Bumped up with no explanation from USTA

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by 10smama, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. 10smama

    10smama New User

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    Haven't played USTA league since the 90's and last year played 3.5 senior league. My record was 4-2, 65-45 and 2013 TLS rating was 3.27. I got bumped to 4.0, tried to appeal ....reply was simple no. Any ideas as to how this is justified and what I can do? Thank you so much for your help!
     
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  2. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    You go and join the 4.0 team, or 4.0 tournaments. Have fun. NO appeal. 4-2 is too good for 3.5. you are breaking up hopes and dreams of 3.5 players by being too good
     
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  3. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    The simple answer is that your rating was above 3.5 and either you went to playoffs and as a result had a B (benchmark) rating so can't appeal, or were far enough above 3.5 that you weren't in range to appeal. Did you try to do the auto-appeal through TennisLink?

    Why might your rating have gotten above 3.5 with a record of just 4-2? I'd need to know who you are and look at your matches to say for sure (see below), but ratings are not based on win/loss record but are instead based on the ratings of the players involved in a match and the score of the match. As a new player that presumably had to self-rate, there are scenarios where you can easily get a high initial rating and get bumped up from just a few matches and I can show you all that in detail in the reports I generate.

    As far TLS goes, I and others have found their ratings to give an ok ballpark idea of where a player is, and generally give a decent idea of relative ratings between players, but are sometimes quite inaccurate on bump ups/downs, and yours would seem to be another case of that if the 3.27 is what they had you at at year end.

    I generate estimated dynamic NTRP ratings and have found my ratings to be quite a bit more accurate. See my blog for more information or this example Estimated Dynamic NTRP Rating Report to see the type of information I can provide. Even if you aren't interested in getting a report, I'd still like to hear from you so I can see if my ratings agree with you being bumped up. Contact me directly and I won't share your identity with anyone or this forum.
     
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  4. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    WOW. awesome. had no idea that this calculator existed. Question. How can a guy that is kicking butt at 4.0 and also winning at 4.5 still be 4.0. This dude I know is Clearly 4.5 and computer only has him at 4.0.

    he blew away guys at 4.0 level in 2 matches and he also won playing #2 spot at 4.5 division. and he won 4 matches so far fairly easy. 2 matches at 4.0 and 2 matches at 4.5.
    and he will continue to kick butt and destroy guys at 4.0. How long would it take this guy to get bumped to 4.5 ? If it is end of this year, then I don't think it is fair for the 4.0 guys in local leagues
     
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  5. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Unless a player is self-rated, bumps only occur at year-end (or early start ratings in areas that use them). It sounds like your player isn't self-rated, so if he is a 4.0C he'll be that all year until year-end/early start ratings come out.

    But, just winning at match at your level or above may not mean what you think. He could have been playing a 3.5 play up in the 4.0 matches, or a 4.0 playing up in the 4.5 matches, so the wins could be as expected for a 4.0. One has to look at the specifics of the rating(s) of who is played (and played with for doubles) to determine dynamic ratings which is what my reports do.
     
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  6. 10smama

    10smama New User

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    Thanks so much Schmke (your blog was very informative!) Thanks for the encouragement Nostradamus......just wish the USTA would at least give a reason, not just a NO, appeal denied.
     
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  7. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    His rating is S which is self rate. but he started playing last October 2013. He won every match with ease even in 4.5 division. He only Lost 1 match at #1 doubles at 4.5 division. and even that went 3 sets, only lost cause other team kind of got lucky with 7 point tiebreaker for the 3rd set. they did this because they were gonna run out of time.. lol

    So What is going on here ??????
     
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  8. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    I'm not sure what reason you are looking for. If you are a B rated player, that is the reason. If not, your rating is too far into the range for a 4.0 for an appeal to be granted.. I talk about the ranges in this blog entry. Those are the reasons so there isn't much else for the USTA to tell you.
     
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  9. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The appeals are automatic by the computer. There is no one there to give you an explanation. You just say you want to appeal and if you're in the range, it's granted, and if you're not, it's not. You'll never get an explanation from the computer.
     
