Cahill/Agassi: Best two handed bh's ARE NOT like left handed fhs

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by HunterST, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    I've heard Agassi say it before and Cahill just said it during the Wimbledon coverage. They say the players with the most powerful 2 handed backhands use mostly their dominant side making it more like a one hander with the non dominant hand there to guide.

    I think most agree that Bjorn Borg used mostly the right side as well.

    Could the conventional wisdom be wrong?
     
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  2. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    I agree with Cahill. I think everyone with a 2H BH is either right hand dominant, left hand dominant or equal. Meaning, everyone is different... each can be effective depending upon the individual.
     
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  3. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Borg was certainly a right side dominated stroke with the left hand as an assist. However unlike his forehand which was a prototypical modern forehand, I have never seen another high level player use his backhand. In the current age of big spin, big power tennis I think it's fair to ask if his backhand motion could produce the power and pace needed for today's game. I think the answer is YES, but I'm not 100% sure.

    Overall, I honestly don't know. If you watch the 2007 USO QF between Roddick and Federer, Agassi is in the booth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcZFVQCfOQg). Early in the match Agassi comments on Roddick's backhand and talks about the right hand dominated thing. Agassi certainly had an incredible backhand.

    For me personally, I've had the best luck going the left hand forehand route. It's allowed me to get more whip into the motion, which means more racquet head speed, which means more pace and spin. I've tried the form to let my right hand dominate the stroke but, for me, I could just never get it to work as well. The power and spin levels just aren't there. Not saying it can't be done, but it didn't work for me.
     
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  4. President

    President Legend

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    Djokovic looks pretty left hand dominant to me and his backhand is pretty much just as good as Agassi's.
     
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  5. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Matts Wilander is another example of a R hand dominate player. Matts also released his L hand frequently on the follow-thru which is a lot like Borg.

    I have hit a 2 HBH for over 30 years now and still often debate this issue.

    To me, a 2 HBH - even the great ones like Agassi, Safin, and Djoko - are not like a FH and they are not like a normal backhand either. A 2 HBH is like a 2 HBH.

    2 HBH is like a FH a little bit in the follow-thru but even the best pro 2 HBH still don't have the WW follow-thru like the modern backhand.

    2 HBH is like FH in these ways:

    1. For right handed player, the L hand dominates the follow-thru like the dominate R hand does on the FH.
    2. Shoulders open up on follow-thru which is unlike a 1 HBH.

    2 HBH is not like a FH in these ways:

    1. prep phase is different on 2 HBH than a dominate side FH - most 2 handers lead back with the racket head and have a fairly compact take back. Most FH lead back with the elbow and keep the racket head closer to the net than the elbow.
    2. most 2 HBH hit from neutral and even slightly closed stances far more frequently than a normal FH. But, you can hit in a semi-open stance successfully on a 2 HBH. Djoko hits most of his 2 HBH from a fairly neutral to slightly closed stance when he has time but he this almost all FH from a semi-open stance.
     
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  6. doctor dennis

    doctor dennis Rookie

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    I've watched Ferrer many times and think he may have a right hand dominated 2HBH. He let's go quite early with his left hand which is why I think this.
    Could be wrong though.
     
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  7. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    On a long thread in the past, we tried to analyze the modern 2hbh. Seems that players such as Djokovic are left-hand dominant on the 2hbh, so it is definitely not like a 1hbh with the off-hand along for the ride. But that other hand on the racket definitely causes it to look different than a left-handed fh.

    The takeback is different from a left-handed fh, with much less of a loop and less "pat-the-dog." Djokovic will often hit it from the open stance when pressured, but most of the players are still preferring to hit the 2hbh from a closed or neutral stance. Venus Williams is one of the few players who shows a preference to hit her 2hbh from an open stance.

    I guess the relevant question would be to what extent it is like a 2h forehand, which is a fairly rare shot these days.
     
