Bjorn Borg is the GOAT

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by forehand_dude, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Thank you. Nadal is a great clay courter, and so was Bjorn Borg. You could argue that Federer would have won more FO titles had it not been for Nadal, but you can make that argument for other players as well. You still have to win that final match, even without a tough rival facing you. I agree though, every player has pluses and minuses, including Federer, Nadal, Sampras, Borg, and perhaps Laver as well. Nadal does have a very good record versus Federer, on every surface besides indoors. Federer has only slight edge over Nadal on hard courts (head to head).
     
  2. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    I'm not certain, but many say that Borg played simply played with a Donnay Allwood PJ, even when he switched to the Donnay Borg Pro in 1980. Donnay Borg Pros were manufactured with some fiberglass reinforcement. His Bancroft Bjorn Borg frames also played supposedly just like the Donnay Allwood. He used those in the U.S. through 1979. Here is an article on Borg's racquets. The already heavy wood frames were reinforced with a second ply of wood to help support 80+ pounds of tension.

    http://www.80s-tennis.com/pages/borg-anecdote-jose.html

    See Borg playing with the Borg Pro versus Lendl and his graphite frame in Jan. 1981.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyuiEzBb7hk (imagine these guys hitting with the latest frames here!)

    [​IMG] (Borg at Monte Carlo)

    [​IMG] (Donnay Allwood)

    [​IMG]

    (Bancroft Bjorn Borg) Both the Donnay and Bancroft frames were very well made, with the choicest wood and great craftsmanship involved.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2012
  3. Atherton2003

    Atherton2003 Hall of Fame

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    Borg was so good looking back then.
     
  4. FedererGlides

    FedererGlides Banned

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    This thread has turned into nostalgic nonsense. It is supposed to be a debate about Borg's achievements as a tennis player and whether or not he is the greatest. Not a place for old people to talk about the "good old days". Fact is Borg never won the US Open and was clearly not comfortable under the bright lights of New York and the pro Connors crowd. This calls into question his mental toughness. Compare this to Federer who had no problems dealing with the very hostile pro Agassi crowd in the 2005 US Open final. Also Federer didn't quit the game after Nadal beat him at the 2008 US Open final. He stayed and kept trying to win more slams. Borg quit after Mcenroe started beating him in big slam finals.
     
  5. FedererGlides

    FedererGlides Banned

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    correction: I mean to say 2008 Wimbledon final, not 2008 US Open final.
     
  6. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Great story.

    He would maybe win another 1-3 French Opens but 3 is already a stretch.
    Wimbledon - Mc had his number, he won Wimbledon in 1983, 1984 and probably would've won in 1982 if he had motivation. No more Wimbledons for Borg. Maybe 1 at most.
    US Open - as far as I remember both Mac and Jimbo reached the semis/finals on a consistent basis for another 4-5 years. No US Opens for Borg.

    I maxed out Borg's capabilities. Had he continued, he would've finished with 15 majors AT MOST, 3 more FO's and another Wimbledon. May I ask where did you find another 5 majors? (for a total of 20?)
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  7. FedererGlides

    FedererGlides Banned

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    Also if you want to talk about impact and bringing fans to the game, then I can bring Federer's beautiful aesthically pleasing style of play into the equation. Borg's impact was more to do with his rock star image than the brilliance of his game. Mcenroe's style of play was much better to watch than Borg's style.

    Mcenroe was an artist, Borg was great but he was not an artist on the court. A lot of people started watching tennis because of Federer, not because of his image, but because the brilliance of his game made a tennis fan out of people who previously were not tennis fans. Also Federer brought a lot of people back to tennis who missed that elegant style of play. To bring so many fans to the game with your style of play(Federer) is more admirable than bringing fans to the game because of your image(Borg). Borg's actual game was not as brilliant as his rock star image would suggest. Mcenroe had a rock star image and his game lived up to his image. In fact Mcenroe's brilliant artistic game exceeded his own rock star image.
     
