Blood flow stimulation therapy for knee injury

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by DonDiego, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. DonDiego

    DonDiego Hall of Fame

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    I have minor meniscus tear, and doctors say the meniscus takes time to heal (or never does) because ther'es not enough blood circulating in this area.

    Then I come across this product, which is a blood flow stimulation therapy, designed to promote blood flow in injured tissue using electromagnetic radiation:
    http://www.kingbrand.com/Knee-Injur...b&xc=969dd8bb0e205ba18da0582920c4afdada7727d6

    If it works, it could indeed accelerate the recovery for anyone suffering from meniscus damage.

    Could be a scam, but I'm wondering if any of you ever used it, or heard about someone (playing any sports) who used it. Anyone? Thanks.
     
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  2. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

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    I have not But can personally attest to the efficacy of hyaluronic acid injections (anD plenty of rest)!!!!! :) BHBH
     
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  3. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    An easy way to help injuries heal through increased blood flow is to use very light weights at slow rep speeds. For the knee do leg extensions with a very light weight at a rep speed of at least 6 seconds up and 6 seconds down. This will really increase blood flow to the knee and help it heal.
     
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  4. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Blood can't flow where there's no blood vessels. Parts of the meniscus have essentially no blood vessels, like some other cartilage areas, and all the electromagnetic radiation in the universe isn't going to change that.
     
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  5. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    (well, not change it for the BETTER, anyway. It COULD make matters worse. A common adverse reaction of radiation therapy for cancers is that the radiation causes scarring of blood vessels that causes them to constrict, REDUCING blood flow to the area)
     
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  6. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Light exercise, getting the heartbeat up, is the best.
    Several broken legs that needed surgery, pins, and they made several THOUSANDS of dollars on dialysis machines proved that.
    You don't even have to move the are near the busted part, you only need to increase heartbeat to increase circulation and the body opens up all the arteries and veins it can to do the job.
    One of my dialysis machine bills was $4,500 for just 3 weeks of trice daily use.
     
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  7. Sumo

    Sumo Semi-Pro

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    This is my understanding of that area of the body.
    Can't hurt to get the heart going though, but I'd stay away from using that joint.
     
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  8. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    looks like a scam..but u never know
     
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  9. usta2050

    usta2050 Rookie

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    it does look like they try to market it a lot without any real customers...if this thing works, nadal would've endorsed it.
     
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  10. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

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    Though frustrating, REST IS ALSO KEY. You need to rest to allow the body an opportunity to heal, and then gradually work back up to speed. ;) BHBH
     
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  11. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Balance between raising your heartbeat for 1/2 hour, then resting the whole body for 3 hours, or around that rate.
    You need both.
    Wiggling toes until you almost cramp the foot is one exersise I should have done for each of the broken legs.
     
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  12. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I've read an estimate that, by age 70, 30% of the population will have had meniscus injuries and that most of them don't know it. If true, I guess that percentage would be a lot higher for tennis players.

    I don't know if the meniscus sometimes heals or remodels (?) in some way. My meniscus tear from 2011 seems OK - no surgery, saw the Dr, got MRI, stopped tennis for 3 months and worked back into tennis slowly over two months.
     
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  13. RogueFLIP

    RogueFLIP Semi-Pro

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    Interesting little device...

    Depending on the location of the tear and severity, sometimes meniscal tears can heal by themselves.

    Personal experience: I tore my lateral meniscus (can't remember exactly where, and my MRI film/reports are somewhere...:oops:) along with three other ligaments in my knee. Did some pre-surgical rehab. Post op debrief and surgeon said he didn't need to repair the meniscus as it healed itself. No problems since.

    Something else to consider. Reducing compensatory muscle spasms/knots/restrictions, trigger points, and correcting possible misalignments of the pelvis may also reduce the pain caused by meniscal tears.
     
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  14. scotus

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    How about prolotherapy?

    You could have your own blood injected there.

    Whether it would do any good still remains a question.
     
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  15. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    ^^ yes, still an open question. One large concern is that prolotherapy doesn't promote an organized collection of tissue but rather a form of scar tissue that may cause its own problems.
     