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  8. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I'm not a fan of Ferrer's bh which he hits like a girl.:twisted:

    What I mean by that is that he hits much closer to his body with both arms bent. Most of the big 2hbh players tend to hit with the top arm straight or close to straight (Djokovic, Gulbis, Nalbandian, etc.). Ferrer also separates the hands which shortens the racket much in the same way that Roddick did by choking up on his bh.
     
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  9. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    ^Give him a Wilson Blade 98 2013. The handle is freakishly short, I'm happy I don't hit a two hander with that frame. Yes I have really big hands but yet it's short. Babolat's have a really long grip or so I experienced on a PST Ltd. Plus.

    From what I know, I feel the investment of the "off hand" is really high on a two hander. That's also why I don't hit one: I'd have to strengthen my left arm to correctly control it, or it flies on the fence without bouncing.
     
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  10. BevelDevil

    BevelDevil Hall of Fame

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    Nadal is also very front-arm dominant, at least for the first-half of the stroke. He keeps his front-arm very straight and appears to be pulling the racket forward. If you watch some of his HD videos, you can also see the muscles on his front arm bulging on the forward swing.


    To this I would add that the weight transfer on the closed stance 2hbh is much more similar to the 1hbh than the typical forehand.


    What match did he say it during? Remember the score/time?

    Btw, some other poster in an earlier thread mentioned that he observed Russian coaches telling their players to "pull" with their right. I wonder if maybe just the U.S. has it "wrong" on the 2hbh...
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
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  11. Thepowerofchoice

    Thepowerofchoice Semi-Pro

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    I met Agassi last Nov in Anaheim, CA back stage for the Powershares Series Championship and asked him about that. He told me to use more right hand for 2handedbh (I'm a right handed).

    I'm not going to contradict one of the best players with one of the best 2hbh...BUT I'm sure some of the people on here may disagree with him :)
     
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  12. thejackal

    thejackal Hall of Fame

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    Mikhail youzhny, actually
     
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  13. WhiteStripes

    WhiteStripes Rookie

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    For what it's worth, when I was a kid at Bollettieri's during the late 80s, I was taught a more right-arm dominant two-hander with it initiating and pulling through the shot, with the left hand coming more in play at contact and at extension/follow through. I don't think there's one necessarily "right" method, just whatever the particular player feels comfortable with.
     
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  14. Raul_SJ

    Raul_SJ Professional

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    For a 2 handed backhand, is the top hand always holding a forehand grip (most commonly SW)?

    And what grip is the bottom hand holding?

    If it's a "right-arm dominant" 2 hander, will the bottom grip more likely to be a forehand grip?
     
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  15. Lukhas

    Lukhas Legend

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    ^Continental for the bottom hand, E for the top hand. Can vary between Conti and E for the bottom hand, and between E and SW for the top hand. Find what you're most at ease with between those standards.
     
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  16. morandi

    morandi Rookie

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    The less you think and analyze what your hands are doing on the two hander the better off I think you are. My two hander became a weapon when I focused on my weight transfer and contact point. Just saying...
     
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  17. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    If you look at video there are several hitting arm configurations which explains the variety of thinking above.

    Agassi and Nadal are straight/straight at contact. This version requires at least a mild backhand grip with the bottom hand. If those two guys let go with the rear hand you could imagine them hitting a flat, mild continental grip flatish one hander with ease.

    Most women (and some men) are at the opposite extreme. Bent/Bent. The top arm looks like a double bend forehand. The bottom are is also bent around 90 degrees at the elbow Some of these players--Venus for example--have a grip shift with the bottom hand that probably doesn't rise to the level of even a slight continental--more like an old style eastern forehand--think Don Budge. This version is the most left arm dependent.

    Most men like Djok or Andy are Bent/Straight. This version relies on the bottom arm to initiate followed by a push with the top arm. These guys all have continental to mild eastern grips with the bottom arm. Makes sense because the initial pull is critical. Roddick's big weakness was his backhand was Bent/Straight but he had a very weak (Venus like) grip with the bottom hand.