  8. scineram

    scineram Professional

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    A GOAT doesn't run away after a few losses.
     
  9. FedererGlides

    FedererGlides Banned

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    Exactly, and a GOAT doesn't become mentally weak under the bright lights of New York against a hostile pro Connors crowd. A GOAT handles the bright lights of New York and deals with the hostile pro Agassi crowd like Federer did in the 2005 US Open final. Borg had a big winning record over Connors, but just could not beat him at the US Open. This suggests a weakness of mind and this explains why he quit the game after losing a few finals to Mcenroe.
     
  10. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    What hostile crowd for Borg? Connors wasn't the darling of New York, until very late in his career, and Borg had always at least the same crowd support as Connors or Mac. I saw the Federer vs. Agassi match, when old Agassi was on his last legs after surviving many five-setters before, and there was no hostile crowd for Federer, too. Borg once faced a hostile crowd, that was 1978 in the Foro Italico in the final vs. Panatta, when the Italian mob showered him with coins. He never again went to Rome, but he won the match against Panatta in five. So long mental weakness. That he finished his career, because he flew McEnroe, is a myth. His record against Mac in ATP matches was 7-7, all on fast surfaces bar one match on clay. Looks much better than some other goats head to head.
     
  11. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    I wonder how Borg would have done had he carried on and found his spirit again. I think he might have got that elusive US Open one year, against either Connors or McEnroe, but with how he was more or less figuring out Connors, his chances would have been better against him, probably. He would have been a contender at RG and Wimbledon for some time, methinks, making regular semifinal and final appearances there, and converting some of those chances into Major wins. I'm guessing he still wouldn't have really bothered with the AO.
     
  12. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near G.O.A.T.

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    Relax folks, ...
  13. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

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    I have Borg as the third best player of all time, but there are arguments to put him higher or lower
     
  14. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    :lol:

    I totally missed this back in January.
     
  15. Chillaxer

    Chillaxer Semi-Pro

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    But saying he would have won is hypothetical. Part of being GOAT is commitment and still havgin the win to win, so I think it's unfair to say to players who have gone past him that he 'would have' done more-it's not the point and impossible to know.
     
  16. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    A legend and really up there with the best ever, but he's no GOAT...there's better candidates and one really clear cut favorite for that title
     
  17. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Where'd you get this from?
     
  18. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    I know that borg and mcenroe didn't play any official matches on clay

    http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=M047&oId=B058

    But was there an unofficial match on clay? If so, i'd be interested in details. In response to those people who go on endlessly about the federer nadal h2h not taking into account surfaces, i would say, what if borg mcenroe had half their matches on clay, instead of zero, what they still have a 7 all head to head? Surface is everything when it comes to head to head.
     
  19. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Borg is, in some ways, my favorite player of all time. His popularity had a lot to do my taking up tennis back in the 70s. I even tried to emulate his strokes and serve for a while. He remains, perhaps, the single most influential player and, perhaps more importantly, tennis personality wrt perhaps the most significant upsurge in tennis popularity. Lotta perhapses there.

    Is he the greatest player of all time. Nah. At least not in my opinion.
     
  20. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    This.

    Although I have him as the second maybe. But if someone has him as the number there's nothing wrong at all with that. The fact that he retired at 25 years old and has 11 slams and 16 finals (playing 3 a year) is impressive. Nobody will ever come close to dominate Roland Garros and Wimbledon like that in a long time.
     
  21. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    1981 US Open SF: Bjorn Borg def. Jimmy Connors (6-2, 7-5, 6-4)

    And Borg won the head-to-head 15-8. If you include their 1982-1983 exhibition matches, of which Connors won 6 out of 7, it's 16-14 to Borg. Borg beat Connors 10 times in a row in the 1979-1981 period, turning the head-to-head around, from 5-8 down to 15-8 ahead.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  22. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I remember Connors bragging about how he loved to play extreme topspinners. :) But the result stats tell the true story. Or do they?

