Brad Baughman

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by SoCalDominates, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    thanks for a response.
    few thoughts. Disclaimer: i have minimal to no knowledge about college tennis.
    1. I have hard time believing these college players do not care. I mean it can't look or feel good when you are playing singles for major D1 team, and lose to a junior that is few years younger. Ok, these results do not count for any standings - but this is an annual event, with a concrete award (wild card) on the line. and you are also playing against fellow college players.
    2. I can see that these players are perhaps not going to light the tennis world on fire. So beating them may or may not mean anything wrt to playing pro on tour. But they do play D1. they got scholarships. why wouldn't a coach offered a scholarship to a junior that, while still being younger and a room for improvement, is already beating a player he has on a team right now?
     
  2. mikej

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    1. yeah, above (many posts ago, by now) i basically agreed that they certainly don't want to lose to these juniors - DB earned his win - they may not be fighting like heck like they would in a dual match vs a rival, but they're not going out to lose - but i do agree when tball said not much on the line for them in this event (again, i don't think the WC matters to them, they won't win matches and jumpstart an ATP career with it, they're not at that level)

    2. some of these guys have D1 scholarships, some do not certainly (harvard guys i don't believe have athletic scholarships, and some of the other guys i'm sure are not getting full money, since there are only 4.5 scholarships per team) - but yes i think DB would be in great position for some money from texas or cal if his dad were not a barrier - that's a different ballgame from the coaches at the very top that i keep listing (peter smith, boland, diaz) - these guys have their pick of the best of the best nationally and internationally, and they only need 1-2 a year - my opinion is that DB is hardly on their radar with his unimpressive or nonexistent results in tournies like orange bowl, eddie herr, the zoo, major ITFs, etc
     
  3. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

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    I see, thanks.
     
  4. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    no problem, and i don't have all the answers either obviously, just my thoughts after having a fair amount of exposure to how a highly ranked D1 team runs during my time in college

    if brian boland pops on here and tells me he's offering DB a scholarship, i'll promptly sit down and shut up
     
  5. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    I would think that their radar goes pretty deep in the field, and a kid as big a DB would be on it for future potential - even if not for present results.
    Whether college tennis is best (Isner) or going straight to the pros (Querry) would be best will be decided by his results and how quickly he grows into his body. We'll see where he is a 18 and whether he's winning junior Slam tournaments. Right now, he seems to be on track for a level below at that age because of his size. If he keeps improving into his 20's as he fills into his body (maybe at college) he might have a good shot at getting to be an ATP player. In the great mass of high-level junior players, picking out which one is going to make it would be tough, but I'd give a big advantage to the guy who is 6'5".
     
  6. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    yeah, maybe, again i could be wrong, don't know any of those three coaches personally, just know the type of prospects they generally are landing (and here, i'm talking about the top guys they are landing, aka the ones that are getting a big chunk of that 4.5 scholarships per team...not the third recruit they pull down in a given year that sits at the bottom of the lineup or on the bench without an athletic scholarship...something tells me no1coach wouldn't be interested in that kind of situation)

    and i'd give a big advantage to guys like peliwo, rubin, and kozlov that have demonstrated bigtime results consistently on the biggest stages of junior tennis...but to each his own...you could end up being right
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  7. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I have some experience in Campus Showdowns where juniors go agnst college players. At an Ivy Showdown 2 years back a junior won the title. The Ivy team had 2 blue chips, one was ITA top 100. The junior now playing mid D3 tennis. It's a weird dynamic. The match means nothing to the college guys, everything to the juniors. I understand the dynamics of Napa may be different. As the parent of a college player I can tell you that they don't always want to travel to the fall tournaments. You think the Harvard guys wanted to fly to Napa for the weekend and miss class?
     
  8. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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  9. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Guess were on the same page had my player there for to reasons work on his serve motion "little tweak" and practice hits . So overall we accomplished what we were after ,in other words my player was not giving it his all , thats to bad those D1 guys had a 16 yr old half-hearted into his matches, with his low standard and their low standard must have been some ugly tennis?
     
  10. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Thats awesome cause I told my player to use a one hander every other game which he did to make it more of a challenge so thats pretty cool those coaches had their players at a disadvantage and so did I so that must have created some serious challenges.
     
  11. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    ......................
     
