and lie about making a call. I have no problem with a late call, but making no call, and then telling us you made the call is an outright lie.

    If someone makes a quick and decisive call that I think is really bad, I try my best to not say anything, and just give you the benefit of the doubt of missing the call, but if its not quick and decisive, and I think its a bad call, then your going to have a rules argument with me.

    * I will add I'm the only player I have ever seen that calls his own balls out, even after my opponent thinks I hit a winner. Example : I serve up the middle on the deuce court, they don't make a call and start to walk to the other side giving me an ace, and I say immediately, no I missed that serve wide, I cant take that. I've never ever had anyone else do that, so I know I'm very fair. I won't give you anything for free either. You have to earn it, or learn it

    Interested to know how you might of handled it.
     
    #1
  2. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,400
    Location:
    expanding my Ignore List
    What do you mean by the bolded part? She hit the ball and it went into the net?
     
    #2
  3. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,554
    I'm not the OP but that's obvious ... the opposing woman attempted to play the ball but her shot went into the net.


    To the OP - It can be hard to apply the rules to such a situation, but from what you described it seems that you did the right thing. Of course we're only getting your side of the story to go by.
     
    #3
  4. jonnyjack

    jonnyjack Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    381
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I hate it when people say that!

    As far as your situation, I think you handled it correctly. That's what I would do. Also, I played against a guy once that I knew and he called an overhead that he hit wide on himself. He's the only guy I've seen do that in competition. I would do the same if I clearly saw it out. When I'm not sure then I can only go with the opponents call. Sometimes I think I hit a ball out and the opponent will tell me it's way in.
     
    #4
  5. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    Yes you're correct in all of what you said above.

    She swung at my shot while backing up and hit the ball in the net.

    I tried to be very detailed to give the best picture of everything that happened, yet you're right, its only one side of the story.
     
    #5
  6. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,553
    Location:
    Central Florida
    OP,

    Thanks for posting a topic about tennis. The Odds and Ends servers sincerely thank you.
     
    #6
  7. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    I know right!

    Thanks for noticing.

    Now how about you chime in on this situation??!! :twisted:
     
    #7
  8. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    14,147
    Called the ball out on myself before it landed in. Asked him if he was sure? Worse than the end of this Michigan/Tennessee game.
     
    #8
  9. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Newtown, PA
    It sounds like you did the right thing, although I always take these stories with a grain of salt since we're only getting one perspective of the situation. This is a league match. I'd protest getting hooked on a line call as well.
     
    #9
  10. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    14,147
    Got Hooked by myself?
     
    #10
  11. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,553
    Location:
    Central Florida
    No way, if I have to read more than 5 sentences I require an Executive summary.
     
    #11
  12. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    2,632
    Location:
    Newtown, PA
    Sorry, that response was to the OP, not you. LOL. You should have started a fight with yourself.
     
    #12
  13. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    14,147
    Sometimes you win
     
    #13
  14. tenniscasey

    tenniscasey Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2012
    Messages:
    425
    I probably would have given them the point, but I would have asked them to make future out calls more immediate and obvious.

    I can't blame you for taking it and explaining why you were taking it.
     
    #14
  15. corbind

    corbind Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,308
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    I know you don't have a crystal ball but have any idea why she bothered to make up those two things? Just seem really, er, wrong. I mean when I'm confused on a call I look at my partner. If he gives me the big, blank stare I just call it in and move on. So any insight as to why she'd be so crazy?
     
    #15
  16. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court

    she did not like the other female, as she has played against her many times, also she had not lost all year with this male partner, something like 15 matches
     
    #16
  17. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,761
    Location:
    Mallorca.
    Ha ha memories of USTA mixed. What was G.L.'s (one of your opponents) take on the situation? He's an ex-teammate of mine and has always been fair on court.
     
    #17
  18. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    He was 100% silent the whole time. He did not say anything.

    I never even asked him if she told him it was out, because I was watching her lips and she never said a word to him, so no need to even get him involved. They are both good people, yet when your balls are put to the wall the pressure can bring out the worst in ya sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
    #18
  19. Moz

    Moz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,761
    Location:
    Mallorca.
    Sounds like he may have been put in an awkward situation, suggesting your interpretation of the bounce was correct.

    Yours is a good example of the difficulties that occur in league play where there's this serious will to win without the serious will to play to the rules. Another example is playing lets when people aren't sure of the call or blatant footfaulting.

    I prefer it when it's done by the book as it makes things clear from the start.
     
    #19
  20. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    15,067
    OP did just fine. I have had this sort of thing happen many times, but if she had stuck by her call, then nothing more can be done.

    Along those lines, I would not have given you the point had I disagreed with your interpretation. The mere fact that an opponent doesn't hear my call does not mean I didn't make a call. Now, in this case, you were close enough to be certain she didn't make a call, so it's all good.

    I have had opponents try to pull the "You didn't make a call so that means it's our point" thing. Example: I am running back toward the baseline, and we are playing in a noisy bubble. Your shot lands out by three feet. I will not scream an out call like I am calling balls and strikes at the World Series. I will make a normal call, maybe raising a finger.

    You may not see this. But it is still my point.
     
    #20
  21. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    6,782
    So that's what all the ruckus was about.
     
    #21
  22. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    yes sorry If it bothered you, but it only lasted a few min
     
    #22
  23. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,319
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Gut4,

    If you are calling your own first serves out, you are breaking the rules of tennis.
     
    #23
  24. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    so be it then

    If I see my serve wide, and I have the best view of it up the middle, then I'm going to say its wide.

    I say its wide immediately, with no pause or break
     
    #24
  25. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,319
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Thats fine. I prefer to play tennis myself....which means following the rules of tennis. And, you probably shouldn't accuse others of breaking the rules if you are breaking them yourself.

