Brad Gilbert on Medical Timeouts

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by chatt_town, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    If you are against MTOs, you should also be against this. If you can't hold it, then retire.
     
    #51
  2. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    How do you ice the opponent between sets, when there is already a break, between sets? The only thing this does is extends the existing break by a little bit...

    Not at all the same thing as taking a break between games...
     
    #52
  3. Vrad

    Vrad Semi-Pro

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    Hmmm...I would be against this if he has to take a **** between games.

    It was between sets...
     
    #53
  4. sportlerin

    sportlerin New User

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    Exactly. Because you can abuse a bathroom break too, to disturb the rhythm :roll: of the match. Did the player really have to go? I guess officials can do a 'bowl check' to make sure; if a player flushes before the check it's a point penalty.
     
    #54
  5. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Many players take bathroom breaks between sets. I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not being dishonest.
     
    #55
  6. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What is the difference between a bathroom break and an MTO? Both are disrupting the flow of the match.
     
    #56
  7. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    How is a bathroom break between sets disrupting the flow of the match? It might not even exceed the allotted time.
     
    #57
  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    What if someone takes a bathroom break after every set?
     
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  9. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Well I'm not sure. Is there a rule against that?
     
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  10. heninfan99

    heninfan99 Legend

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    I read somewhere of a guy taking a break, took a full shower and returned to play totally fresh. HAHAHAHA! That's the way to do it.
    Maybe it was league play or a Gilbert story.
     
    #60
  11. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    The break between sets is 2 minutes, Fed took little more than 3 and a half minutes between the 1st and 2nd set and before his own service game in which he got broken right away.

    There's no comparison between Azarenka and Fed's case, what's this fixation with Fed anyway? The guy is arguably one of the players on tour who engages in gamesmanship the least (he had what 3 MTOs in the last 8 years or something?), there are other things to criticize him for, this is not one of them.

    He was joking about it with Courier in an interview as he often does, very recently Fed said he has big muscles and a huge left arm in an interview with Courier, are you gonna take those at face value as well?

    The difference being that he took the bathroom break between sets and before his own service game in which he got broken after he returned.

    Whose reactions? Those of historians and Nards of this forum? You people would probably cry gamesmanship if Fed sneezed on court or something.

    Yeah, Fed's bladder, which cost him the opening game in the 2nd set.

    Right.


    Edit: my mistake, Fed didn't lose his opening service game even though Kolja had 2 BPs, he broke him to love in Fed's 2nd service game of the match and took the lead 3-1 (he consolidated the break).
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
    #61
  12. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    If something is disrupting your flow you might exceed the allotted time....

    imo MTOs are a neccessity and difficulty in breathing would certainly qualify. Much money and fan interest is involved; no one wants to see one go down early with a blister, ankle, asthma attack etc. if it can be easily avoided.

    ETOs (emotional time outs) can be more tricky to monitor. Whether difficulty in breathing was physical or emotional, seems to me Vika and all involved played by the rules. Looking forward to the final.
     
    #62
  13. Bhagi Katbamna

    Bhagi Katbamna Hall of Fame

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    I thoght Federer admitted that he went to the bathroom to delay so that the conditions improved for him(that is, it got cooler).
     
    #63
  14. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Once again, he was joking in an interview with Courier like he almost always does.

    The conditions aren't gonna magically improve in 2 minutes (and it was even less than that) time.
     
    #64
  15. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    tramp? what she do, break your xbox?

    I sense anger in you...
     
    #65
  16. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    Didn't brad gilbert make a lot of money selling a book about such strategies?
    Strange that a guy who autored a book called "winning ugly" complains about such a strategy:).
     
    #66
  17. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    There's dead time between each set anyway. Players takes bathroom, changes his shirt, shoes, etc. If a player is not busy, he has to sit and wait for awhile anyway, until the umpire calls "time". Who cares if its going to be sunny, rain, or snow. Blame on mother nature.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
    #67
  18. Sardines

    Sardines Rookie

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    The problem for Vika is that her story grew more complicated as she had more time to think about it:

    On court interview: "...choke of the century..."

    If she left it at that, one could give her the benefit of doubt since she just won the much, it was hot and she wasn't listening properly.
    The only problem is the 2nd interview inside the hallway with ESPN's Tom Rinaldi, after she left the court:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ldpEmOoIsL4#!

    In that interview, she made no mention of her "stuck rib" but talked about her breathing problem and chest pains.