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  12. TCF

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    ================================================
     
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  13. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    """banged up, traveling economy coach with screaming babies, and staying in bad motels with drunken party goers coming home at all hours....while missing home and dreaming of girls all the time with the self doubts that creep in."""

    have not been to 1 hotel that I have dealt with party goers all hrs , "Oh wait I am bone tired I wouldn't hear them sleeping like a rock!" As for the screaming babies on the flight the Dre Beat headphones have sound reduction can't hear those babies just soft music helping me to sleep on my flight , The only self doubt comes from people like you who do not believe in America , I read your type a mile away with all that Hope and Change!!

    I just thought your guarantee on how bad it is , is coming from kids that were raised getting every thing their way and even though mom and pop has handed them everything they know what it takes to make it on the tour and know that the spoiled one will have to travel coach on this experiment of learning what mom and pop already know !!
     
  14. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Happy Bday to her but TCF your post and what happens is a bit inflated.
     
  15. mikej

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    maybe, just maybe, he was talking about the things you will face on the grind of the futures circuit traveling around to a lot of crummy locations in different countries chasing points - not things you've already experienced in nice US locations like kalamazoo, NYC, napa

    otherwise it was a good response to TCF - you know, besides missing the entire point of his post because it went above your head

    then again, DB may shoot right to the top and the nice atp events and never have to deal with that lifestyle
     
  16. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    just as an example of a former NCAA champion (and former junior grand slam semifinalist and finalist) grinding it out nowadays:

    http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Br/D/Devin-Britton.aspx?t=pa

    he spent the first half of this year chasing points throughout china, canada, and mexico before starting the US futures swing

    i'm guessing some of those locations he played in you would get your beats headphones jacked

    edit - take a look at the prize money also - some tournies like Mexico F5 he wins three main draw matches and gets sent home with less than $500 - take a guess at how much he was willing to spend on nice living arrangements during that week? probably not a Hilton
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  17. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    my personal favorite from that player record, however, is the sacramento futures

    has the week of his life taking down the title while beating guys like lajola, meister, and damado..............and walks away with less than 2K before expenses......this is the kind of stuff pro athletes in other sports can't imagine
     
  18. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    I could tell you much about this player but I wont , you should hear what those that know him well say but this guy has the talent no doubt !
     
  19. mikej

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    i could tell you a handful of second-hand stories about him as well - i'm only using him as an example of the grind of the futures circuit and the locations you have to travel to in order to get points
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  20. mikej

    mikej Hall of Fame

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    one thing i will give him credit for, however, is maintaining a blog somewhat this year - check out the practice balls you had to put down a deposit for at one of the futures in mexico (picture a third of the way down the page) -

    http://devinbritton.com/blog?page=4

    not all glamorous on tour, it seems
     
  21. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    #1 I know 2 coaches who had top 10 players. It's critical to develop the right playing style. I doesn't look like you have counter puncher or grinder. The best you can hope for is massive serve, massive forehand player- like Querry or Blake. Blake had the big forehand at an early age. Good I think that you are keeping him away from the USTA where it is one style fits all. However the development needed on serve and forehand is a huge mountain at this point.
     
  22. woodrow1029

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    nevermind...
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  23. andfor

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    Hog wash. It's not this way for "all" player and may be like this if at all for a few. No different than any other fall tourney. Period.
     
  24. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Yes, guys like Peliwo have proven themselves. I was saying that in the large group of guys just below that, someone like DB might be looked at as having the potential to jump up to the top level at a later age.
     
  25. Soianka

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    Too bad. You usually have some good insights
     
  26. tball2day

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  27. Freak4tennis

    Freak4tennis Guest

    Season 4 Episode 20. The accident scene is about to go to the sky. Soon I predict a collision of epic proportions.
     
  28. andfor

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    You said "the college guys go ugh". Since you wrote it, I guess that means however many you want, one, some, all. Take your pick. I don't have to talk with one player there to you you're full of it. So you know one college player that does not want to play or thinks he's above playing a top USTA junior at a college event. It's obvious to me that a bad attitude is a good excuse for a loss for you. Nice.
    Ok you win.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  29. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Well if this is what college player talk like show a complete lack of integrity , once again something you wouldn't want family associating with , people who lack integrity probably lack a work ethic one day turn into the 99% occupy movement !
     