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  10. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    How do you know your exact rating? I thought they just showed 3.5...4.0 and 4.5..etc

     
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  11. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    You will get better answers here than the USTA. They don't want you to know the reasons. They want you confused...otherwise you will know how to game the system. That is what I was told a long time ago when I first started when ask about how they generate strikes and why we aren't told when we get the first two. lol This was from a USTA official. I still don't agree with the strike rule or the bench mark stuff. What the basic philosophy seems to be is if one is bench mark...you can't beat them if you are not and if you do...you get a strike. So the match is decided as far as usta is concerned before you ever hit the court.

     
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  12. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    I don't believe this is true. Why do you think it is?

    A benchmark could very well be in the lower part of the range for a level so it doesn't make sense that beating that player would result in a strike. And I haven't seen any indication of special treatment for beating a B rated player in all the analysis I have done.

    How might a benchmark be in the lower part of the range you ask? Being a B just means you played in the post season. Players that advance to the post-season may very well be in the top part of the range for their level, after all their team did well so they probably did too, but this isn't necessarily true. Further and more important, a very good 3.5 say goes to the playoffs and get bumped up to 4.0. They are now a 4.0B, but could very well be as low as 3.51. A self-rated 4.0 beating this player 6-4,6-4 certainly isn't going to result in a strike.
     
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  13. floydcouncil

    floydcouncil Semi-Pro

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    Nicely put^^^

    To the OP, just go and play tennis at the new level you've obtained. If you win some, then great. If you lose some, then learn from those matches so you'll improve.

    What's fun in beating lower level players and not learning anything from those matches? I'd rather play against better players and see a different level of ball striking.

    If you simply want a cardio workout, then join a gym.
     
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  14. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    It's her TLS rating, so it's not official.
     
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  15. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Okay...let me explain it exactly the way it was explained to me one time by a USTA official. We had a player that was a self rated player. Once we won state, he was on Monday morning dq'ed and so all of his matches were overturned at state. Our captain at the time sent this to us. I personally sent an email to someone that was an official at the time. I asked her why was he dq'ed. She said because he had gotten three strikes. I asked her how does a player get strikes. She said a self rated player gets strikes anytime they beat a bench mark player. So then I asked her so if this is three strikes you are out..then why was he not notified of the first two strikes. She said because if we told you that you would start managing scores(at that time I didn't understand what she meant as the whole damn team was new to the sport). I do understand this part now. My problem was as I explained to her was so the match was determined before they hit the court. She said it wasn't. I said how not so if you are going to make the assumption that the bench mark player can't be beaten by a self rated player.

    Then I asked her well how does a player get to be bench mark. She said players that play in the state tourney...and that is where I really had a problem. Anyone could be on a team that played at the state, but that should not automatically make you bench mark. In our case, our player beat the same guy twice locally that was bench mark. So by the time we got to state, he got dq'ed his first match, but we didn't know it until Monday morning. The other problem I have is they let us keep playing him on Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday and they knew Friday he was dq'ed. That is a *****ty way of doing things. Thank God we had won all our matches 4-1 and 5-0 or we would have been in a world of $**t. So we told them to go to hell on the sectionals. There was no way we were going to drop 250 bucks for an entry fee and not know how many of us had strikes before we went to SC. They wanted us to send them 250 bucks to reserve a spot but wouldn't tell us who had strikes and how many. That is crazy as hell. You don't have to believe it but that is exactly how it went down. That of course was 2003 but much of that nonsense still holds true today. A self rated player beats a bench mark player. You get a strike. 3 and you're out.

    The other thing is this. If you sit out say 3 years and then come back...you have to self rate back at what you were when you left and on top of that you get a self rating...which is bs. If they are going to give you a self rate, why subject you to the 3 strike rule again?


     
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  16. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    TLS rating? Still where does one go to see this rating?

     
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  17. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    So, this is from 10 years ago. They very well could have automatically given strikes for beating B rated players then. I believe things have changed since then and if it was true then, it is no longer true that beating a B rated player is an automatic strike.
     