    Question: What were Connors' and Borg's peaks? Who was the better player at their peaks? I'm asking because I'm curious and honestly don't have any idea. I admire Connors' career and abilities as much as I admire Borg's.
     
  23. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    The Myth

    And Borg wasn't among those who run away. It is a total myth that he went away because of McEnroe. Golly he was still beating McEnroe in Exhibitions in 1982 and 1983.
     
  24. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    The Myth

    Complete Myth. Borg was burnt out. That is why he quite. He still was quite able to beat McEnroe in unofficial tournaments in 1982 and 1983.
     
  25. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Borg left because of disputes with the ITF over how many tournaments he would have to play. It was in January 1983, during the Masters tournament, when Borg announced that he wouldn't be returning to tennis full-time. Borg had already missed all of 1982 apart from Monte Carlo and exhibition tournaments.
     
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Add 3 indoors much important than AO then
     
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    GOATS are not owned during their primes,as we know whom
     
  28. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Who owned Fed in his prime? Nadal on clay? From the period of 2004-2007 Federer won every non-clay slam except for one, and that loss didn't come to Nadal.

    Where are you really going with this? Some "goats" were never successful on a particular surface. Are you telling me that Sampras was going to defeat Nadal on clay? Of course not, and he would never even reach Nadal on that surface. This, of course, is a plus. If only Federer was a bit worse on clay, no one would have to discuss this "ownage."

    Federer was second best on one surface to a player that many consider to be the best clay courter of all time (or at least one of the best).

    I can think of something negative for every player who is capable of being considered as the goat, and that is why everybody has such vastly different opinions on the subject.

    Borg is definitely a candidate in my opinion, but I think there are quite a few things that would hold most people back from saying he is the goat.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  29. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Borg simply quit the game when the going got tough, that's why he can't be GOAT. It's like if Federer quit in 2009 after the 3 straight slam final losses to Nadal. But of course he didn't.
     
  30. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That's a myth. It was politics.

    Borg has many accomplishments going for him that indicate that perhaps he is the GOAT.
     
  31. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    My previous post in bold, so you won't miss it:

    Borg left because of disputes with the ITF over how many tournaments he would have to play. It was in January 1983, during the Masters tournament, when Borg announced that he wouldn't be returning to tennis full-time. Borg had already missed all of 1982 apart from Monte Carlo and exhibition tournaments.
     
  32. JAY1

    JAY1 Semi-Pro

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    ............................
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    While one can understand Federites hating Borg, those that enjoyed that Golden Era wonder if Federer,Nadal and the rest would be making the amount of money they make had it not been before a Laver, a Rosewall, a Lendl, a Borg, a Connors and a Mc Enroe, just to throw out some names...

    The amazing thing about that sterile discussion is that tennis was never so popular and that is a failure that *******s and generally speaking, newtards have to examine
     
  34. JAY1

    JAY1 Semi-Pro

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    Hi Kiki & Borg Number One,
    I've read many of your post's and message's and we have even replied to each other on a few occasions. You two and a couple of other's on here have really stood out as 'tennis experts of the golden era'! I'm putting together a book of 'The Golden era', i've read High Strung & Epic and even though there good reads they could have been a lot better!
    I've already written a few bio samples etc to display my writing style to potential pubisher's etc and the feedback has been great, but I feel to write the best ever tennis book I would need to work with another 3 or 4 'experts'. I also strongly feel to write an amazing book it needs 3 or 4 perspectives on it.
    I have some exciting idea's about the way to approach this book and I would love to be able to tell you both about it. Are you interested in being involved?
    Many thanks, Jay
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
  35. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I cannot understand this. One can and should respect (and like) both players, IMO.
     
  36. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    it's a stupid statement kiki made, just trying to stir sh1t up
     
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    of course.
     
