bORG VS lENDL, THE RIVALRY WE MISSED

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by kiki, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    True, Pecci always was dangerous for Borg and so was , of course, Panatta, whose record at RG vs Borg is 2-0¡¡¡¡
     
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    +1:) ooooohhh
     
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Pecci beat Barazutti,Solomon,Vilas and Connors one after the other at 79 FO.Likewise, Wilander beat Lendl,Gerulaitis,Clerc and Vilas at 1982 FO.

    Pecci beat Borg at his home (Montecarlo).

    Panatta defeated Borg 2-0 at RG¡¡¡
     
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Clerc was a smooth baseliner, his inside out FH shot was considered, right, the best in the game.Good serve, good gliding on clay, but not too strong indoors or grass.His best yr was 81, he aalmost defeats JMac at home in the DC final, after powndering, on fast indoor such a serious customer as Roscoe Tanner.His game was well suited against all the top guns other than Borg, whom I don´t recall beating-
     
  5. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    What Wilander did, at 17 years old, in the 1982 Roland Garros was simply amazing.

    A 17 y.o. guy defeats nº3 in the world (and previous year's runner-up losing in five sets to Borg) Ivan Lendl (in five sets) in R16, then defeats nº6 in the world (and RG runner-up two years earlier) Gerulaitis in four sets in QF, then defeats nº5 in the world (and one of the best clay court players of the time) Jose Luis Clerc in four sets in SF, and then defeats nº4 in the world Guillermo Vilas (Roland Garros champion in 1977 and runner-up other times and a giant on clay) in four sets in the final.

    Not bad for a (17 y.o.) teenager.
     
  6. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Have you ever offered an opinion on Tilden?

    If so, the statement applies to you as well. :)
     
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, I did so.Don´t take it so seriously, this is just a forum.You are a guy willing to learn and go further than most newtards, I can see it in some of your posts.

    OTOH, I understand that for somebody not too familiar with those times, Rosewall´s record at Wimbledon is deceiving.He couldn´t play it in his 10 prime years, and of course, we will never know the answer.Tennis organization was so completely different then, you just can´t use the same glasses you know.
     
  8. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    not true ..borg beat panatta in RG 1975 ...
     
  9. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, its sad that wilander's RG 82 run isn't talked about more ...... that was a brutal draw by any standards and wilander at 17 overcame that to win it ......

    Having said that though, if borg was there, wilander would have pretty less chance of beating him ... seems a tad unfair mention that, but couldn't help it ...
     
  10. big ted

    big ted Hall of Fame

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    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1125431/1/index.htm

    heres an interesting article from 1982 before the french open about borg. even if they let him play the french without qualifying his mind or heart wasnt into it and he wouldnt have won.. kind of similar to what seemed to happen to wilander after 88 or courier in 94? tho borg achieved much more.. seemed to lose his concentration and intensity
     
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You are right.Then it is 2-1.Borg also beat him at Godo 1975 and Foro Italico 1978.
     
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Some day, sooner or later, Borg had to lose to another baseliner on clay...
     
  13. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    Thanks, very interesting.
     
  14. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    That IS a very interesting article from the time itself when Bjorn was trying to come back in 1982, not seen that before, thanks.
     
  15. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    And to add to that, Bjorn turned up in Las Vegas not long after Monte Carlo (April 1982) attempting to qualify for the Alan King Classic and was beaten by Dick Stockton.
    I wish the sport's authorities and Bjorn had come to a compromise.
    If Bjorn had been allowed to play the seven tournaments he wanted and the French, Wimbledon and US Open, that makes 10 tournaments anyway. Then again, the rules have to be the same for everyone.
    As it was and with the rules then, I don't think Bjorn could have won any Grand Slam events in 82 having to qualify. He certainly wasn't in good enough form in match-play in spring 82.
     
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    the greatest question mark is...how Borg didn´t enter exclusively WCT tour, which had just broken with Gran Prix and would be glad to acommodate its rules for Borg?

