Brad Gilbert--shouldn't use poly

Discussion in 'Strings' started by Steve Huff, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. maxpotapov

    maxpotapov Hall of Fame

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    No, we're presuming that target audience for poly marketing campaigns plays the string until it breaks.
     
    #51
  2. fgs

    fgs Hall of Fame

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    basically brad gilbert is right if you look at what happens on the tennis courts. lots of people with inadequate stroking technique are using poly, worse even, are told to use poly for the completely wrong reason - durability.

    the durability of poly was and is a good feature in a very relative sense - topspin-hitters do get some 10 hitting hours out of them as opposed to less than two-three hours with multi, syngut or even natty gut.

    now, some people get high on the idea to have a string that does not break a whole year long and in spite of inadequate technique chose to string up some poly. these are indeed prone to injury and discomfort but interestingly they don't relate it to the string they use, most probably also at an inadequate tension.

    the impact forces of a flat hitter are pretty different than those of decent topspin hitter, which brushes up on the ball, so, with adequate technique the inherent stiffness of the string and stringed are not such a big factor in the equation. beware: extreme grips don't necessarily also translate into lots of spin, it is the swing path of the stick that imparts spin on the ball. i have seen a lot of young kids with extreme grips hitting an "incredibly" flat ball, while my rather mild eastern grip on the forehand but rather steep upwards motion imparts a lot more rpms on the ball than those kids with their "apparent" modern game.

    so, to conclude, yes, the vast majority of tennis players should not use poly, simply because they use them for the absolutely wrong reasons.
     
    #52
  3. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    Hi Steve,

    Some of the stuff that comes out the mouths of these guys is really interesting to be sure. You can't just talk "in general" about polys. If a young 3.5 with fast hands, strokes and an improving modern game is using poly to create some nice margin for error using the spin and control that poly offers... Then Brad is indeed in error. If on the other hand... a 3.0/3/5 older player with traditional strokes that hit mainly flat... Brad is correct.

    BTW... what is a Kid??? someone 8 years old or a 15-16 year old hard hitting junior with modern strokes? Some of the polys offered today or softer than some the syn guts on the market.

    Sometimes I just listen and think.. what the heck are these bozos "experts" talking about now??.

    Thank god for Darren Cahill... one of the only folks who really understands the game and equipment. I would take some of the Talk Tennis members advice on equipment over this group. It like they never did any research and testing at all.
     
    #53
  4. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, Brad Gilbert is a television entertainer who trades on his past to garner credibility about what he says about tennis today.

    His opinions are not necessarily well-informed and are probably just the usual ex cathedra pronouncements that television experts are prone to utter.

    A few weeks ago we had a bit of a political upheavel with scores of supposed experts telling us what would happen.

    And, yes, it was precisely the opposite that happened.

    What a surprise!
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
    #54
  5. maxpotapov

    maxpotapov Hall of Fame

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    Try to think whom they are commentating to. Smart guys like you and Darren Cahill, doing research and testing, are like top 1% of the TV audience watching tennis.

    ...Sorry if I offended you. Top 0,01%.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
    #55
  6. barry

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    If poly was not terrible for your joints, why would manufacturers develop co-poly. And co-poly last about as long as synthetic Gut. The average person wants poly and it wants it to be softer than generation 1 poly string, but it defeats the purpose of using poly to start with.

    I think poly has run its course, and many players are starting to feel the effects. I played 2 years with generation 1 poly 4 times a week, and developed shoulder and wrist problems. Switched to a soft multifilament, problem solved in a month. Now back to synthetic gut and no issues.

    For juniors, Brad Gilbert is right, forget poly learn to play with more forgiving string. Todays frames are stiff enough without adding stiff string.
     
    #56
  7. DaveInBradenton

    DaveInBradenton Rookie

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    Only those of us with elbow and shoulder issues..........

    Best wishes,
    Nobody Dave
     
    #57
  8. Cfidave

    Cfidave Professional

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    The lack of knowledge in general, by any of these commentators, when in comes to players racquets and strings is pathetic. Cliff, PMac, and some of the other clowns don't have a clue about even the most basic facts. Brad has some basic knowledge, but is lacking details, or is just mis-informed.