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  18. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    http://www.tennisleaguestats.com/

    This is someone trying to replicate USTA ratings. They are not actually associated with the USTA and do not have the exact formula. You have to take them with a huge grain of salt. There are plenty that are way off. There are threads on here discussing TLS in detail if you need more info.
     
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  19. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I agree. The information that beating a B rated player is a strike is either outdated or just wrong. You can get strikes against any player with a DNTRP or any match can not be a strike depending on how the computer rates it.
     
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  20. Sakkijarvi

    Sakkijarvi Semi-Pro

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    Get your GP to write a doc's note, bump down.
     
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  21. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    The only reason I believe it is still in effect is too many captains are watching for Bench mark players too much. Something is up with this. The way I understand it is you can be dqued from strikes or your rating as a self rated player just goes through the roof, but having said that, it's still unfair to make people self rate and subject them to the same rule if you aren't going to allow them to self rate lower.



     
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  22. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    This is absolutely 100% untrue. You need to get it out of your head. There is nothing different about a B rating than any other rating in computing strikes. A lot of B rated players actually got the B from playing in playoffs at the next level down the previous year and then were bumped. These players will (usually) have a relatively LOW DNTRP in the level and it will be harder to get strikes against them.
     
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  23. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    JRB is absolutely correct. The "B" rating means absolutely nothing other than the player has been to the state level or beyond and is not allowed to appeal for 1 year. They can be anywhere in the level from the absolute bottom to the absolute top.
     
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  24. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    Interesting...in my area a player went undefeated at 9.0 and 10.0 mixed, won all 4 of his matches of 5.0 doubles, gets early start 5.5 and is now 4.5. Crazy! He wasn't a 5.5 really, but certainly not a 4.5 either.
     
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  25. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    MS or Eastern? There were some strange things that happened between ES and YE ratings in MS this year.
     
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  26. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Okay....I'm listening and trust me...I'm not argueing with either of you. It's a learning situation for me. It may not be true now but it surely was at one time.

    I guess my question is this. If this B rating is not used for anything...why do I need to know some guy was at the state playoffs last year? In other words, what is the use of the rating? Especially since it could be a player all the way at the bottom of 4.0. In short, how can you all be sure it's not used for dq'ing players that are S rated? From what you all are saying...I only see a need for S rated and C rated players. I could care less if someone went to state last year if it's just for information purposes only. Also, when did it change because I was clearly told that this was used for this at one time. Does this make sense?




     
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  27. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    So let me get this right...If I just got bumped to say 4.5 and all my buddies are real good so I end up on their team and go to state...but again...I'm getting pounded when I play...but yet another 4.5 that is kick@$$ but his team isn't worth a damn...probably higher rating can appeal...but I can't appeal with a low rating...now how much sense does that make...not from you but from the usta that is assuming I have this right.


     
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  28. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The guy with the higher C rating can appeal, but the appeal will just be denied if he is really rated that high. If you both have ratings within the band where the appeal is granted (i.e. just barely above the lower level), then the C will be granted and the B denied, but that isn't what you're describing where one player is better. I don't really have an explanation why the USTA would grant one appeal and not another for two people with the same rating (maybe just because they don't want people who were bumped after playing in postseason to move right back down to dominate and go to postseason again...).

    You also have to actually play in the postseason to get a B, not just be on a team that goes. Therefore, if you're a weaker player on a strong team, there's a chance that you don't even get in the lineup at states.
     
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  29. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    I think the rationale for not allowing Bs to appeal is several fold.

    First, like J_R_B says, perhaps the USTA doesn't like the idea of players going to the post-season and getting bumped up and then getting to play at the lower level again. But I think the real reason is the next two.

    Second, and related to #1 and probably the bigger reason is that the USTA considers players who go to playoffs and get measured against players from other areas/districts/sections to have a more accurate rating due to this. If their rating is more accurate, then what is the reason to allow an appeal?

    Remember, the reason appeals are even available to some is that they've played fewer matches (we have tiers of matches played and thresholds for appeals now, see this) and it is a concession by the USTA that a player's rating may be slightly inaccurate because of fewer matches played. If a B's rating is considered more accurate already, then there is no reason to allow an appeal.