    All of these combinations are viable at all levels--it's some combo of natural inclination and correct technical input.
     
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  18. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Agreed, there are many valid ways to hit a 2HBH. My preferred way (as a righty) is to use the left hand as in a left handed forehand and execute footwork accordingly, while using the right hand for control and coordination (mainly). I use a continental grip for my right hand, so it is very hard for me to use it for power, anyway.
     
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  19. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    #19
  20. EP1998

    EP1998 Semi-Pro

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    Great post, thank you.
     
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  21. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    [​IMG]

    I think this is an amazing picture from SI.com Talk about identical.
     
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  22. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I won't join the right vs left dominant hand thing, but one thing I noticed is that almost all 2hbh's are closer to old school eastern forhand than the modern WW finish stronger grip semi open stanced forehands of today.
     
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  23. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Nice photo.

    Neither of those is like a 1hbh. Neither player is right hand dominant at contact. Both were hitting the bh well today.
     
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  24. BevelDevil

    BevelDevil Hall of Fame

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    Neither one looks like a forehand either. "Not like a forehand" doesn't mean "like a 1hbh," I suppose.

    Also, if you look at Dkokos right arm, his muscles look like that arm is active.
     
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  25. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Are you sure those don't look like forehands? I'm not an expert on how a 2h forehand looks, but I can imagine the right hand off the racket and it sort of looks like a late hit forehand.

    I agree that both arms are active. But I don't agree that the right arm is dominant. Try to imagine Djokovic hitting that shot in the picture without his left hand on the racket. Sorry, that doesn't look like any 1hbh I've seen hit by a professional.

    As Yandell noted, it is definitely possible to hit with both arms pretty much straight as Agassi did, but guys like Djokovic and Del Potro are doing something fundamentally different. At contact their left arm is clearly dominant.
     
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  26. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Check out both of their wrist positions and imagine trying to hit a 1 hander with your wrist like that. They definitely use both arms like you pointed out but it appears the left does a little more of the work but certainly not identical to a forehand.
     
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  27. BevelDevil

    BevelDevil Hall of Fame

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    The shoulder tilt is unlike most forehands. Stance and weight transfer is also usually different.


    Once you agree that both arms are active, that pretty much rules out calling it a "left handed forehand." That's the most important point.

    Also, I never said is was a 1hbh. I just said it wasn't a forehand. That's a big distinction. If I say the moon isn't blue, that doesn't mean I'm saying it's red.


    Even if that's true, the whole stroke is more than just contact. The forward swing is at least as important.

    As for "clearly dominant", I'm not even sure what "dominant" means in this context. The left arm is straight. The right arm is pulling. Which is "dominant"? Obviously both are playing important roles in the stroke as a whole.

    Just because the right arm is bent doesn't mean it's not doing something active or "dominant". Bending can be a sign that it's pulling and guiding (as is likely the case with Djoko).


    BTW, last year on TT there was a similar thread, very heated. The left-handed-forehand camp was much stronger. Also, many people insisted that Agassi's left arm was clearly "dominant" because it seemed to plow through contact so much.
     
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  28. chip and charge

    chip and charge New User

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    Agree with white stripes. I've been fiddling around with at this two-handed backhand puzzle for awhile. The best results I've gotten is with the right arm starting the pull and then the left hand arm taking over and driving thru at contact. I believe the pull of the right hand should happen as the hands/arms are dropping down into the slot (same as a forehand). You almost want to feel a slight delay in the left hand releasing to build up tension. To my eye, that looks like what Agassi is doing. Cahill should be a respected and knowledgeable source.
     
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  29. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Bridget,

    Thank you!

    Chip, Bevel,

    I used to believe the two-hander was most like a left handed forehand. But if you delve into the video data you see the complexities.

    Another key indicator that both hands are active in most versions is stance. The majority of modern two-handers are hit with the stance closed.

    You see open at times and neutral around the center of the court, but the majority of the men's two-handers are hit with closed stance cross step--This is like the one-handed backhand and nothing like the forehand which is overwhelming open.