    Cliff asks Brad about Serena's string change, Brad says she went from gut to poly. All he needed to do was check stringing logs to see that she uses a gut/poly hybrid, ala Federer. Shortly after he warns young people about the hazards of using poly, he talks about how you " can hit the ball as hard as you want, and it won't go out" . That bit of total BS will surely discourage all those youngsters from trying poly. If he truly owns a stringing shop he needs to spend more time in it, and he may even find out that not all polys are branded Luxilon.
     
    #58
  9. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The odd thing about television commentary is that commentators don't know much and from an entertainment point of view all they really need to know is 'the way a match unfolds strategically and tactically' -

    But not the technical aspects of the equipment.

    As if to enhacnce their expertise, however, they feel a need to say things that allude to a deeper technical knowledge that current players don't even have let alone former ones.

    Brad Gilbert is the one who nearly destroyed Andy Murray's wrist so his attempt to save young poly players is very gallant of him.
     
    #59
  10. mrmike

    mrmike Rookie

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    There are a lot of followers out there that just copy what the pros use in the hope that it will make them play like one. As we've all discovered, that does not work. Brad is probably correct in that a more neutral string such as syngut should be used early on by juniors. Play test different strings and find what works best for you. Djoker used to play X1 (multi), Tommy Haas uses full gut, Roger uses a hybrid, Nadal uses full poly. I am sure there are pros out there using syngut. They all work!
     
    #60
  11. Boricua

    Boricua Hall of Fame

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    What string setup do you recommend for baseliner that hits with topspin? Also, would a soft copoly main like Weiis Cannon Turbo Twist with a soft cross string like Babolat Nvy strung at 50 lbs be a solution for people who like coplys but dont want arm problems?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
    #61
  12. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    what was the connection between brad gilbert and andy murray's wrist? i know he had an injury several years ago.
     
    #62
  13. tlm

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    Here below is just one of many articles that shows that you know little about strength training. That is why I can use a full poly at high tensions without arm problems at the age of 57. I have been lifting weights for years and have strong muscle, tendons and ligaments which prevents injury. I will agree that the stiffer strings do put more stress on your joints and all of us would probably be better off not using them, but if the player does strength training and changes the string often the bad effects are minimal.


    Although, resistance training exercises are usually considered to build strong muscles, however, muscles are not the only part of your body that benefit from the strength training. These magnificent exercises can strengthen your bones and ligaments and are also very effective for strengthening your tendons. When the ligaments and tendons are well developed along with strong muscles, there would be an overall reduced risk of injuries including avulsion, tendon tear and even fracture. Resistance training exercises also help improve tendons that may have symptoms of tendinosis.

    As we all know that muscular strength and endurance increase with resistance training, but one thing that most of us don't know that the tendon strength only increases as your muscle increases. Therefore, tendon strengthening routines are associated with resistance training workouts as well. An important thing to keep in your mind is that the overall volume of workouts, intensity of training and load bearing are the determining factors in increasing the strength of your tendons. Moreover, heavy weights are more effective at strengthening your tendons and ligaments than light weights. It is important to remember that tendons grow slowly and develop gradually. Therefore, you need to stick to a high training routine and must proceed gradually so that your tendons adapt well in response to training.

    Now, the question arises that how the tendons and ligaments strength increase with the gym exercises. Well, resistance training and endurance training exercises can cause tissues' injury and damage or they can stress the cells that produce collagen. Because of this stress, there would be an increase in the production of collagen after the exercise, which eventually will lead to an increased tendons and ligaments strength over time. To repair the injured tissues after the strength training exercises, your body will release molecules that will help tissues repair and re-grow. Moreover, recent researches have revealed that our hormone levels also increase in response to resistance training exercises. Testosterone is a growth hormone that is produced by our bodies in response to the exercises and it directly affects the recovery of tendons, ligaments and muscles after the strength training workouts.