    It is a very good answer for those, like myself, that question Borg´s sincerity of intentions.IMO, he just wanted an excuse to leave, that´s it.If not, he´d have joined Hunt´s croop ( Lendl owned that tour with 10 wins including the Spring,Fall and Winter finals)
     
  17. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    Good points, kiki. I didn't think of the WCT Tour. The WCT tour was there in 1982 and Lendl truly dominated it.
     
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Truth is that Hunt needed to back his boost move to break tennis structure with big stars.Connors, as usual, said NO to WCT; lendl, attracted by the short draws and big money became its main star.Hunt even gave Mc enroe a free pass to the Finals, even if he didn´t play one previous event...so, Hunt would have thrown in the red carpet for Borg to walk in.

    No, Borg had the perfect excuse to quit the sport...till Lamar Hunt showed up.
     
  19. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I still remember the FO of 1982. I expected Vilas, Clerc, or Lendl to win. When Wilander won, I thought: "Who?"
    (I had never heard of Wilander. Indeed, unseeded at the '81 FO, he had never before won a title on the ATP circuit.)

    At 17, he had long (but curly) hair and seemed like another Swedish Borg-clone.

    Another Swede with long hair winning the FO. Makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  20. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Very interesting article big ted. As some players mentioned, it was a big error on the part of the Tour to ask Borg to qualify. He should have been able to play the majors without qualifying and he wasn't going to play the qualifying matches.

     
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Why Borg didn´t enter the WCT tour if he wanted to keep playing?

    That circuit, with big money, possibility to pick the spots, short drawns and exotic venues was the perfect one for him at that point.

    Maybe, the biggest question mark of the open era.

    That decision may have changed history.
     
  22. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, but I don't think he'd have declined enough by 82 for wilander to beat him ....

    in general, I think lendl would've had a clearly better chance than wilander to beat borg with borg declining ....
     
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Maybe, truth is that Lendl´s two wins over Borg were on hard (Toronto) and indoors (Basle).But he was already a very strong clay courter, anyway.

    Of course, Kodes was old enough to expect any win from him by that time.He retired in 1980.
     
  24. big ted

    big ted Hall of Fame

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    i guess his favorite tournaments were on the itf/grandprix tours?
    wimbledon, french, monte carlo, etc.., and him being european wasnt the wct an american tour?

    anyway i think you may have been right earlier, he probably knew he was on his way out anyway... he played monte carlo in 82 and 83 but you could say his last match was essentially that 81 us open final... borg even said in interviews he struggled with motivation all year in 81 so it was just the inevitable that was eventually going to happen and the tour didnt make it any easier for him trying to make him qualify
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Many WCT events in Europe, and the Autumn finals also in that continent.No excuse at all, he had alreadpy planned to quit and was just looking for an excuse...
     
  26. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Borg was serving with 2 balls in his hand during that match(per tennis magazine)
     
  27. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    See: http://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/20/sports/borg-advances.html (Borg beats Amaya in a qualifying match in Vegas).

    It was during this time that Borg was playing some qualifying matches. He would later be asked to play the qualifiers at both the FO and Wimbledon by Tour officials. He was adament that he would not be play the qualifiers there and by March 1983, Borg had retired. He wanted to continue playing the majors and a somewhat reduced schedule at least for a while. This was after a remarkable amount of play over years. Borg was a remarkable prodigy in that he turned pro at 14 and won a Davis Cup match at 15. He had won junior Wimbledon and three majors while still only 20. He played a heavy official schedule and also a heavy unofficial schedule on top of that between 14-25. He was feeling mental burnout and wanted to reset. He would have played both Wimbledon and the US Open in 1982 and beyond had he reached a compromise with the Tour, but they didn't. Borg refused to fold and exited the Tour. Both sides suffered as a consequence. I would have loved to have seen Borg compete when he was 26-30, but we didn't get the chance. A part of Borg's persona is that he's very resolute and determined, but also very stubborn. That's a big reason he was so tough. Listen, by 25, Borg had started becoming his own man, having been coached by the very rigorous Lennart Bergelin. He wouldn't take orders from anyone by then, including Tour Officials and his own coach (See Connors as well and his dealings with the Frenach Open). He had lived a very rigourous existence from 14-25 and he wanted to reset having felt burned out in 1981. He knew that he wanted to reduce his schedule for a while and focus on winning more majors especially. It would have been great to have seen Borg, along with Jimmy, McEnroe, Lendl, Wilander, and then Becker by 1984..all with graphite frames and a lot of VS gut! Regardless, we are so fortunate to have had players like Borg and then Lendl who did so much to make the game of tennis what it is today. That's true greatness, to impact a whole sport like that.
     