     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
    #25
  26. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    Huge difference baby

    If you can't see the difference then there there's no hope for you
     
    #26
  27. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,319
    Location:
    Connecticut
    No difference. And the fact you didn't even attempt to explain an alleged difference is quite telling.

     
    #27
  28. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    We agree to disagree.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
    #28
  29. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    I thought you meant you called your serve out after the point when there was an ace or a service winner and took second serve. I've had people do this and even done this myself.

    I'm sure I wouldn't be happy with you calling the serve before I got the chance even if you called it out on yourself. This would be seriously distracting and affect my focus on return of serve. I'm easy going about many things but if someone stops a point for any reason other than a valid let, I will take it.
     
    #29
  30. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    Yes yes yes

    I must not be explaining this properly.
    How would it affect your return? Never has anyone said anything but thanks for me having a better view and calling it wide, not long, but wide.

    With a big serve up the middle people will do many things.

    Sometimes they just start to walk to the other side right away, and sometimes they look at the area where it landed. If I see it wide, I'm going to say it was wide in both above.

    I certainly dont say I saw it wide until way after they swung and missed.

    Zero of the serves that I call wide are returned back in the court. Zero
     
    #30
  31. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    6,782
    I have found that most higher 4.5s/5.0s know if their serve is in or out, and won't move from serving position. A lot of 'bad calls' in mixed, IMO, are because people literally can't see it.

    For example, the small skiff that also happened on court 2, Gut. Not sure if you caught that one.

    And, if it was such a 'Big USTA League Mixed Doubles Argument' then why say it was only a few minutes? ;)

    My take, FWIW, is that GL is going to say something to overrule his partner if he believes, for any moment, that she is incorrect, UNLESS she is incorrect and it benefits the opponent. I know this from experience. He is the antithesis of the 'USTA I MUST WIN THIS MATCH AT ALL COSTS'...because he doesn't have to do that stuff...he's that good.

    Gut, you did not mention your OWN undefeated record. Careful...you'll end up back at 5.0!
     
    #31
  32. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,319
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Thats a problem with making up your own rules...you have to make up arbitrary sub-rules for various circumstances. Thats why i prefer to play according to the rules of tennis.


     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
    #32
  33. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    Ohh I'll be a 5.0 at the end of this year, no question.

    Mixed dubs wont effect my dynamic in the slightest, as mens dubs and singles takes precedent over any mixed.

    I guess If I think I know a rule I stand up for myself and my partner. I've never been one to let anyone take advantage of me. If I feel a guy is hooking me with bad calls I get an umpire quick in a tournament...but in this situation I have to quote the rules with confidence.

    I kinda feel like playing mixed with a lower level female, that's its my duty to stand up as its for a team and not just me.

    I continued to give my opponents compliments on shots after the incident, as I did from the beginning.

    @blake ok you're right I'm wrong
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
    #33
  34. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    437
    I do this as well quite a bit and it isn't even against the rules given you have already won the point. I wouldn't call it common where I play but it isn't uncommon either especially since many of the people who I play with know each other.

    In terms of your original point though, I don't take mixed very seriously and would have just offered to play two. In men's I wouldn't but from the small amount of mixed I have played, it just seems like the better option is to let things go to make the matches more pleasant.
     
    #34
  35. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    6,782
    Oh I know...I was referring to all your results so far this year! How did you end up at 4.5???
     
    #35
  36. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    Last year I played just a few matches, as I was a bit injured. I had a few losses and a few close matches. This must of put me on the border, as I was able to click the appeal button and it put me as a 4.5. So I'm a 4.5A :twisted:
     
    #36
  37. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    exactly spot on ......
     
    #37
  38. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Messages:
    6,782
    Ahahaha...I see now! Well done!
     
    #38
  39. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,042
    Location:
    Northern California
    It is not against the rules to call your own first serve out if the opponent didn't return it. Try again blakesq...
     
    #39
  40. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    spot on

    [​IMG]
     
    #40
  41. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,002
    lol. Interesting tidbit missing from the first, painfully long, half confessional/rationale-like story.
     
    #41
  42. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    Yeah if I had a loss already then I would of just let her get away with breaking the rules. Yeah you got that right!!!
     
    #42
  43. JLyon

    JLyon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2007
    Messages:
    3,325
    Location:
    AR
    The Bold is the clincher, if the serve was unplayable and you called it out then that is good sportsmanship, now if you call it out after they blasted a winner then there is issue, but what you describe is fine, but could be used against you later.
     
    #43
  44. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2011
    Messages:
    2,002
    The rule about calling you own sides?

    In any event, the player shouldn't let herself be bullied. If she was sure it was out she should have just stated it was out and ended the conversation.
     
    #44
  45. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    exactly spot on....

    I agree 100%
     
    #45
  46. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,620
    The OP sounds like a very high maintenance player. I would have just asked "are you sure" and moved on. People make mistakes(including the OP). It is her call. Let her make it whether or not you agree is a moot point.
     
    #46
  47. Gut4Tennis

    Gut4Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,268
    Location:
    Tennis Court
    She never made a call.

    I agree 100% if she made the call in a timely manner, and told us the call, as I would of had no problem with a perceived bad call. I can shrug off a bad call right away, but breaking the rules is a whole different ball game. If she had in-fact told her partner that it was out he would of said she did.

    She lied and it was obvious. She got busted
     
    #47
  48. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,713
    gameboy sounds like a low information reading comprehender. I doubt he ever read the OP, he's just bored and looking to game here--is it spring break already?
     
    #48
  49. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,620
    TT, I know you and G4T are the same person.
     
    #49
  50. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    2,713
    How many hours did it take you to think of that answer?
     
    #50

Share This Page