    A perfect technique to strengthen your tendons and ligaments while developing your muscles at the same time is to lower the weight slowly in order to put maximum stress on your connective tissues. If we talk about the bench press, then make sure that you slowly lower the weight to your chest. In order to get maximum benefits of strength training exercises, it is a good idea to perform workouts in the supervision of a qualified professional gym trainer. He not only will design a right combination of exercises that will target your ligaments, tendons and muscles at the same time, but will also guide you on how to perform theses exercises with perfection.



    Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/5218331
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
    #63
  14. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    Tommy Hass is now using full poly...
     
    #64
  15. jazar

    jazar Professional

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    Wrong. Tommy Haas uses VS gut mains and RPM Blast crosses.
     
    #65
  16. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I know people who use full syn gut and can generate plenty of spin. It's all about the technique. They have very good technique and can generate lots of spin using any racquet with any string.
     
    #66
  17. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Tendons don't receive much blood flow and they get more brittle as you age. Lifting weights every day is not going to change that. Even football players who strength train constantly and have built tons of muscle still get tendon injuries all the time. You make it sound as if strength training prevents people from getting old. Is there any evidence that strength training makes people live longer? I don't think so. Your hair is still going to turn gray and you're still going to get prostate cancer regardless of how many weights you lift.
     
    #67
  18. The Meat

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    Yeah, Connective muscles are the slowest muscles to repair itself. Shin splints, rotator cuff tears, any tears in the knee, etc. All take months to recover from and a lot of rehab as well. Strength training can only help so much, Conditioning is what you need to do as a tennis player. Prevents most major injuries if done correctly.
     
    #68
  19. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    what pros use full poly anymore? it was a fad for most people.

    conditioning helps, but after 30 your body starts to die quickly... believe me. even at federer age you realise that your joints have a limited lifespan and poly/stiff sticks are not worth it.
     
    #69
  20. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    whatever... he is using poly...not full gut. looks like we was using full poly on sat
     
    #70
  21. Buford T Justice

    Buford T Justice Semi-Pro

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    Grrrrrrrrr.

    An unfortunate truth!
     
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  22. Buford T Justice

    Buford T Justice Semi-Pro

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    Yes...this s well known in baseball. No matter how strong pitchers try and keep their pitching arms (as in muscles being strong), with age velocity invariably drops as the connective tissues lose elasticity. That's where all the energy is stored right before release.

    There are only so many times you can stretch the rubber band.........
     
    #72
  23. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    natural gut in the mains means that the string bed isn't so stiff, since natural gut is nice and buttery on the arm... which is the point of the thread.
     
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  24. フェデラー

    フェデラー Hall of Fame

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    While this is true, the poly can still wreck your arm. I didn't know about the dangers of poly prior to starting to use it but then I started having odd arm pain and eventually it got so bad I had to stop playing for a small period of time. Granted, I had left the poly in the racket for a ridiculously long time because I had stopped playing tennis for a few months then came back playing with the same string job. Eventually the poly broke before the gut. After that I've been a lot more careful, and I've been stringing at much lower tensions.
     
    #74
  25. ultradr

    ultradr Hall of Fame

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    If you want to use poly, just make sure to restring it as frequently as you can
    afford.
     
    #75
  26. Muppet

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    Why shouldn't Brad Gilbert use poly? Isn't he supposed to be good?
     
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  27. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Because his strokes are old school and not modern "Nadal-like".
     
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  28. Muppet

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    Ahh, I see. Does Roger use half poly because his strokes are half like Gilbert/half like Nadal?
     
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  29. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    If people have had problems with the poly they've used with their racquet and string of choice then I've no problem with them eschewing it.

    But to make blanket generalisations and recommendations on this basis is sheer prejudice on a par with the whole old school mantra.
     
    #79
  30. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well thats funny because I posted just one of many articles that say weight training does make your tendons stronger. Did you not read it or just ignored it because it proves your prior post saying that training only strengthens muscle wrong?

    Now you are going to actually compare football tendon injuries to tennis elbow?
    That is hilarious, the football tendon injuries are from violent collisions. Not quite the same as hitting a tennis ball.
     