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That rivalry is the lost piece of the chain of the whole Golden Era of tennis.

    But still, they played about 12 matches, including 1982 exos and Lendl won 3 of them, 2 indoors and 1 hard court outdoors.

    The 1980 Masters F and the 1981 RG F marked the start of what could have become a fantastic rivalry for european tennis.

    We had to wait till Lendl played Wilander and Becker, but that was right after Borg hung up the racket.
     
  29. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Folks, changing to graphite does nothing to stop mental lapses. Borg has to stay as mentally tough from 1983-1986 as we remember him from 1975-1980 if he is to continue to handle Lendl's growing game at the same success rate That is the big if, not whether he can handle the power, or the serve or the increasing stamina Lendl gained

    I don't think comparing him to Connors as he ages is fruitful. He's more likely to see the advantages and disadvantages that Evert saw after she changed to graphite. They both hit a hell of a lot of balls for a hell of a long time while they ground down opponents. That kind of 'tunnel vision' and incessant concentration in a baseliner takes a mental toll earlier rather than later in a career . And then to discover in your late twenties that tennis players had to endure this thing called 'nerves', an entirely foreign concept to young Evert and Borg. Graphite sure doesn't help with that problem either.

    We just can't see Borg's mental and emotional state as staying the same as we remember it. Now the graphite might propel some compensatory strategies into a modern game like it did with Evert, but the cost playing that kind of style from such and early age must still be paid in fluctuating mental strength. Ivan would have gotten a lot more gifts in those matches post 1982 than he had prior.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    champions always raise to the new situations.So, I think a new, fresh Borg would have found a way to fight on equal terms with the increasing power game of Lendl and later Becker, and the challenge of a cc player like him in Wilander, not to mention the challenge that Mc Enroe placed upon him.

    But he would certainly need new adjustments.He did those adjustments early in his career to turn tables on Nastase and Connors...it all depended on his will and menthal aspect.
     
  31. newpball

    newpball Legend

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    ........ :-?


    :grin:

    (Quoted a larger version of the image - NB)

    [​IMG]
     
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  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Coming back to Borg vs Lendl

    In 1982 Borg only played exos ( and Montecarlo) and one of the most important took place in several australian cities; well, Borg won all his matches against him, including five setters (Mc Enroe and Gerulaitis, who was very popular down under, were also playing them).

    Their last match, however, was an easy win for Lendl, in early 83 at the Chicago Exhibitional
     
  33. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    The first thing I noticed while watching some of that clip (unfortunately it's too blurry and difficult to see the ball in the youtube clip or I would have watched it all) was that Borg was really trying to pick on the Lendl backhand but Lendl seemed to be handling that strategy pretty well for the most part.

    The 2nd thing was something which always amazes me every time I see it and that's Borg's movement. Just incredible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    If you want to see some Borg fine moving against Lendl, watch 1980 Masters Final, on fast carpet.

    Borg made it look easy to return those bullets...
     
  35. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    I would have loved to have seen this rivalry develop, especially after their 5 set matches at Basel in 1980 (a huge win for Lendl) and RG in 1981. Like Mac, Lendl looked up to Borg and revered him.

    They met each other 4 times during the 1982 season:
    October 1982 - Montreal Molson Challenge SF - Borg 7-6 7-6
    November 1982 - Perth Swan Lager Super Challenge SF - Borg 6-4 1-6 6-3
    November 1982 - Sydney AKAI Gold Challenge RR - Borg 6-1 6-4 6-2
    January 1983 - Chicago Challenge of Champions SF - Lendl 6-1 7-5

    Lendl was insanely dominant indoors in 1982, winning title after title (including the WCT Finals and Masters amongst others), and beating Mac and Connors left, right and centre under a roof that year. It was one of the best indoor seasons that any player has ever had. So for Borg to beat him 3 times out of 4 indoors that season was an excellent achievement.
     
