Brad Gilbert--shouldn't use poly

Discussion in 'Strings' started by Steve Huff, Mar 30, 2013.

  1. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Please quit spreading bad information, if you got tennis elbow then it was from something you were doing incorrect. You sure change your story a lot because I remember you posting in the past that you got TE from using wilson K-gut string. I guess you change the story to fit your latest argument.

    Nobody said you can turn the clock back but you sure as hell can delay it. Its funny so many of the guys at my club ask me how can I play so often but rarely if ever am i injured. These guys are in their 40's so i am 10 years older than most of them, but yet they are always fighting injuries.

    Most have office jobs so they get little if any exercise at work then they come out and play tennis a couple of times a week at a pretty high level but do no other training and they can't figure out why they keep getting injured.

    I just tell them that they are an accident waiting to happen and if they don't start doing some strength training and exercise outside of their tennis then they will just keep getting more injuries more often.

    Its just the way it is and if you are not smart enough to understand that and obviously have not researched the huge amount of information out there that proves this beyond any doubt then you are just missing out, but don't spread your bad information to prevent others from missing out on years of injury free tennis as they age.
     
  2. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Anyone with a brain knows that fed plays a much more efficient and aggressive game than rafa plays and ends his points and matches a lot quicker than rafa does.

    Plus rafa had a foot problem when he started that has ended up causing him knee problems. I was in the first row a few years ago and saw rafa close up he does not have bulging muscles everywhere, he has good definition and a little bicep. But that is it he is built skinny just like the rest of the pro players.
     
  3. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well sure glad to hear from someone with common sense, I would really think by now this would be common knowledge but it obviously is not.
     
  4. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    You know as well as I do that there is a huge difference in power lifting and going really heavy for strength and size which can definitely be bad for your joints as compared to moderate weight training with more focus on form and slow repetitions as opposed to how much weight is being used.

    I do the same thing as you i prefer pushups over bench presses, or if i do bench i use dumbells. I prefer to do more training now at preventing injuries from tennis so I do a complete forearm workout and shoulder work to prevent problems.

    I also agree that squats and deadlifts are excellent choices for a tennis player and core movements, but like you said do not try going to heavy.
     
  5. Sander001

    Sander001 Hall of Fame

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    So if you want to use full poly without injury, quit strength training. Gotcha.
     
  6. ultradr

    ultradr Hall of Fame

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    In my case, 80% of injuries stem from some imperfections in what I'm born with.

    I was told i have very efficient game, smooth movements and so on.
    I am also pretty light ~150 lbs and 5'10".

    I have sorta flat foot, my arch is very low on my left ankle. I always have
    problem with my left ankle, never right ankle. I never had knee problems in
    20 years of pounding on hard courts.

    People say Federer has no injury because of his efficient game. I think he is
    born with great body structure and thus has less problem. He also grinds
    lots of baseline rally in today's tour conditions. In fact, he has chronic back problem
    since the beginning of his career (at least from 2003 AFAIK).


    People also think Nadal has more problems because of grinding style? I think
    80% of it is the structure of his ankle and knee. Is it mainly from lots of baseline grinding?
    Who doesn't grind long baseline rallies these days? In fact, Nadal has lots of
    easy points due to his lefty game. AFAIK, he had ankle and knee problem
    from 18 !
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  7. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Well, no wonder. Try hitting the ball flat with an Eastern grip for 40 years driving through the ball hundreds of millions of times using poly strung at a high tension with a one-handed backhand and see what happens to your tendons regardless of how much weight training you do.
     
  8. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Strengthening your muscles does nothing to make your tendons any younger nor make them more elastic and heal faster. The stress is on your tendons, not on your muscles. That's why even strong guys with big arm muscles are debilitated by tennis elbow.

    Yet, Agassi was hampered by wrist and back injuries throughout his career.
     
  9. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Really?


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I did get tennis elbow from using K-Gut Pro string. I was also weight training at the time. After that last bout of TE, I stopped weight training and never had a hint of TE since.

    And other than the few bouts of TE, I've never had any other sorts of injuries. Most guys that are younger than me are injured all the time - e.g., shoulder, wrist, back, calf, arm, ankle, knee, etc. but I never get injured and I'm older and I never weight train.
     
  11. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    No, you should quit using full poly period if you want to prevent injury regardless if you strength train or not.
     
  12. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Ya breakpoint has some great advise doesn't he.
     
  13. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I will agree that body type and what you are born with play a role but who knows how much. Also yes everyone pretty much plays a more of a grinding game today, but some more than others. Rafa does play more grinding than most though, especially how much he runs around his backhand. I don't agree that he gets lots of free points, because he has one of the weakest serves of most of the top players.
     