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  16. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    Was the location of your meniscus tear that healed close to blood supply?
     
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  17. SteveI

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    Your tear must be minor and in an area that has the correct amount of blood flow to tear. Since they did an MRI, it is clear that is what they saw. Mine was not and was a moderate tear. It was the scope for me. Recovery times are all over the place based on many factors. I was back to work in 3 days and teaching tennis (not playing) in 2 weeks. I did not have to do physical therapy, just follow a list of instructions and exercises. Full recover was about 9 months. I was back playing after 3 months. Light doubles and drilling and coaching/teaching. I was over 50 when I had the scoping so that is about normal for my repair. The bottom line is common sense and backing off when you take it too far. Listen to your body.. don't be stupid. Take care of your knees unless you plan to go full knee replacement. Not fun..
     
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  18. OHBH

    OHBH Semi-Pro

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    Scam. They keep marketing it as a FDA REGISTED device not FDA tested or FDA approved only registered. So the FDA is only really aware of this product and probably don't bother with it because they know it doesn't do anything and won't hurt anybody.
     
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  19. Chas Tennis

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    I don't know.

    MRI wording -

    "There is some internal degenerate signal within the lateral meniscus as well as a focal partial thickness tear at the posterior root attachment."

    Impression: "1. Intermediate-grade, partial thickness tear of the posterior root attachment of the lateral meniscus." .....................

    I don't know the blood flow to the "posterior root attachment" of the lateral meniscus.

    The Dr thought that it was not so bad and said I could get back to tennis slowly after about two weeks. The joint had suddenly felt out of position in a tennis match and was still feeling bad. I did not want to run as soon as the Dr recommended. The knee soon felt OK except for any running. I took off 3 months and when I started back it was difficult to run and the knee was still not right. I spent a month slowing increasing my running distance on a rubberized track. I then started back to tennis very slowing over 1-2 months. I also requested a posture evaluation for knee & hip alignment issues and received PT.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
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  20. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    "Blood flow" is the Great Snake Oil of medicine in the last 50 years. The notion that some kind of limitation of blood flow to a particular area is crucial to that area healing or recovering has never been demonstrated with the possible exception of coronary arteries, which are usually too atherosclerotic to be dilated anyway. Moreover, as was demonstrated years ago when papaverine was being touted for dementia as a vasodilator (an issue that has absolutely nothing to do with most dementias), it was found that attempting to increase blood flow to a particular area often had the opposite effect by virtue of a "steal syndrome" (the area with poorer circulation tends to be that way because of rigid and somewhat atherosclerotic blood vessels, so a vasodilator would dilate OTHER blood vessels in that area of the body, increasing circulation to areas that don't need it and "stealing" circulation from areas of concern.)
     
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  21. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Why don't you use the traditional method for blood flow stimulation, if you know what I mean :wink:
     
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  22. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    ^^ not so traditional, but Viagra and others drugs in that class are now a common therapy for pulmonary hypertension, as they appear to dilate the blood vessels in the lung. "Do you always cough up blood or are you just happy to see me?"
     
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  23. scotus

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    If a player gets winded and experiences shortness of breath during tennis matches, would Viagra help with that? Or is there any danger in exercising immediately after taking Viagra (Well, except for the possible danger of code violation for swinging 2 sticks at once)?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
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  24. Bagel

    Bagel New User

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    I'm dealing with a meniscus tear right now. The doctor I went to said I should have surgery, but I did some research on line and found out that according to a recent Harvard sponsored study physical therapy is just as effective as surgery.

    I looked at this magnetic generating device also and could not find any clinical studies or anything from a reputability source that would lead me to believe it works. After disucssing with my physical theorpist I believe the key is doing the home exercies and stretches religously twice a day, every day. That strengthens the muscles and takes the stress off the knee allowing it to heal. Someone also mentioned above that it increases blood flow. That would be a bonus.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog...or-some-with-torn-knee-cartilage-201303206002
     
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  25. Mr.Lob

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    Surgery for what? Repair or remove torn part of meniscus? To repair it needs to be the part of meniscus that has good blood flow.
     