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I wasn´t talking about Federer but about federites.Big difference, please try better next time...
     
  39. JAY1

    JAY1 Semi-Pro

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    Thats great Kiki! Here is my email address, can you email me please so I can run the idea past you?
    jay_henley@hotmail.com thats a _ between jay & Henley.

    Many thanks
    Jay
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    What period of tennis and players do you want to cover up?
     
  41. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    No I got what you said, but generalizing that you can see how Federites hate Borg..how so? What gave you that impression? The only sure thing is you hate just about anything 21st century and that's been a consistent theme you've spitting (Fed, current surfaces, etc.).
     
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I also prefer the AC Milan of the late 80´s-early 90´s than XXI century Milan.A bunch of oldies and mercenaries.
     
  43. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    my point still stands, why hate contemporary tennis so much?
     
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No hate at all, just I don´t think it´s been good for the sport and I have stated many times that i rank Federer in the top ten of the whole eras even if his position weakens because of playing in a weak era and being owned by his nº2.If somebody told me he was the most talented ever player, I could or not agree, but I just think he is talented enough to be regarded as that.Like Tilden, for instance.But I link any player greatness in relation to his context.
     
  45. JUAN_PRADO

    JUAN_PRADO Rookie

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  46. 3fees

    3fees Hall of Fame

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    No doubt B Borg is somewhere in the GOAT.

    :mrgreen:
     
  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    In 1974 there was a major revolution in tennis, maybe its biggest ever
    Many thought Connors was its leader.
    Wrong.It was Borg
     
  48. Tagg

    Tagg New User

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    no he isn't

    here's why:

    no australian open, no us open, not many weeks at no 1

    you can argue him being the GOAT on natural surfaces, yes

    but overall, no

    nonetheless, he's easily in the top 5 of the open era, so that's elite company
     
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    While he failed at the 1975 and 1977 Masters finals and 1974 and 1975 WCT Finals, Borg won a big Dallas title in 76, beating Vilas and his two Masters wins in 1979 and 1980, as Borg number one keps on saying, were just huge wins, that can stand any comparative against any player past or present.

    Think for a minute about his path in 1979: beat day in day out world´s number 5 Roscoe Tanner ( who had just had his best season), world´s number 3 Jimmy Connors, in an all time classic match, world´s number 2 John Mc Enroe, in a very tight semi that ended on a tie break and finally, world´s number 4 Vitas Gerulaitis ( also coming off his greatest season).

    He did it again in 1980, even if he lost an unsubstantial rr match against Gene Mayer.He defeated world´s number 5, Jose Luis Clerc in straights, world´s number 2 Mc Enroe in that polemichal rr match, which again was decided in a thrid set tie breaker, world´s number 3 Jimmy Connors ( who had won the other major indoor tournament that year, the WCT Finals) and destroyed world´s number 4 Ivan Lendl, fresh from his DC win, in the finals.It really couldn´t be greater than this.
     
  50. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Kiki, great post. I like the Zeppelin avatar! The WCT Finals in Dallas were great tournaments run by Lamar Hunt. The Masters YEC wins for '79 and '80 were big. In those years, that was the fourth biggest tournament on the Tour in terms of prize money, strength of field, attendance. Borg went 5-0 indoors versus Lendl, Connors, and McEnroe in those two Masters Cup tournaments played at New York's historic Madison Square Garden. He played some outstanding tennis in his close wins over Connors and McEnroe, while he dismantled Lendl in the Jan. 81 final. They would get crowds up to about 19K at Madison Square Garden for the Borg-McEnroe matches. Bjorn Borg won an official 23 ATP indoor titles. From Jan. 1980- Dec. 1981 the 8 biggest tournaments were The French Open, Wimbledon, U.S. Open, and the Masters YEC tournaments played in Jan. 80 and Jan. 81. Borg won 5 of those eight tournaments and he reached the finals of the other three as he turned 25.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013

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