    Only in the interview room did her story, where there was enough time to talk to her agent and publicist on what to say. By then, her story was solid and even Craig Tiley said the doctor backed her up so it's all within the rules.
    Is a panic attack and its symptoms a medical condition that needs to be dealt with? Yes! Is it a condition that warrants a medical time-out on court? Not in the spirit of the rule of MTOs. The rule change should be that doctor has to access whether it's a panic attack or not, which is impossible in 90 seconds.
    In truth, she could've lost that set and still win. Stephens was clearly not in the same league. So Vika broke the spirit of the game of tennis, in failing to win honorably. However, she was definitely the better player, so I doubt she'd have lost anyways. She just marred her victory.
     
    #68
  19. librarysteg

    librarysteg Hall of Fame

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    #69
  20. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    Whether nor not her MTO was valid doesn't alter my opinion that her behavior was unbecoming the #1 player in the world. I hope she's fined. But that won't bring back Sloane's chance of winning the match.
     
    #70
  21. mariecon

    mariecon Hall of Fame

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    #71
  22. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    Won the battle and lost the war. I doubt she'll get back public support after this given her already fraught image with all that grunting. The Aussies are a very knowledgeable and fair tennis crowd. Li Na will get all the crowd support.

     
    #72
  23. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Completely agree. What she did was completely within the rules, but was also quite obviously gamemanship.

    Same goes for that horrible screeching. Funny how she could barely breathe, but still had enough lungpower to wail like a wounded banshee. Pure gamesmanship.

    There is no denying that she is a very good player, but I will always be rooting for her opponent. Especially in this case where Li is so likeable both in terms of her game and her personality.
     
    #73
  24. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    ^^ High five to that. I will be rooting for Li Na to dump the screecher like stale fish into the trash heap.
     
    #74
  25. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I just don't know how many times it has to be said. THIS IS NOT A WTA TOUR EVENT. LOL

    Ok so first of all, let's get clear that the WTA rulebook doesn't apply, but assuming it did, ONCE AGAIN, a player can have 2 medical timeouts in one changeover, which makes the part that starts with "at the conclusion..." irrelevant.

    The WTA Rulebook (which again, it's an ITF tournament) also says (different than what the stupid article says):

    a. Medical Conditions
    A medical condition is a medical illness or a musculoskeletal injury
    that warrants medical evaluation and/or medical treatment by the
    PHCP in conjunction with the Tournament Physcian, if appropriate,
    during the warm-up or the match.
    i. Treatable Medical Conditions
    (a) Acute Medical Condition
    The sudden development of a medical illness or musculoskeletal
    injury during the warm-up or the match that
    requires immediate medical attention.
    (b) Non-Acute Medical Condition​
    A medical illness or musculoskeletal injury that develops
    or is aggravated during the warm-up or the match and
    requires medical attention at the change of ends or set
    break.

    So, it does not limit it to musculoskeletal or associated injury. Secondly, if it was a rib problem and a knee problem, which was diagnosed apparently by the trainer, that is a musculoskeletal injury. Also, if it was a rib problem causing shortness of breath, that could be considered musculoskeletal, but could also certainly be considered a medical illness.

    As for this out of the WTA Rulebook (oh yeah, it's an ITF tournament, have I mentioned that? LOL) This has to be one of the most unenforceable rules in there. How do you prove it. If the trainer diagnoses an injury and treats it, it has already been cleared as not an abuse of the medical rule.


    Now, from the ITF Grand Slam Rulebook (Guess what, this is a Grand Slam Tournament, guess which book applies? Even though the people that write these articles are clueless and will never understand this.)

    c.
    Medical Time-Out
    A Medical Time-Out is allowed by the Referee in consultation with
    the Grand Slam Supervisor or Chair Umpire when the
    Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer has evaluated the player and has
    determined that additional time for medical treatment is required. The
    Medical Time-Out takes place during a change over or set break,
    unless the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer determines that the player
    has developed an acute medical condition that requires immediate
    medical treatment.
    The Medical Time-Out begins when the Physiotherapist/Athletic
    Trainer is ready to start treatment. At the discretion of the
    Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer, treatment during a Medical Time-Out
    may take place off-court, and may proceed in conjunction with the
    Tournament Doctor. *

    The Medical Time-Out is limited to three (3) minutes of treatment.