    The players who hit predominantly open stance like Venus have two handers that are the most like the forehand--often as noted they also have weak grips with the bottom hand.
     
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  30. chip and charge

    chip and charge New User

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    John,
    2HBH seems simple but as you said the stroke is complex. Many ways to hit it. However, which technique is best. We are all looking for an edge in whatever field we are in. Regarding Agassi's backhand, i remember reading somewhere, when he was on the run his shot had limitations. Also, recently, I was watching Dogopolov play. The slow motion replays on the TV are getting better and better and the size of your screen let's you focus on the entire image. Anyway, I couldn't believe what I saw. Again to my eye, Dogo was pulling with the right handle in the slot, but was actively supinating the left hand then pronating the hand into contact. I looked at other slo mo vids of him and saw him do this supinate pronate move with the non dominant had often. I had a lot of success hitting this way, but it did bother my right wrist so I stopped. I was using conti grip with the dominant hand and eastern forehand with the left.
     
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  31. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Well Brian Gordon like Novak's bent straight and thinks it is the most biomechanically efficient.

    But again theory and practice aren't the same. I worked with a guy in the top 100 who would not let go of his need to model Agassi. Unfortunately for him he was just a very natural bent/bent guy so he never really resolved the issues.

    I like to see people hit one handed backhands then left handed forehands. If there is some big difference that can be a clue. But sometimes just filming the two hander tells you everything.
     
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  32. chip and charge

    chip and charge New User

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    Tough to argue against the efficiency of Djokovic's backhand. How did Gordon evaluate this efficiency?
     
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  33. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    By comparing the quantitative biomechanics of multiple high level players using all the variations. The same as his forehand and serve studies.
     
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  34. chip and charge

    chip and charge New User

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    John,
    how could I access this info. thanks in advance.
     
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  35. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    I'm certainly no Agassi/Cahill but I can hit a decent 1 or 2 handed backhand with topspin. So one would assume that my better 2 hander would be right hand dominant but it is not. It does help that I'm almost ambidextrous.
     
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  36. doctor dennis

    doctor dennis Rookie

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    I've got an on off 2HBH. More off than on though.

    I had a hit today and started pulling more with the right had under the ball and then brushing with and hitting up and through with my left.

    It was the most consistent I've been in terms of pace and spin for a long time.
     
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  37. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    Agree with this. Michael Chang was another guy who's 2hb was vulnerable and used an eastern righthand grip.

    The better straight/bent 2hbs of juniors I have coached and open players I have competed against, they almost always have a continental bottom hand. The ones with eastern fh bottom hand on the 2hb tend to have trouble extending the other arm fully into the shot. For a righthander using an eastern (fh) righthand grip on the 2hb (or worse, a sw fh righthand grip on the 2hb), extending the left arm fully requires the right wrist to bend at an awkward (if not uncomfortable) angle. Hence, they need to rely on a shorter hitting zone, which is inherently less reliable.

    I see a lot of juniors who have talented games, but the one achilles heel is a wimpy 2hb suffering from this problem. Some of them, I have convinced to adjust the grip in order to improve in the long run, and it has paid huge dividends for them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
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  38. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Yes, I think this is a universal truth of the 2 HBH world: you can not use a forehand grip on you bottom hand. You must switch from from your E, SW, or W forehand grip to a conti or mild E BH grip in order to hit a good 2 HBH. Safan, Agassi, Djoko, Tsonga and many more all do this.
     
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  39. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Chip,

    Brian has done coaching convention presentations on this using our high speed video to illustrate his 3D research and conclusions. We will eventually have his take on it on Tennisplayer, and also the teaching progressions Brian and Rick Macci have developed.

    Brian is down there at Rick's and it's possible to work with either of them directly there.
     
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  40. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Chang has a eastern Backhand grip. Not a eastern forehand grip.
    Check out the location of Chang right hand and how the knuckles are on top of the grip. That is a full eastern backhand grip. Not a forehand eastern grip.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
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  41. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    The grip issue is the definitive point in the argument that the two-hander is (or actually is not) a left handed forehand.