  30. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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  31. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Ummm dude.... I played d1 in socal. I played with Sampras as a junior. I went to a powerhouse tennis school. I had no aspirations to turn pro. Tennis was not my and most of my teams priority apart from the top guys with pro intentions.

    Sorority girls and frat parties. You can bet those college kids did not want to play a junior . No matter how good he was. Fact is we had so many tennis practice sessions and matches any extra practice matches we tanked if we had to run too much and get too tired. We had school as well lol. We managed to try to play just enough to win practice matches but sometimes you lose to guys who you should beat. Not worth grinding it out for a practice match. Especially one with no bearing on your record. Or your spot on the team.

    I'm sure your kid is awesome as he is ranked higher than I was as a kid. But then again I took Chang to 3 sets as a kid. And took a set off Pete once. But that does not mean I was pro material. I knew it. I won so infrequently against the top guys it was obvious. And when I did I knew they didn't try as hard. or lost interest.
     
  32. JLyon

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    When there is a spot up for grabs in a pro tournament, I imagine these guys will get up for it.
     
  33. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    I watched a lot of tennis this weekend at the UVa Ranked+1 fall tournament. One difference could be that this tournament will affect the updated ITA rankings when they come out in January, as there are no juniors present. This tournament might not be comparable to Napa Valley in that respect, but I believe that some of the observations below would apply to both tournaments.

    I noticed a few things:

    1. Top players were not always totally enthusiastic about playing, because it is just a fall tournament and not a dual match.

    2. However, the top players still got it together to win against the players they should beat, because they did not want to lose. Really good players just do not want to lose matches they can win.

    3. New players on good teams, where it is competitive to get a spot in the top six, are playing like this is the U.S. Open final. They want to impress the coach. UVa has five highly recruited freshmen this year, and probably no more than two of them can make the top six, so it is out of the question for one of them to not take a match seriously because "it is only a fall tournament." Teammates who are competing for starting slots are on adjacent courts winning their matches and impressing the coach.

    My conclusion is that no one should draw any conclusions from how close a score is in a loss ("A guy from my school played a close match with that highly-ranked player!"), because quite often the better player blew off a game or two, even lost serve with a really bad game, but then got it together to win. His spot in the lineup does not depend on winning 6-2, 6-2 instead of 6-4, 6-4, so he does not care about that. But I also conclude that when that freshman from your school that you are trying to evaluate does not merely have a close loss against a good player, but actually beats him, then it means something.
     
  34. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Results of pre season tournaments are used by coaches to set their line up for the regular season.

    These college players are their representing their school, the team, coaching staff, and their scholarship.

    No time to think if they want to be there or not, like ClarkC's observation no.2, these guys will do what it takes to win, cuz they just don't like to lose.
     
  35. onehandbh

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    Were these results in a age category tournament or just a practice
    match? How old were Pete & Chang when these matches took place?
    Some of my friends that were around them at that time told me Pete's
    game was already pretty monstrous at 15.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  36. andfor

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    I get it you're out there taking a poll. This is great. You're going around to fall college tennis tournaments asking these players their opinions? I look forward to you posting more about all these credible fantasys you're having. I already said you win. Hiding behind your keyboard whatever you say must be true.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  37. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    As a parent of a college player I can tell you for a fact that the top players do not want to travel to certain away fall tournaments. They have been known to fake an injury so they don't have to go.
     
  38. andfor

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    Yea. It's pretty evident there's top players sitting out with fake injuries. Athlete's Foot, Jock Itch and Dandruff are rampant.
     
  39. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Practices. I grew up in the same town as Pete. Went to same club to play. He was 12-15 years old. I played and hit with him often as a young kid. I was a few years older. He actually played on our high school team before he went pro. I also played Tracy Austin when I was a kid. But she was 5 or 6 years older.

    I played Chang and some other future pros in practices as well as matches in cali around then. I don't remember which ones. Chang I played him I think in Irvine. A real match but Chang was also younger by a few years.

    I was a good player but not pro caliber. But as a 12 year old I could beat every adult I came across pretty much around town.
     
  40. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    Like I said No Integrity ! The want the free ride to the school yet will lie to get out of doing what the school ask them to do .
     