    Continued on the next post, because it's too long:
     
    #75
  26. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    A player is allowed one (1) Medical Time-Out for each distinct
    treatable medical condition. All clinical manifestations of heat illness
    shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical condition. All
    treatable musculoskeletal injuries that manifest as part of a kinetic
    chain continuum shall be considered as one (1) treatable medical
    condition.



    Muscle Cramping:
    A player may receive treatment for muscle
    cramping only during the time allotted for change of ends and/or set
    breaks. Players may not receive a Medical Time-Out for muscle
    cramping.
    In cases where there is doubt about whether the player suffers from an
    acute medical condition, non-acute medical condition inclusive of
    muscle cramping, or non-treatable medical condition, the decision of
    the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer, in conjunction with the
    Tournament Doctor, if appropriate, is final. If the
    Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer believes that the player has heat
    illness, and if muscle cramping is one of the manifestations of heat
    illness, then the muscle cramping may only be treated as part of the
    recommended treatment by the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer for the
    heat illness condition.
    Note:
    A player who has stopped play by claiming an acute medical
    condition, but is determined by the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer
    and/or Tournament Doctor to have muscle cramping, shall be ordered
    by the Chair Umpire to resume play immediately.
    If the player cannot continue playing due to severe muscle cramping,
    as determined by the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer and/or
    Tournament Doctor, he/she may forfeit the point(s)/game(s) needed to
    get to a change of ends or set-break in order to receive treatment.
    There may be a total of two (2) full change of ends treatments for
    muscle cramping in a match, not necessarily consecutive.
    If it is determined by the Chair Umpire or Referee in consultation with
    the Grand Slam Supervisor that gamesmanship was involved, then a
    Code Violation for Unsportsmanlike Conduct could be issued.


    A total of two (2) consecutive Medical Time-Outs may be allowed by
    the Referee in consultation with the Grand Slam Supervisor or Chair
    Umpire for the special circumstance in which the
    Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer determines that the player has
    developed at least two (2) distinct acute and treatable medical
    conditions. This may include: a medical illness in conjunction with a
    musculoskeletal injury; two or more acute and distinct musculoskeletal
    injuries. In such cases, the Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer will
    perform a medical evaluation for the two or more treatable medical
    conditions during a single evaluation, and may then determine that two

    consecutive Medical Time-Outs are required.

     
    #76
  27. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    People need to stop worrying about fines, and penalties and stuff.

    As has been said, it is obviously gamesmanship, and BS, and whatever you want to call it. But as the rules are written, there was no clear violation.
     
    #77
  28. librarysteg

    librarysteg Hall of Fame

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    Someone should point out to the author of the article that none of that matters since it's not governed by WTA rules :) Do you agree or disagree with their speculation that this particular incident would be similar to the Clijsters bad call they say lead to Hawkeye and might lead to changes regarding MTOs?
     
    #78
  29. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    I don't think that call led to Hawkeye (if it did, it was like by 1%). The Serena/Capriati was the one that pushed Hawkeye to get into service.

    There have been a lot of suspect MTO's. The problem is you have to maintain fairness to the players, as well as making it so they can stay as safe as possible. I wouldn't be holding my breath for a change anytime in the foreseeable future. But, I think it could be tweaked somehow.
     
    #79
  30. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    As much as I hate what Azarenka did, I'm against this knee-jerk mentality of legislating everything. What happens if a player is truly injured and the ump refuses treatment with some bad fallout? We will find ourselves wanting to go back and forth based on sensational occurrences.

    Instead, let the court of public opinion rule on this. The negative press, lack of crowd support and finally, the effect on sponsorship dollars will teach her the lesson no rule will.
     
    #80
  31. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Why not keep a portable potty next to the court? With a mirror and some basic feminine necessities and make-up. Men can do what they usually do there, and women can do that, plus quickly adjust any piece of dress, etc.
     
    #81
  32. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    If vica wins all will be forgiven. Nobody expected sloan to make it to the finals seriously people. Sloan lost just about all her service games.
     
    #82
  33. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    Yea, the negative press, lack of crowd support and no endorsement dollars really taught Barry Bonds a lesson to.
     