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  26. comeback

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    Can someone describe what a meniscus injury feels like?..I sprained my inside meniscus knee twice;; both times it healed in approx 1 month..However my stretch; when i grab my foot and bring it backwards towards my butt (standing quad stretch) is limited by about 3-4 inches less than my other leg; which easily touches my butt..
    https://www.google.com/search?q=qua...F5-essential-stretches-after-a-run%2F;320;400
     
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  27. comeback

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    i googled to try and find my own answer..I don't "lock up" also no swelling..I can run ok..But this difficulty stretching must mean it's permanently injured right?
     
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  28. moonballs

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    @DonDiego, @comeback, let me share my experience of a meniscus tear happen just during the MLK weekend from skiing. What I feel is very sharp pain along the joint line of the medial side of the knee, when changing the extension angle of the knee or pressing the joint line.

    I saw a doctor, got the MRI, saw the doctor and another one for second opinion. All I learned from the doctors are consistent to what google shows. Small tears can heal it self and it largely depends on the location of the tear. Near the peripheral of the meniscus there are some blood vessels (while near the middle of the hone the meniscus is said to be "white"). If surgery is necessary, the common operation is to trim off the torn part (which I guess is sort of moving around that is causing pain). Suturing the tear together is not advised anymore because the lack of healing in the tissue.

    ETA: what i have is a grade 3 (not so good) thin tear near the edge (which could be good). I do have other friends who had worst problems and one of them still has the lock-up problem even after surgery.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2015
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  29. Bagel

    Bagel New User

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    removal of the "flap" or lose part on the inner portion and clean it out. The tear is right on the border line of the red/white area. Because of my age and the nature of the tear repair was not an option. However the therapists said there is a good chance it would scar over and be servicable without surgery. Another reason I opted for PT.
     
    #29
  30. Bagel

    Bagel New User

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    Comeback - I'm no expert but from my experience and what I have read pain is not a good metric to determine if you have a tear or not. In my case I thought I had a sever sprain at first, then after a couple of weeks most all of the pain subsided except for an intermittent level 1 or 2 in the medial area. Where the pain occurs and how much would depend on where the tear occurs. The only way you will know for sure if you have a tear is to have an MRI. One source said there are 9 million meniscus tears a year in the US and most people don't even know they had one - many of them are our peers. I tore mine serving, by torquing the left leg, which is one of the most common ways. The older you are the more susceptible you are to this type injury.
     
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  31. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    My quads limit that stretch. Maybe you have a tight/short rectus femorus? Playing tennis does not lengthen my rectus femorus. I can feel mine are tight by pressing on them when I can't stretch any farther.

    For my 3 meniscus tears after the initial pain it did not hurt much but I knew for certain that I did not want to run, especially over uneven ground such as grass.

    I tried to heal each by taking off at least 3 months, there were two MRIs and the Dr approvaled to try and heal each. One injury he said that I would need surgery and twice he thought healing might work. I got one surgery in 1999 where the surgeon estimated that he removed 30-40% of my medial meniscus. The two others were able to heal. Each time my legs got way out of condition and I needed considerable conditioning for some weeks before I could play.

    I believe that some meniscus injuries fall more back into place that others. If it is out of place you must do something to fix it. A different situation is when the knee also already has arthritis. There is a long and informative thread.

    There are always surgery risks that should be considered.

    These issues need a well qualified specialist to decide.

    Don't have confidence that you know what should be done, there's always uncertainty.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
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  32. comeback

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    Thanks Moonballs, i didn't want the expense of an MRI..i don't have sharp pain just some medium pain only when i force a stretch..I hope your's heals ok
     
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  33. comeback

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    Thanks Bagel, i'm trying to hold off the expense of an MRI, as i said before i only get pain when i force the quad stretch past a certain point..I'll keep doing my own rehab and see what happens.
     
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  34. comeback

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  35. Mr.Lob

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    A friend in my tennis league tore his meniscus just stepping out of his car and pivoting his foot. Said he heard a pop. Doctor says try to rehab it first. So apparently not bad.