    Third, players that go to playoffs are used as part of the benchmark calculations (thus the 'B' rating) to try to normalize all the levels across sections. It would mess with the integrity of the system if players that were a benchmark others were measured against were allowed to have their rating change.
     
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  30. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Okay...that's a better comparison. So me at a 4.5 b rating(as I went to state) and another player with a 4.5 c rating because he didn't will cause me to get screwed...and you know just as well as I that there will be a reason for pretty much everyone to play. Aren't but two teams going to the finals...the other teams are mathematically eliminated and thus do find playing time for pretty much everyone. that's a serious flaw if what you are saying is true.


     
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  31. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Appeals are granted because the USTA is effectively admitting that players with fewer than some number of matches matches that don't get measured against (play against) players from other areas/districts in the playoffs may have a rating that is slightly inaccurate.

    You went to state, your rating is more accurate as you played teams from other areas so you aren't allowed to appeal.

    Additionally, because you went to playoffs you became a measuring stick to adjust other player's year-end ratings and it would mess the system up if your rating were allowed to change.
     
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  32. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    Okay...I can except at least part of this...the part about me playing more people across the state as opposed to playing the same say 4 4.5 players in my city for 5 straight weeks.


     
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  33. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    Middle States I think. These borders are hard to follow.
     
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  34. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    LOL, I know what you mean. 4.5 is going to be a mess this year in NJ. The EB 18+ and Cherry Hill 40+ teams from MS both went to nationals plus the Eastern NJ region team you played on, plus I have my team moving up from 4.0. There are almost 50 "nationals" 4.5s that played in MS NJD last year and maybe 8 teams that can take them in groups of three between both 18s and 40s (plus my team that can only take my own players but no outside nationals players). There will be a lot of guys on the outside looking in even if they want to play.

    Add in the 2 3.5 nationals teams plus a smattering of guys who made it in mixed and there are almost 100 "nationals" players in NJD between 3.5 and 4.5 (or 40 & Over 5.0). The new draconian move up / split up rules are going to cause many players not to have a team to play for at their level this year. This district just isn't big enough to split all those guys into threes and absorb them on different teams.
     
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  35. kevrol

    kevrol Rookie

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    Not true. My team in 2012 won our district and qualified for States. We did not have enough people to go and therefore did not go. For 2013 I was a 'B' player. For 2014 I'm back to 'C'.
     
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  36. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    I may try and cobble a team together this year but man that rule makes it so hard to find competition.
     
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  37. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Soemthing strange happened there. The guys on my team that did not play in the postseason last year are C rated this year. That's the way it's always been.
     
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  38. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    Aren't "benchmarked" players used by USTA to "normalize" NTRP across the country? I thought that was the purpose and nothing more...
     
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  39. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    I believe that is an accurate statement, but the USTA has also decided that a B rated player's rating is accurate enough because of their play against other areas/districts/sections and the associated benchmark calculations that there is no "margin of error" to justify allowing appeals.
     
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  40. NumbersGuy

    NumbersGuy Rookie

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    Looks like your YE13B situation is covered by the Glossary entry in the USTA rules, which was modified in 2013. Italicized part is what was added, bold italicized part is what bit you. "Played one or matches" clearly refers to the regular season.

    Benchmark Rated Player: A player by whom other players’ NTRP computer
    ratings are calculated. This includes any player who participates in an 18 &
    Over or 40 & Over Adult Division match at the local playoffs, participates in
    championship play, or who is dynamically disqualified. Additionally, on
    teams in the 18 & Over and 40 & Over Adult Division that qualify for a
    championship event and/or are on the schedule at a championship but the
    team does not participate and the team is not replaced by another team, all
    rostered players who played one or more matches become Benchmark
    players.
     
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  41. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    Nice pick up.

    I'm curious about the reason the USTA would do this. Making a player a B that didn't play in playoffs at all doesn't help the benchmark calculations. So it almost seems to be a punishment of sorts on a team for backing out, especially if it is done too late for another team to replace them. Perhaps they think teams were not going to championships to avoid getting Bs so they could still appeal and this is their way to close that loophole. I can't imagine that many teams were using it though.