    #83
  34. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Zagor, Federer was just joking, right..It worked to his advantage in that match. Come on now..The "historians" were discussing..NO..I'm talking about the commentators at the time (PMcEnroe and/or Brad Gilbert especially). You're missing the point, it's gamesmanship but that's part of the game. I think a partial reason for the timing of that break was that he hoped to cool off Davydenko who was clearly playing quite well. He was definitely in a groove through that first set. I agree that Federer is very fair but don't think he doesn't do things on and off the court to give himself every mental edge possible (ex. comments before he faces a rival at a major, etc..) Yet, Davydenko should have dealt with that break better. Same with Sloan Stephens. You can't let something like that disrupt your level of play. You just have to go with it and not let any interruption like that impact how you're playing. Easier said than done, but it's just one of the things that makes tennis a very difficult sport.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
    #84
  35. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    To me, the big takeaway is:

    WTA gets headlines for all the wrong reasons: gamesmanship, shrieking, who's dating who.

    ATP gets almost all of it's publicity for great matches - Djokovic v Stan.
     
    #85
  36. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Actually he did, anyone who knows the history of Fed's interviews with Courier is well aware of that.

    No, you come on, it didn't work to his advantage at all.

    Right when he came back, Davydenko has 2 BPs and broke Fed in his next service game, took the lead 3-1 and had BPs to go 4-1, don't presume to lecture me on the match I doubt you even watched.

    Oh those two geniuses, I'm convinced now, really I am.

    No, you're missing the point, taking less than 2 minutes of your opponent's time before your own serve is not comparable to taking 10 minute MTO before your opponent's serve.

    One is very likely not gamesmanship, the other one obviously is.

    He was definitely in the groove after the bathroom break as well, he raced to a 3-1 lead and had several BP chances to go 4-1.

    Oh I will think he doesn't do things on court to give himself every mental edge possible because I followed the guy since 2001 and the vast majority of time he just shuts up and plays tennis, doesn't take forever to serve, doesn't communicate with his coach during the match, doesn't stall his opponent on return of serve etc.

    Off court is a different matter, he can be sore loser, give arrogant statements, even play some mind games (trying to put extra pressure on the opponent), that's not where my disagreement lies.

    BTW. I didn't say Fed is very fair, I said he's one of the players who engages in gamesmanship the least.

    For Pete's sake, did you even watch the match? Kolja dealt excellently with the break, he continued where he left off, he had several chances to go double break on Fed 20+ minutes after that bathroom break.

    No, not nearly the same situation or reaction.
     
    #86
  37. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Considering Azarenka's scary retirements due to heat/concussion at the USO & AO a few years back, I don't think it would be wise for any umpire or trainer not to take her seriously if she says she can't breathe.

    Its so easy for fans & commentators to criticize after the fact(& criticize something they have absolutely no say in) but its best to err on the side of the player(esp this player, maybe she's just a good actress, but again those USO & AO incidents - not that long ago - were pretty disturbing & I wouldn't want to see that again, part of me thought I was about to when she left the court last night, and the commentators hinted at it. only after the match did it become all about what a 'disgrace' she was. maybe if it went 3 maybe we could have had another heat stroke incident & the story would be poor Azarenka, look at how frail she is)
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
    #87
  38. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Zagor you and I disagree as to Federer and Davydenko and that situation. You can keep trying to separate out my sentences, but put it this way, I think there was some gamesmanship with Federer and that bathroom break and you do not. We have different opinions, but don't expect me to agree with you. I certainly don't expect you to change your opinion either, so we'll agree to disagree on this. Davydenko faltered and Federer deserved to win the match, there's no question about that. Also as to "joking around"..well jokes have a tendency to be grounded in some truth as well.
     
    #88
  39. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Really, borg number one?

    You will at least admit that Davydenko didn't suffer any ill effects from Fed's "gamesmanship," right? Seeing that he came out in the second set on fire, just like in the first set.

    I guess that deep into the set he remembered Fed's bathroom break and just couldn't handle it? :lol:
     
    #89
  40. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm not trying to separate your sentences specifically, that's the way I usually respond to anyone whether I agree with them or not (I like to address several different points).

    There are disagreements and there are facts, fact is:

    -Davydenko didn't falter after that bathroom break, the match continued in the same fashion until he faltered (or Fed raised his game, or the combination of the two) some 20+ minutes after it.

    -Taking a bathroom break/MTO before your opponent's serve is much more frowned upon than taking a break before your own service game.

    -Fed's break was less than 2 minutes (added extra to 2 minutes of break between sets), Azarenka's was 10 minutes.

    Regarding jokes having a tendency to be grounded in truth, some of them are, some of them aren't, Fed-Courier interviews are usually drenched with sarcastic humour that have nothing to do with reality (Fed's huge left arm, him being young at the age of 31, him not doing any training in off-court season etc.)