    #80
  31. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Completely incorrect, conditioning helps you with the stamina needed to complete a match. Strength training is what prevents the major injuries.
     
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  32. magnut

    magnut Hall of Fame

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    LOL. All you young teenagers keep useing full poly and dont listen to these old guys that have spent years hitting millions of balls on the tennis court and getting every injury imaginable. They are just old and dont know anything. Young adults these days know everything because its on the net. Actual experience and hard work isnt really necessary anymore. Listen to the marketers and give them your money as they know there stuff.

    If you do use poly and end up getting cronic tennis elbow dont worry. You can just quit tennis. No big deal.
     
    #82
  33. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Hitting a tennis ball is one of the violent acts you can subject your arm to.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w

    Look at the impact, pronation of the forearm and wrist, twisting, turning, etc. Imagine subjecting your elbow tendon to those forces millions of times over a couple of years. Football players are not hit millions of times during an entire career. Not even close. It's the repetitive violent impacts on your arm in tennis that causes your tendon to eventually tear. Just like it's the repetitive hitting of a tennis ball on your strings that eventually causes them to break.

    And, no, there's nothing you can do to make your tendons "younger" and less brittle as you age. Just like there's nothing you can do to extend your life beyond 150 years.
     
    #83
  34. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Federer has played longer and more matches on tour than anyone without any major injures. I don't think he strength trains very much. Just look at his skinny arms and legs and weak looking chest and abdomen. He hardly has bulging muscles anywhere like Nadal does. Yet, it seems like Nadal is injured all the time and he's even younger and has played way fewer matches than Federer has.
     
    #84
  35. The Meat

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    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-10799599
    http://www.examiner.com/article/proper-conditioning-prevents-injuries-sports

    There are many other articles as well that show that Conditioning helps decrease imbalances in muscles and increase in blood flow which helps muscles to recover faster. Strength training is also important, but conditioning is a necessity in injury prevention.
     
    #85
  36. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well of coarse everyone would agree that the violent collision with that vicious tennis ball is much more dangerous than having 2 guys over 250 lbs smash into you at the same time. The more you talk the more you prove you have no clue.
     
    #86
  37. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    The topic was about wether club players should be using poly string, which has nothing to do with your God fed. But you need to change the topic to try and make your illogical argument work.

    Lets stay on the subject of amateur players who do not have perfect timing like the pro players do and keep playing long after their 30's. Believe it or not there are many people that weight train for injury prevention that do not have bulging muscles.
     
    #87
  38. TheRed

    TheRed Professional

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    Any elite athlete does strength training. Tennis players in general do high repetition, lower weight strength training that don't result in bulk. Nadal is no football player. He is thicker and more muscular looking because that's his body type but he's not huge at all. One's injury issues is more than just an issue of strength training issue. It's not hard to see that Nadal plays a more demanding style that's likely harder on the joints.

    Did you see Haas take his shirt off during that Djokovic match? He's buffer than Nadal.
     
    #88
  39. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    My personal experience is in complete line with what you've said throughout this thread. I suffered two injuries to the same leg, one to my Achilles and one to the calf. Since I couldn't play tennis, I started going to the gym, 1 hour a day. I ride the stationary bike 30 minutes and then lift weights, upper body, for 30 minutes on Cybex machines.

    I tend also to agree that through proper stretching of tendons, which was the rehab for my Achilles, while they may never be as elastic as when I was 19, they are certainly elastic enough. As an aside, the PT who helped me through the rehab measured both my ankles for mobility. He said that I had more range of movement than any high school athlete he'd worked with and I'm 54. I asked him what I did to have that and he replied activity and a little help from God.

    The strength training, I'm doing pretty much what TLM said, as much weight as I can do 10 reps on each machine as slow as I can. I've noticed the difference.
     
    #89
  40. sovertennis

    sovertennis Semi-Pro

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    I was watching the match when Brad made this comment. He is correct (Cliff is not): 3.0-3.5 players do not, in general, swing fast enough, or possess the proper technique, to gain an advantage via poly. What they do get is a string job that will last them for years and years, long after the poly has turned to piano wire, because they'll never break it.
     