    Note that kevrol doesn't say exactly how they won their district to advance to state. If there was an area or local playoff involved in doing so, that alone would be enough to attach a B to the players that played too.
     
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  42. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Long long time ago, in a far away place, tennis players actually tried to UP their rankings, tried to play at the highest levels possiible.
    But that was the ancient past, I guess.
     
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  43. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    LOL. Nothing against you since you're just talking hypothtically (and people really do dumb things all the time), but I can't imagine a whole team sandbagging to make the playoffs then skipping the playoffs so they can appeal and sandbag again the next year. Isn't getting to the playoffs the point of the sandbagging in the first place?
     
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  44. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I personally have not managed my rating at all and would welcome a bump if it happens. I have had a winning record every year I've played USTA (except the one I had tennis elbow), I have played up, played in playoffs, put up bagels and breadsticks when I can. I played in 3 district playoffs, 2 sectionals, and nationals all the way to the finals last year. I won all 6 matches at sectionals, won three more at districts (including one 6-0 6-2), and won two matches at nationals. The computer refuses to rate me up. I'm like 4.0 Typhoid Mary, though, because everyone who beats me gets rated up.
     
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  45. schmke

    schmke Professional

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    LOL, I felt stupid while I was writing it. But who knows what the USTA thinks when they implement some things ...
     
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  46. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    okay...so you all are saying that bench mark players are basically B because their ratings for the most part are the most accurate. So then why would they not still use this to give strikes to S rated players. It would seem to make more sense to use this as a way of catching sandbaggers. If I'm B marked and then some S rated comes through and guts me like a fish...don't you think that is a big red flag(strike). I know what I was told way back when...I'm just trying to figure out why would they stop using this when everything you all are saying here justifies them even using this a bar to catch sandbaggers.

     
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  47. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    ahh come on now JRB. I talked to a couple of the guys from Johnson City. They said you ya'll went through 3 cans of balls in the finals where you were banging ***** in the lake and they made you pay for repairs to the fence. lol Im just messin with ya man. Sounds like you had a good season. So according to you...I won't have to worry about that group being totally together now right? They have to break that ***** up. That's good...I think I take any of them down if we are on a level playing field(same match count).lol Hell I was 2 or 3 matches in by the time I ran into them and they sent some guy in that had just gotten off a plane that morning.lol


     
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  48. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    More accurate doesn't mean higher. If I'm a 3.52 B (listed as 4.0B from 3.5 playoffs) and someone else is a 3.84 C (listed as 4.0C), beating the 3.84 C player by 6-1 6-1 is far more strike worthy than the 3.52 B. You may have slightly more confidence that a 6-1 6-1 win against a 3.84 B player is really a strike as opposed to a 3.84 C, but that's really splitting hairs at that point.
     
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  49. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    LOL. In our first match (not TN), on the first point of the match, my partner served and they hit kind of a lollipop return and I spiked it out into the construction zone, so one point into nationals, one new ball. The very next point, same thing, lollipop return, and I'm thinking am I going to spike a ball out into the construction zone every point? The tournament official hadn't even returned with a replacement ball from the first one yet. We're going to run out of balls. So I tried to aim the overhead instead of just crushing it, and they got it back (which my partner then put away). Then, he was like, just keep hitting it out if he gives you those. They have plenty of balls here. The next point, he drilled their net man right in the chest. Not exactly on purpose because the guy was like 6'4" and the ball would have been 8' feet out if he had gotten out of the way, but that's the way the first game went. I knew we had drawn their toughest doubles team, too, so I was like, this is nationals and it's not so bad. We won that one 5-0.

    Of the 8 guys in Johnson City's starting lineup, 7 were bumped, so, no, you don't have to worry about them at 4.0 this year.
     
    #49
  50. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    19,684
    Location:
    Central Florida
    The dirt from the construction zone at Indian Wells was obnoxious when the wind was blowing.
     
    #50

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