    You can of course disagree with me and claim it's gamesmanship but you being so fixated on Fed in a thread about gamesmanship (more or less) is very telling given his general on-court behaviour in that regard, if he's the first one that comes to your mind when this topic comes up then so be it.
     
    #90
  41. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    NDQ, it was a combination of Federer playing better and basically resetting and also giving Davydenko something to think about. Just because he may have won the very next game does not mean that there was no effect on the flow of the match. Davydenko's form fell of just a bit and Federer started playing better. Overall though, it was more of a case of Davydenko just not maintaining his form than the bathroom break impacting him, but I have no doubt that Federer was engaging in some gamesmanship, especially since it was at a time when the sun may have been bothering Federer just a bit and Davydenko was playing red hot through the first set. Too much of a coincidence in my estimation. Zagor, Federer engages in gamesmanship and so does Djokovic, and Nadal, and Murray, and Sharapova, and Williams, and the list goes on and on. I thought of Federer because it happened at the AO as well and I remember that match well. Many claim that Federer never engages in gamesmanship and that is just not reality. He does it too, but in different ways than say Murray, Nadal, and Djokovic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
    #91
  42. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Don't you get it? Fed's less than 2 minutes bathroom break affected Davydenko 20 minutes later.

    Right at the moment Kolja had the break chance to go 4-1 up he suddenly thought to himself "****, that sneaky Fed took a bathroom break to screw with my mind!" and missed.
     
    #92
  43. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I apologize in advance for separating your sentences.

    Regarding on-court gamesmanship he's nowhere near those players you just mentioned.

    You have a strange definition of remembering the match "well" given your claim that Davydenko faltered after the bathroom break and that bathroom break visibly/noticeably affected the flow of the match.

    Also let's be honest, that's not the reason your brought up Fed in this topic.

    Reality is, those players engage in on court gamesmanship far more than Fed to the point where it's not even a contest.
     
    #93
  44. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Zagor, on court gamesmanship, I would agree, Federer does not do that too much, although I think he did during that instance during the Davydenko match. Off the court, he does it perhaps more than other players, through interviews especially (he gets interviewed a lot and he is quite candid and astute, but he uses a "bully pulpit" so to speak). Federer is not immune to utilizing gamesmanship. You can argue that it's not nearly as bad as some of the things Djokovic and Nadal (even Murray), but Federer does it too, that's my basic point and to think otherwise is just not accurate. Having said all of that, I consider Federer, Nadal, Murray, and Djokovic to all exhibit very admirable sportsmanship overall and of course, they are all great players.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
    #94
  45. tennis_badger

    tennis_badger Rookie

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    joker did it just last year at US open. this thing creates a lot of talk but give it a few weeks ppl forget
     
    #95
  46. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I wasn't arguing about Fed's statements off court, I have no problem with people considering him to be most arrogant (even trash talking) of the 4 but as I said regarding on-court gamesmanship, he's nearly spotless (which doesn't mean he shows great sportsmanship, that's a different thing), some people clinging to his 2 minute bathroom break he took before his own serve in Davydenko match certainly doesn't change my opinion in that regard.

    Also, I don't consider any of the top 4 to exhibit admirable sportsmanship except Novak at times (like when he overrules the calls in opponent's favour for example) but he also engages in gamesmanship at some other times.
     
    #96
  47. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Interesting Zagor. By the way, I'm not trying to change your opinion on the Davydenko situation. Again, I don't think the bathroom break was that big of a deal, but I do think it involved a degree of on court gamesmanship by Federer. I happen to think it was subtle gamesmanship, but some gamesmanship nonetheless. As for Djokovic, I agree that at times he does some things that are pretty admirable, such as giving credit to his opponent even after a great point in the heat of battle. As to Federer, thoughts on Wimbledon 2008 and the darkness question? How about questioning hawkeye repeatedly on Centre Court? Again, very subtle, but he has ways of trying to change the flow of a match and also disrupt his opponent just enough and we all know how matches can turn even with small shifts.
     
    #97
  48. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

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    Way to go equating doping with gamesmanship. That's going a little overboard I think. There are valid situations in which players can take an MTO. There are no valid situations for doping.
     
    #98
  49. Racquet Daddy

    Racquet Daddy Rookie

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    Haha...that would give KIA something else to put their name on.
     
    #99
  50. Milan

    Milan Rookie

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    1 injury timeout for 3 minutes to be used on your own serve or during break. end of story.
     

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