    If you have full range of motion and minimum pain, I think rehabbing first a good idea. Not like you have anything to lose, that I know of.

    But, curious to why your doctor thinks surgery is the only way to go?
     
    #35
  36. Shroud

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    I had similar experiences.

    Maybe 4 years ago I tore my meniscus. The doc after the MRI gave me some exercises and said that if I healed then he had done his job but if I didnt then he would have to do his job.

    He gave me some exercises involving a dish towel for resistance. I did them but didnt really like them and was on crutches a while.

    Its been a long time but I recall finding the Pose running method and there was a guy there that mentioned a meniscus tear and how he could run again. He would lay on his back and do bicycles. He said he worked up to something crazy like 3 sets of 20 minutes each.

    I started I think with 3 sets of 1 minute and worked up to 3 sets of 3 minutes IIRC. That seemed to really help and I healed. I then started walking 30+ minutes a day.

    Sometimes I feel things a bit when I climb ladders but I am playing tennis and all is well.

    My understanding is that it really depends on the location as for whether it heals or not.

    I also had a Baker's cyst in the back of the knee. I thought that he said I would always have fluid and discomfort with that but it certainly isnt the case.

    Good luck
     
    #36
  37. Bagel

    Bagel New User

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    He didn't say it was the only way to go but he recommended it up front becasue of the severity of the tear, location and my age. He was basically agnostic on physical therapy but based on what the therapist told me and the minimal amount of pain I decided I would give that a shot first. I'm optimistic.
    Obviously surgeons make more money from surgery than they do on PT referrals so you have to wonder about that as well.
     
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  38. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    I am not clear on the blood flow issue.

    But there is a lot of variety with meniscus injuries. Some are more difficult to heal than others for mechanical reasons resulting from the nature of the injury and its location.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=men...gSqzYFw&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=925&bih=575#imgdii=_

    When they take an MRI a radiologist specialist writes a report on your MRI. Usually your Dr receives that written report. Always request a copy of the written MRI report from the imaging lab or your Dr. It usually is a sort of checklist for several knee conditions that appear in the MRI.

    My MRI in 1999, in addition to the meniscus injury, showed some damage under the patella, a very common location for arthritis. Years later, I learned that I could do a stretch to reduce the pressure on that joint (patellofemoral). That issue was not addressed in my meniscus treatment. I wish I had followed up years earlier on the clear finding in the MRI report written in 1999. Get the written copy of your MRI. Study each term and its condition. For the meniscus tear look at the results in whatever detail the written report has. Google all terms.

    My 1999 MRI did not show my injury well, there was a little more darkness near the center where the meniscus is very thin and hard to image. The slight shadowing on the MRI was described as 'consistent with a meniscus tear'. My Dr thought the odds were 75% I'd need surgery and 25% I'd heal. He said it was OK for me to try to heal it. I took three months off to see how my knee would heal. No pain, but no improvement. I knew that I could not run. I got surgery.

    For my second injury (left knee this time), with a meniscus tear at the posterior root (not sure of the exact words) as seen on the MRI, the Dr thought that my chance of healing was good. Note, he had an MRI result on the location and nature of the injury and, I assume, had estimated the likelihood of its healing.

    Last injury (same right knee injured in 1999) there was no MRIs, but an X Ray that showed my first likely 'early arthritis' event. He approved trying to heal. 3 months off from tennis and it was OK. Have played tennis for two years since and both knees are OK and no pain.

    I think that if you try to heal with some of the meniscus tears, for example, bucket tear, it might get worse. Best to have the approval of a well qualified Dr.

    I have had friends who experienced problems following meniscus surgery. Blood clots in three cases.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2015
    #38
  39. moonballs

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    It is the location, whether there is blood flow to the tear. And if the tear is big, like loose piece flapping around.

    The exercise you did, is it like you are doing a crunch except you only move your legs in the air as peddling a bike?
     
    #39
  40. RogueFLIP

    RogueFLIP Semi-Pro

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    My favorite test for possible mensical tears:

    http://www.pthaven.com/page/show/158019-thessaly-test

    Everyone's different in terms of symptoms of a tear. Some have pain, some don't, some have loss of ROM, some don't. Some may have a feeling of "locking" or "giving out", some don't.