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It was, Gizo.

    In fact, the only player that had a good record against the insane version of Lendl indoors that 1982 was, precisely, Bjorn Borg.

    Lendl also won the first EEC Invitational tournament at Antwerp, the famous Golden and Diamonds Racket Trophy, beating in 4 sets John Mc Enroe.
     
  37. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    Yes Lendl had a 6-1 record against McEnroe and a 3-0 record against Connors during the 1982 season. His performances where he destroyed them back to back to win the Masters is among the best indoor tennis I've ever seen from any player.

    Even with him playing that well on his strongest surface/setting, Borg was still a formidable match-up for him.
     
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    3-0 indoors vs Connors? I mean, Moolson and Masters, where is the other win I missed (Cincinnati was hard courts)?

    Connors also beat Ivan at the 1982 Chicago Invitational, 6-2,3-6,6-3 in January.
    I have it 2-1 for Lendl indoors and 3-2 overall ( with 1-1 on hard courts)

    As for Lendl vs Mac, Mac won also their Chicago match but lost at MSG,Dallas,Europe vs America, 2 matches at Australia and Antwerp, so yeah, it is 6-1 indoors ( I watched live one of those)

    Outdoors, Lendl beat John at Toronto and Flushing Meadows.8-1 against the best player of 1981 is completely astonishing and shows to what point Mc Enroe was a beaten man before entering the court to play him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  39. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    I always think that as Chicago took place the week before the Masters, it should count towards the season for the previous calendar year, i.e. Chicago in January 1982 belongs to the 1981 season, and Chicago in January 1983 belongs to the 1982 season, just like the following Masters tournaments. To me it wouldn't make sense to count Chicago in January 1982 as part of the 1982 season, but then the Masters a week later as part of the 1981 season. So they should both be treated the same way and allocated to the same season.

    So for 1982 Lendl vs. Connors indoors:

    Toronto Molson Challenge RR – Lendl 6-4 6-3
    Chicago Challenge of Champions F – Lendl 4-6 6-4 7-5 6-4
    Masters SF - Lendl 6-3 6-1

    Lendl vs. McEnroe indoors:

    Toronto Molson Challenge F – Lendl 7-5 3-6 7-6 7-5
    WCT Finals F - Lendl 6-2 3-6 6-3 6-3
    Sydney AKAI Gold Challenge RR – Lendl 7-5 6-2 1-6 4-6 6-1
    Barcelona Europe vs. Americas – Lendl 2-6 7-5 6-2
    Antwerp ECC F – Lendl 3-6 7-6 6-3 6-3
    Chicago Challenge of Champions RR – McEnroe 6-3 6-2
    Masters F - Lendl 6-4 6-4 6-2

    Speaking of the Lendl vs. Mac rivalry, it's funny that for all of Lendl's criticism (a lot of it deserved) for failing to deliver in big matches, he actually beat Mac in most of their biggest matches. On the other hand Mac won most of the biggest matches in his rivalries against both Borg and Connors, which is probably another reason why he remembers those rivalries more fondly than the Lendl one.

    Prime vs. prime Lendl and Mac were level 12-12 in their official matches from 1981-1985, but it was 2-1 to Lendl in slam finals, 4-2 to Lendl in slam matches, and 8-5 to Lendl in matches across the slams, Masters, WCT Finals and Davis Cup. Lendl overall also a clear winning record in their matches at Mac's home city in New York.

    Overall, having recently discovered that Mac destroyed Lendl 7-5 6-2 6-1 at the Sydney AKAI Gold Challenge in February 1984, I currently have their overall h2h at 37-26 to Lendl in tournament matches.
     
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Your are right about the Chicago/Masters counting for the former season.