  41. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    As a parent of a college player, I can tell you for a fact that the average college players I am aware of..................can't speak for all of them like you can for the top players.................would never do this.

    Not the way the average college players I know are brought up. Coaches of average college players that I am aware of are not dumb enough to get duped by fake injuries and don't tolerate them
     
  42. Soianka

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    Pete changed to a one-handed backhand at age 14 and was said to have gotten "beaten by everyone" for quite a while after that.
     
  43. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    All I can tell you is it happened. Been there. Saw it with my own eyes. Once you get outside the top 40 or 50 D1 programs and the top 15 D1 or D2 programs life gets in the way. These kids realize they are not going to be pros. Studies, social life sometimes take priority. Tennis not like other sports. 2 seasons in college- practice almost year round. It's a grind. For matches that "don't count" or late in a losing season these things happen.
     
  44. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    First you said it was the top college players who were "flopping" and faking injuries on their scholarship dime.

    Now you are saying "once you get outside the top 40 or 50 D1 programs" these things happen

    Which is it?
     
  45. ClarkC

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    No doubt that fall tournaments are different from dual matches in the spring. For example, if a player gets any kind of injury in a fall tournament match, he retires from the match. There is no point in risking further injury. Take a look at the fall tourney draws linked in the fall tourney thread on the college board. There are lots of retirements from matches. But, the question remains: When the match starts, and no one retires, does the score mean anything? My answer is yes. Once the match starts and no even minor injury happens to permit retirement, the players want to win, not lose, and the coaches are watching, and a couple of your teammates are fighting like heck and pulling out close wins on other courts, do you really want to tank it and then come off the court and tell your coach that you didn't care about the match?
     
  46. ClarkC

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    I think you meant to type "top 40 or 50 D1 players and the top 15 D1 or D2 programs." That makes some sense, but I would say the issue is more along the lines of competitiveness on a roster. If there is a big gap between the #1 guy on a roster and the #2 guy, then the #1 guy knows that his spot is not up for grabs just because of one fall match. But if there is no real difference between the #4 and #5 guys, and one of them is making the effort to win, then the other one had better do so as well.
     
  47. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    All college sports have practice year round. Many have a "second season" where....even though they don't compete against other schools........there is a regular-season practice regimen.

    Football--spring practice capped by the Spring Game. That is a virtual second season. Weight room and drills go year round

    Baseball--Going thru two-a-days for the past few weeks, will be continuing once per day deep into October. Weight room, indoor work and summer ball are all expected of college baseball players

    Basketball--Informal workouts in the gym now. Regular season from November to March. They all play summer ball

    Other sports are similar.

    Tennis is no more of a grind than any other college sport. If any tennis players are faking injuries because it's too much of a grind to play in a fall tourney.....that's on them and the way they were brought up.

    I have truly never heard of faking injuries in college sports other than tennis. To the contrary, in other college sports, I hear about athletes hiding injuries so they can continue to play.

    I am so disappointed to hear about fake injuries in college tennis. It is not something that our lunch-pail college tennis family has encountered
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  48. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    Never said top blue chip player faking injuries. They may or may not. The players I know who did this were not upper echelon players. I was in a D1 team's locker room before a late season match last year. Not a top team. I heard the players talking about their extensive partying the night before. Players said they were not going to be able to play their best. I was at a good D1 team's Fall Campus Showdown. They have 2 top players. They did not "appear" to want to be there. In any event they played poorly and lost to a junior, who was not a top 100 player. A 4 star eigth grader beat one of their players. The player did not tank, but he was not in the right frame of mind to compete. These are the facts. Draw your own conclusions.
     
  49. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    My inside experience is with D3 and there are strict rules about out of season practices. As you well know faking injuries is well entrenched in the junior tennis world. There are players I know that "retire due to injury" 7 or 8 matches a year. If they are tired or worn they don't want to risk their TRN ranking against a lower rank player. Others never play the backdraws because of "injury". I am surprised you find it hard to believe that same kid, now playing mid level D3 ball, finds a reason not to take an 8 hour van trip to play a fall tournament 3 states away.
     
  50. andfor

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    There is no comparison to a Fall Campus Showdown and a Fall College tournament. They play 1 set in showdowns and the coaches get to handmake those draws and results don't count. Comon...
     

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