  14. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Really so which one was it then? Because all you blamed it on before was the k-gut. You have to be the only person I have ever heard of that got TE from weight lifting.

    You say that most guys that are younger than you are injured all the time. So what is your age and what do you consider older?
     
  15. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Ya just like I said well defined but still very thin.
     
  16. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    100% agree with this

    a lot of folks who pontificate about how poly strings are stiff will kill your arm blah blah blah tried Big Banger at 70lbs once ten years ago...

    the world has moved on, the strings are softer and people understand they should be strung way looser..
     
  17. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I do use a one handed slice a lot which can also be hard on the elbow. The guys that use the eastern grips and pinch the ball off the court do not take as big a swing as the top spin players. By brushing the ball violently it takes a lot more out of you than meeting it more solid and going through the ball.
     
  18. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Please read again. I didn't blame getting TE from weight lifting. Getting TE has nothing to do with whether or not you lift weights. That was my point! I got TE from playing tennis even though I was also weight lifting. I also haven't gotten TE from playing tennis when I don't lift weights any more. Thus, weight lifting is not going to affect whether or not you get TE - it's not going to prevent it nor cause it (unless I guess if you do some violent move during lifting that tears your tendon) TE comes from hitting tennis balls with stiff (and light) racquets and/or strings.

    I'm not much younger than you are.
     
  19. tvizz

    tvizz New User

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    I'm curious how poly/arm friendless translate into rackets with less strings such as the 99s.

    I mean, stiffer strings, but less pulls=?
     
  20. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Are you serious? Nadal looks like The Incredible Hulk! He is not "thin"! He's got bulging muscles on top of his bulging muscles!

    By comparison, THIS is "thin":

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  21. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Um...no. If you actually drive one-handed backhands flat or with topspin, you would know. I can slice all day long with stiff strings and never feel it in my elbow - it's a completely stress free stroke on the arm/shoulder/wrist.

    And, no again. Meeting the ball solid and driving through the ball flat is what puts the MOST stress on your elbow tendon. You are taking on the FULL impact of the ball and trying to reverse its full momentum in the opposite direction so there is a tremendous amount of impact normal force on the racquet head which is transmitted to your elbow in the form of torque. Brushing up on the ball does not put nearly the same amount of stress on your elbow tendon. It's the difference between a head-on collision and a glancing side swipe.
     
  22. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    My friend who was coming off TE said that he could not hit a backhand slice because he would instantly feel it in the elbow. I do agree that a 1 handed backhand can be one of the hardest shots on the elbow though.

    Maybe brushing up the back of the ball is not as hard on the arm but I was referring to the amount of work and energy used not the amount of stress on the arm.
     
  23. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Weight lifting can definitely affect wether you get TE or not, it can without a doubt greatly decrease your chances of getting TE. Especially if you do a complete forearm workout at least twice a week.
     
  24. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    If you have TE, you will feel it in your elbow just by picking up a cup or washing your hair or turning a door knob, let alone hitting a tennis ball using any stroke. Hitting a slice is significantly less stressful to your arm than crushing the ball flat.

    But we're talking about using poly in this thread, which affects your arm, elbow, wrist, shoulder, etc., aren't we? Using poly is not going to affect your legs nor abs any more than if you hit the ball the same way as with other strings.
     
  25. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    He was pretty much recovered from TE but said he could still feel it some when slicing.

    The original topic was about rec players using poly, but the discussion turned more towards wether strength training can help prevent tennis injuries.
     
  26. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    I just want to point out y'all are talking bout "stiff poly strung at high tensions"

    no offence, but wtf would anyone still use "stiff poly" when there are plenty of newer strings that aren't stiff at all?

    and "high tensions"????? Why??????

    ask drak what the pros string this stuff at...
     
  27. ultradr

    ultradr Hall of Fame

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    Nadal does chase lots of balls but I think he gets surprisingly many
    easy points (not free) with his lefty games.

    And Nadal is sneaky good server. I consider his serve is one of reasons why
    he is one of top players.

    I think Federer's and Nadal's serves are two with most accurate placement
    on tour. Nadal's control on clutch moment is the best on tour, IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  28. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    They maybe 2 of the most accurate placement servers but fed gets a whole lot more free points off his serve than nadal does by a big margin. To me rafas serve is the least of reasons that he is one of the top players.
     
  29. ultradr

    ultradr Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, that's where we differ. I agree Federer gets lots of easy points. No
    question about it. He has the best serve on tour of last decade or so, IMHO.