    In 1981, Mac beat Lendl at the exhibitions of Barcelona (Europe vs America) and Chicago but lost at the Milan Brooklyn Masters ( another unofficial event) as well as three " official" matches at big events: Roland Garros,Davis Cup and Masters.

    I didn´t recall of that Sidney exo in 1984, but I recalled that Lendl,Mac,Borg and Gerulaitis played those exos in 1982 in Australia (Perth,Sidney and Melbourne)
     
  41. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Coming back again to Borg.He was like Robert Plant.Pure charisma.One was the Blond God of Rock and the other the Blond God of tennis.

    But he needed the interaction.

    With Connors their matches were just a heavyweight world championship clash, it was that dense
    With Mc Enroe, the total contrast between ice and fire.
     
  42. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    Borg was one of the few people who could pull off being so quiet. When he did it, he came across as cool and mysterious. When others did it, they came across as boring or aloof. He just had that x-factor and magnetism that drew people to like him, including fans, sponsors, his great rival Mac, and guys like Gerulaitis and Vilas who he beat like a drum time after time but still maintained strong friendships with him.

    One of the few times he ever criticised anyone, was when he accused Connors of not giving opponents credit after they beat him, which was why other players enjoyed beating him so much. He was 100% spot on there. Connors openly refused to acknowledgement the improvements that Borg made to his serve and backhand as Borg began to gain more of a foothold and then take charge of their rivalry. Even in his autobiography which he released last year, his overall assessment of Borg's game was laughably dismissive, basically portraying him as nothing more than a baseline backboard.

    Why Borg was a cool cat, I never liked his coach Bergelin as he was an incredibly annoying and whiny clown, and always made injury excuses every-time his pupil lost a big match without fail. He was such a bitter and sore loser. However Borg to his credit never went along with that and did give players who beat him credit and was gracious. Before Borg's defeat to Tanner at the 1979 US Open, when Bergelin moaned on and on about the night-time scheduling, lights etc, Peter Fleming who was on fire with his assessments and predictions that fortnight, correctly noted that that all he was doing was psyching out his own player.
     
  43. Gizo

    Gizo Hall of Fame

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    It's weird that while there is plenty of information available about the November 1982 AKAI Gold Challenge, there isn't much available about the February 1984 edition.

    In 1984 the line-up was Mac, Lendl, Wilander and Vilas. I don't know all of the scorelines, but here are the ones that I do know:

    February 15th:
    RR: Lendl def. Wilander 6-0 6-4 6-2
    RR: McEnroe def. Vilas 6-2 2-6 6-3 4-6 6-3 (with a bad-tempered McEnroe getting docked 2 penalty points and storming off the court during the 4th set)

    February 16th:
    RR: McEnroe def. Wilander 6-1 6-2 6-2

    February 17th:
    RR: McEnroe def. Lendl 7-5 6-2 6-1 (Mac enjoyed gloating about that victory and bringing up Lendl's 'hollow' world no. 1 ranking at the time)

    February 18th:
    Final: McEnroe def. Vilas 6-3 6-3 6-3

    So unlike the November 1982 edition which just had RR group matches, the February 1984 event also had a final following on from the group matches. It looks like Mac won 4 best of 5 set matches in consecutive days to win the title. Very impressive stuff.

    Then the next day Mac and Lendl flew to Auckland to play in a one-off exhibition match, which Lendl won 2-6 6-4 6-2 7-6. Within minutes of winning the match, Lendl was then whisked away by helicopter to the airport. What a brutal schedule those guys had.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2014
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I agree with the whole idea
    But,basically due to Bergelin and Tiriac,Borg and Vilas broke abruptly their relationship in 1977
    Therefore,Borg only trained seriously with Gerulaitis after that
     
  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    In 1983 there was also a very polemichal and extremely rich exhibition at Sun City,Southafrica with Connors straightsetting Lendl in the final
    The other two participants,of course,were Southafricans Kriek and Curren.
    I think it is due to his taking part in this event,that led to Lendl breaking down with his own government since,in the Middle of Cold War,the Eastern bloc countries broke any possible link with Apartheid SouthAfrica
     

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