    Could be something serious, or could be something like some tight tissues.

    Good luck and speedy recovery.
     
    #40
  41. comeback

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    Thanks Rogue, this test helps me; my problem is a bad sprain and ROM, i don't think i have tear
     
    #41
  42. Ace47

    Ace47 New User

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    Wow, this is an interesting conversation to come across. It's really interesting to me because I happen to own the company that makes that stuff! I hope you don't mind if I take the time to address all the points that were raised.

    First, is it legitimate? Yes, it is. The BFST device is a class II medical device that is registered with both the FDA and Health Canada. And that isn't just a form, we had agents from both orgs come and spend a week each with us examing our facilities, our engineering and our claims. We are also ISO-13485 (required for medical device manufactureres) and get audited every year. We've been selling this product for about 5 years now and we have a large number of customers who have come back more than once for subsequent injuries after trying our product the first time.

    Blood flow and the meniscus is an interesting point. How your body works is really fascinating and complicated but here's a simplified explanation. Your circulatory system is really just the plumbing and doesn't connect to much of the tissue that it ultimately services. Your capillaries are the smallest vessels and they really exchange the 'supplies' in the blood stream to your interstitial fluid which is essentially the 'sea' in which surrounds your cells. It also picks up the waste for removal from the interstitial fluid. Most cells absorb the good from, and discharge the bad to, the interstitial fluid.

    The meniscus really does not have capilaries within, but it is composed of specialized, living cells. Much of those cells are collagen which is very hardy and is a common building block of the body in areas with limited blood flow near by. It depends on diffusion of resources and waste through surrounding tissue and interstitial fluids which are still maintained by the nearest blood flow network. Don't doubt for a moment that the quality of that supply network is dependant on the circulatory system because it is. The diffusion is also largely facilitated by motion, so motion is important but take note THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU NEED TO LOAD THE KNEE with 'strengthening' loads, you only need to keep it moving regularly to facilitate the diffusion. You can stimulate the circulation component with BFST rather than heavily loading your muscles.

    This is the essence of Blood Flow Stimulation Therapy for something like a torn meniscus. Let BFST stimulate the circulatory system. Go through motion to keep the diffusion going and do it without load so you are not damaging the meniscus further. Your meniscus is real living tissue that can heal. It just does it very slowly because collagen evolves so slowly. It is interesting to note that collagen is a key component of healing almost any injury in your body. We try to talk in laymans terms about injury healing on our site here : http://www.kingbrand.com/wound-healing.php?REF=10PV12.47

    Most orthoscopic meniscus surgery isn't a repair, but really just a trimming of the meniscus around the outside edges. This definitely gets rid of the pain, because that's the only location of nerves in your meniscus. Cut them out an the pain is gone. But it is also the source of much of the limited blood flow so I'm not a big fan. Usually it takes a while, but while the trimming may stop the pain, the damage and destruction continues until the meniscus is severly destroyed and the next pain you feel is from bone on bone. At this point you then have no choice but knee replacement surgery.

    I want to say though, that knee replacement surgery itself is not a bad thing. It's no minor process, because they are literally chopping the tops off both bones, putting new artificial caps on them and an artificial joint, but the solution works great. There are excellent artifical knees out there that perform great. I would recommend you have it done by a knee replacement specialist who does nothing but knees as opposed to a general orthopedic surgeon. A bad job isn't common but it's a nightmare so go with the specialist who eat, sleeps, and breathes knees. When done right using good parts, the solution is awesome.

    This link is our best page on meniscus injuries:
    http://www.kingbrand.com/Knee-Injury-Torn-Meniscus.php?REF=10PV52.47
    Yes, it is a bit sales pitchy, but the reality is that there are a lot of sites selling the snake oil and gimmicks that we have to live amongst online. Welcome to the world of the internet. Having a quality product that works isn't enough. We have to present a compelling message just to be heard above the noise of all the junk.

    I hope you don't mind my including these links. But this post happens to be about my company and I feel pretty passionate about making sure you understand what we're about.
     
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