    I don't look at the pace of 1st serve when I judge the quality of serves.
    I consider Nadal's serve as the 2nd best among current top 10 only behind Federer's
    and that is one of the reasons why he has been successful in this generations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
  30. fortun8son

    fortun8son Hall of Fame

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    I think some of you guys are missing the point.
    Most 3.5 and under players do not have a competent string advisor, nor are they even aware of TT and all the advice (good and bad) that is available here.
    They walk into a Dick's or Sports Authority, see the packs of RPM or Adrenaline that are marketed as "Durable", walk up to the cashier and leave their OS Hyper Hammers to be strung at the same 62 lbs that they have always done with PSGD.
    Nobody tells them anything about proper tension or poly death.
    Eight months later they wonder why their arms hurt.
     
  31. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I don't think most here are missing the point.

    The problem is that people are generalising from the simple case you state correctly to wage a diatribe against all poly use.
     
  32. fortun8son

    fortun8son Hall of Fame

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    I said some, not most.
    No generalization is true. Not even this one. :)
     
  33. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, well, I think nearly everyone has conceded the point you make, but Breakpoint and his followers are waging a war on all poly use using the example (among others) you cite.
     
  34. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Then what does he feel when he crushes a flat one-handed backhand? If he normally uses a 2HBH, that would explain why he felt something when he tried hitting with only one hand.
     
  35. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    it's a fair point, friend of mine who is a decent 4.5 has Big Banger in his Prince 03 Blues.

    I asked what he and them strung at and he told me 68lbs...

    the man obviously has tendons of Kevlar, but he had never heard anyone say anything about maybe, you know, not stringing poly as tight as the NXT he always used to use...
     
  36. RetroSpin

    RetroSpin Hall of Fame

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    You raise an interesting point about tendons. I'll concede that muscles, tendons and ligaments all lose elasticity with age, just like poly. Strengthening the associated muscles wouldn't seem to have an effect on connective tissue like tendons, and you could even argue that the stronger you are, the more stress you can put on that tissue by, eg , hitting harder.

    That said, the standard treatment for TE is strengthening the forearm muscles. I'm no physio, but I think the concept is that if your arm is stronger, you don't have to grip the racquet as tightly and you can absorb stress better.

    With joints like the shoulder or knee, the concept is that stronger muscles stabilize the joint and mititgate unusual stresses on the ligaments. Same with the core.

    You also have to distinguish between overuse syndrome and traumatic injuries. Much TE is from overuse and poor form. I will agree that all the weight training in the world is not going to help you if you have a biomechanical flaw, say flat feet or arthritis in your knee, and you overdo it.

    Agassi suffered a lot of joint issues, but he credits his training regime with extending his career and even allowing him to compete. Gil Reyes works with a number of top players today.
     
  37. maverick1981

    maverick1981 New User

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    its all about the informed decision. As in any sport, there is different equipment for different levels, all of which impact the playe/athlete's game & ability.
     
  38. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Again this is just one of many articles that shows what I am talking about.


    Although, resistance training exercises are usually considered to build strong muscles, however, muscles are not the only part of your body that benefit from the strength training. These magnificent exercises can strengthen your bones and ligaments and are also very effective for strengthening your tendons. When the ligaments and tendons are well developed along with strong muscles, there would be an overall reduced risk of injuries including avulsion, tendon tear and even fracture. Resistance training exercises also help improve tendons that may have symptoms of tendinosis.

    As we all know that muscular strength and endurance increase with resistance training, but one thing that most of us don't know that the tendon strength only increases as your muscle increases. Therefore, tendon strengthening routines are associated with resistance training workouts as well. An important thing to keep in your mind is that the overall volume of workouts, intensity of training and load bearing are the determining factors in increasing the strength of your tendons. Moreover, heavy weights are more effective at strengthening your tendons and ligaments than light weights. It is important to remember that tendons grow slowly and develop gradually. Therefore, you need to stick to a high training routine and must proceed gradually so that your tendons adapt well in response to training.

    Now, the question arises that how the tendons and ligaments strength increase with the gym exercises. Well, resistance training and endurance training exercises can cause tissues' injury and damage or they can stress the cells that produce collagen. Because of this stress, there would be an increase in the production of collagen after the exercise, which eventually will lead to an increased tendons and ligaments strength over time. To repair the injured tissues after the strength training exercises, your body will release molecules that will help tissues repair and re-grow. Moreover, recent researches have revealed that our hormone levels also increase in response to resistance training exercises. Testosterone is a growth hormone that is produced by our bodies in response to the exercises and it directly affects the recovery of tendons, ligaments and muscles after the strength training workouts.