    The only player with a great two-hander without some mild bh grip is Venus--and her backhand has another major "forehand" characteristic--she hits the majority of them open stance.

    But that is the exception and especially for the guys it is a two-handed shot. The exact balance of how the arms are used can vary but the bottom hand grip seems absolutely critical.
     
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  42. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

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    Something still looks wrong about that grip though...
     
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  43. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    LOL. Yeah, Chang's grip is over to the full backhand and farther over than these guys:
    [​IMG]
     
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  44. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    I have hit a 2hbh with all three grips on the right hand and with being right and left hand dominate with all 3 grips. Through my own experience, the continental grip on the right hand is a happy medium of the three. With this grip I have found it very important that the left hand has to follow through the ball with this grip to impart topspin.
     
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  45. tennis_hack

    tennis_hack Banned

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    Do you think that the Windshield-Wiper-finish double bent 2hbh like Wozniacki's here will be the next evolution in 2hbh?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1-wyBFRHwwY#t=39s

    Wozniacki, unlike Venus, hits most from a closed stance, but I'm assuming she could hit from an open stance, in which case the evolution to a left-handed forehand would be complete - an open stance, double bend, windshield wiper finish stroke. I'm assuming you'd use a weak bottom hand grip like a right handed eastern forehand grip, and a strong bottom grip like a lefthanded sw or w forehand grip.

    Interestingly, the straight/straight combo can also produce a windshield-wiper finish like with Nadal and Courier. Here's Nadal doing it;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6_ejJFR5HpQ#t=74s

    although he doesn't finish as low as Wozniacki... I'm assuming for this style you'd use a strong bottom hand grip like a right handed full eastern backhand grip, and for the top hand a strong grip like a sw or w left handed forehand grip...

    EDIT: I'd also love it if you could share any more topspin backhand rpm data from anyone on either mens or womens' tour?
     
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  46. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    I'll be switching to a 2h backhand after our season is over. I want to just return with 2h. What is the prevailing thought on return grip position. Do they start with a forehand grip on the dominant hand, or are you prepped for a backhand return and just roll it over to a forehand grip?
     
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  47. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    First, hit the wall with your other hand, to determine basic grip, which is normally a eForehand.
    Concentrate only on balls from waist high to just overhead, like for ROServes.
    Concentrate on short, direct, quick swing, for fast first serves.
    Now get your practice partner, who has a good serve, to serve some to you. Remember, you might not need to move feet, but you need a shoulder turn.
    And have your practice partner serve some into your body.
    I'd hold main hand normal, for the forehand return, and switch the main hand as needed, if needed, to hit the 2hbh returns. You get used to lettng go on really wide returns, so any grip works in a desperate reaching situation.
    All 2hbh's are hit flatter and with less spin than modern forehands, so think of them as an abbreviated stroke eForehand return of serve.
    Before you doubter's chime in, remember, this is for RETURN OF SERVES, and not for all groundstrokes.
     
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  48. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    Hack,

    It's possible. You see it occasionally and the wiper on the forehand no doubt is a huge factor in the increased rates of topspin combined with the copoly.

    On the spin numbers I posted those in the other thread.
     
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  49. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

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    2ndS,

    Not to give input unsollicited--ok I am--but I would decide to have either a two-handed or one-handed backhand. Never seen a good player who had both.
     
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  50. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I would think 2ndS realizes the benefits of return of serves wth 2hbh, and is not set on swithing completley over to 2hbh until he sees the benefits of 2hbh during rallies.
    Question is also out on 2hbh for volleys, since GeneMayer, FrewMcMillian, JimmyConnors (when he was getting to No.1) and now Bartoli can absolutely CRUSH waist high volleys for clean winners....
    I like the 2hbh volleys myself. My 3rd thru 5th year of tennis, exclusively 1hbh if I could reach the ball. 1hbh on forehand volleys, though.
     
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