    #90
  41. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    In general, Brad is right...
     
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  42. Relinquis

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    got it... bench presses cure ankle injuries.
     
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  43. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I have been lifting weights for 15 plus years and while weightlifting can be extremely beneficial, it is not exactly going to protect your joints. In fact in can contribute to overuse if you play a lot of tennis too.

    I dont bench press at all anymore. Instead I do pushups. Just easier on the body. I lift a lot lighter than I used to as well. Squats are great, deadlifts are awesome (don't go too big ), and core strengthening exercises are always good.
     
    #93
  44. maverick1981

    maverick1981 New User

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    i was away from the game for a long time. Away long enough where all my pro staffs were strung with kevlar in '02 in college.

    still watched tennis but after putting the racquets down paid no attention to new gear, at all. bought some new frames, strung them up with NXT, broke them during 2 sets of tennis at 55lbs.

    Had no idea what poly was. After doing research, strung them up with full beds of Lux ALU 16L @55 thereafter.

    I think poly would be completely OK for higher-level high school players and higher. I do not think they are suitable for less developed (both strokes and physically) for younger kids, or those still in the beginner - intermed phase of the game.

    You need a body to withstand their playability and stiffness. Although some polys are not 'that stiff', compared to non-poly's , they still retain stiffness not found elsewhere. You also need an understanding of the sport, wherein technique will impact poly's benefits or detriments.

    The better view is that HOW could a 3.0er hit with a poly? Its like putting a P90 in a beginners hands.

    The ISSUE should be the player's informed decision between their pro, coach, team, stringer etc. Thats what it comes down to. The player needs to know how their choice impacts not only their particular game, but also their body. Every player is different, that should be reflected in string choice.
     
    #94
  45. RetroSpin

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    If you are disagreeing with Brad Gilbert on a tennis-related issue, you should probably go back and rethink your position.

    In general, 3.0/3.5 players are doing themselves a disservice using poly. They don't have the technique to benefit from it and probably won't be able to tell when it goes dead. Syn gut is actually better for them, as it offers more power and feel. By definition, this level player cannot generate much spin, so what is the point of poly?
     
    #95
  46. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    A small violent collision over and over for millions of times can be just as bad as a larger violent collision once. You just don't notice the injury as quickly with the smaller collisions. Do you understand the concept of fatigue?

    And it's "of course", not "of coarse".
     
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  47. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    There are also many more people who get injured FROM weight training.
     
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  48. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Exactly! And Haas has had more injuries during his career than just about any other player. I guess all that strength training didn't help Haas to prevent injuries. And he plays the same style as Federer.

    When I used to weight train, I got tennis elbow from playing tennis twice. After I stopped weight training several years ago, I never got a hint of tennis elbow ever again. I don't think there's any evidence that weight training makes your tendons younger and more flexible. You can't turn back the clock no matter what you do.
     
    #98
  49. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well thats great glad you have found the magic of resistance training to help you get through your injuries. Sure nice to hear from someone that has actually used weight training and experienced the great results it can provide.

    Sure a lot better than the naysayers that have never trained properly or are just to lazy to commit to a exercise program. I hope more people will listen to you and try it themselves.

    I play tennis at least 5 days a week and use poly strung at pretty high tensions with a grinding top spin game. Using a western grip and a lot of brushing the ball which is a very physical way to play the game, but I have to use what works best for my limited tennis skills.

    I picked the game up later in life and found the first year I really committed to learning the game that I was practicing all the time and I cut back on my weight training. But I soon found out that I was getting injured to often and as soon as I went back to training my injuries went away and I have been able to keep them to a minimum.
     
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  50. RetroSpin

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    If you go to any competent orthopedic doctor for TE, they will send you for physical therapy, a large part of which will be devoted to strengthening the muscles in your forearm.

    If you read Andre Agassi's autobiography, he credits his trainer Gil Reyes with a good bit of his success. Agassi was on a hard core strength training program. All the tennis academies emphasize strength training as well, both for injury prevention and to play better.
     

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