    A perfect technique to strengthen your tendons and ligaments while developing your muscles at the same time is to lower the weight slowly in order to put maximum stress on your connective tissues. If we talk about the bench press, then make sure that you slowly lower the weight to your chest. In order to get maximum benefits of strength training exercises, it is a good idea to perform workouts in the supervision of a qualified professional gym trainer. He not only will design a right combination of exercises that will target your ligaments, tendons and muscles at the same time, but will also guide you on how to perform theses exercises with perfection.



    Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/5218331
     
  39. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Just because some guy wrote an article about it and posted it on the Internet does not make it true.

    Putting maximum stress on your tendons and ligaments will just cause them to tear (especially as they become more brittle with age). Just like putting maximum stress on your muscles will cause your muscle fibers to tear. The difference is that muscles receive plenty of blood flow which allows the muscle fibers to heal quickly. You do know that's how you build muscles, right? Weight lifting (or other exercises that stress your muscles) cause your muscle fibers to tear and when they heal they grow back bigger. That doesn't happen with tendons because tendons hardly get any blood flow, so they don't grow back bigger, and you just end up with scar tissue. And if you tear your tendons, you are in big trouble because it hurts like heck and it can take many months or years or never for them to heal, unlike muscles which only take a few days to heal.
     
  40. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Well obviously your tendons don't get much blood flow because you spend more time typing than working out. I just got done with a great workout, squats, calf raises, full forearm workout, then elevated pushups with some trx pushups.

    On to tricep curls with some trx tricep presses and I feel like a million dollars. Nothing can match the great feeling of a good workout let alone the great affects it has on my muscle tone, tendon and ligament strength. Plus the obvious benefits to my overall health and injury prevention.

    I really feel sorry for people like you that are not smart enough to realize what you are missing out on, and how much longer it will enable you to play tennis at a high level even as you age. Oh well it is your loss not mine.
     
  41. Buford T Justice

    Buford T Justice Semi-Pro

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    If resistance training helped retain ligament and tendon elasticity, then 40 year old major league baseball pitchers would throw the same velocity as they did when they were 25, but none of them do.

    That is Not to say that resistance training is not of benefit as tlm is stating (lots of obvious benefits to it) only that empirical evidence shows that connective tissues always seem to lose elasticity with age, and with that loss of elasticity necessarily comes reduced ability to transmit power (when throwing a ball, hitting a serve, etc). But, I think elasticity and strength of a connective tissue perhaps are two different things.......
     
  42. goosala

    goosala Hall of Fame

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    If you are a hard hitter and have the means to restring often then polys are a good choice. However, doing a hybrid works well too and lasts longer as far as tension and is easier on your arm. I still use syn gut because I like high tensions, $3 price, and great soft feel from Forten Sweet 17.
     
  43. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Well good for you. Sounds like you gave your muscles quite a workout. Unfortunately, however, it did nothing to make your tendons more elastic and more resistant to micro-tears, like what happens with the prolonged repetitive stress that comes with hitting flat one-handed backhands very hard for decades.

    If strength training was such a panacea for the effects of aging then Agassi would still be playing on the ATP Tour at the relatively "young" age of only 42, since he still strength trains every day. But he doesn't because his old tendons do not give him the flexibility to run around on a tennis court all day and to hit millions of tennis balls the same way he used to be able to when his tendons were younger.
     
  44. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Wrong again agassi had a hereditary back problem, the only reason he played as good as he did for so long was because of his training. Lets try to stay focused here, I am referring to us rec players playing the game into old age. Comparing a touring pro staying in the game forever is absurd.
     
  45. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    You make some good points and nobody is claiming that we are not all going to feel the affects of aging. But believe me you can definitely delay it so you can stay in the game.
     
  46. Big_Dangerous

    Big_Dangerous Legend

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    Yeah he loves to name drop Luxilon all the time, as if they're the only poly string manufacturers...
     
  47. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    You probably just have good genes to be a lifelong tennis player.
     
  48. Miami Tiburon

    Miami Tiburon Semi-Pro

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    I thought the same cool of Brad to just move on after what Cliff said .
    Brad is 100 % right . I think Brad also mentioned very young players shouldn't use them either .
     
  49. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I probably am a little lucky to have good genes, but I have been weight training for 35 years and I know that it has helped immensely.
     
  50. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Brad Gilbert is not an expert on strings.

    Experts on strings claim that the main property they possess is stiffness.

    A lot of polys are no more stiff than nylons, but if softness for kids is an issue then gut is advisable.

    There are nylons softer than polys, but a low tensioned poly is not an issue for most.
     

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