Cahill/Agassi: Best two handed bh's ARE NOT like left handed fhs

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by HunterST, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    no I'm set on the 1hbh for rallies. I however try to take the returns 1st and 2nd very early and come to the net. Hitting 1hbh returns on the extreme rise and coming in has been very inconsistent for me this season. I don't have the groundies to consistently beat some of the better doubles team here so I try to take the net before they do.

    I've seen some chip and chargers take it very early on the return but imo it probably won't work at usta league next season, especially from the duece return side where guys love to poach. USTA Tournament 5.0 servers are pretty pedestrian compared to USTA League 5.0 imo. The later the spin really torques the racket on the 1hbh. It's much easier to return 5 feet from behind the baseline but it gives the poacher too much time this way.

    This would save me a lot of experimental hours. On 2hbh returns is it faster to go from a forehand grip to bh or vice versa
     
    #51
  2. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Chip and charge is the way to go instead of learning a new stroke you are not going to use as a ground stroke. It's about sameness and consistency. Also don't be a afraid to go right at the guy at the net to keep him honest.
    Just my $.02.
     
    #52
  3. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Agree. Never seen a good player have both. You have to chose one or the other and live with it.
     
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  4. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    #54
  5. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
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  6. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    #56
  7. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I use dominant hand in fh grip (almost SW), non-dominant in bh grip.

    Agreed. Pick one horse and ride it.
     
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  8. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    What specifically do you not like?
     
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  9. Frank Silbermann

    Frank Silbermann Professional

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    #59
  10. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Its not a all left arm with the right only 10% of the work. With a right handed two handed backhand its the right arm moving forward and the left the going up. I think of it as 50-50%
     
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  11. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I agree with you that it's not a 90/10 split. I think that kind of split makes for a mighty weak shot. Even in the most left hand dominated 2hbh I think the right hand is contributing a lot more than that.

    I also think that there are some different ways to make a 2hbh work relative to the balance of the hands. But I am personally in the left hand dominant camp for my own 2hbh. I've tried it both ways, and for me (not making a general statement), the more I've let my left hand control the shot, the better my bh has gotten. My right hand is mostly for power.

    I just wanted to know your thoughts.
     
    #61
  12. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Left does do work. You need to clear that left side out and get the racquet through the contact zone to get any power on your shot.
     
    #62
  13. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    I'm a 1HBH guy, but have been experimenting with a 2HBH for a couple of months now. From an outsiders, honest perspective, I hit my best 2HBH when I really begin the swing by pulling on the handle with my right arm. Once I make contact with the ball, then my left arm starts to push and guide the frame up over my shoulder.

    When I try to overthink the shot and forget to pull with my right arm -- and therefore begin the shot with my left arm by pushing -- that's when my BH really stinks. So as long as I don't think about it and let my right arm begin the process, it works out better.
     
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  14. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    What you're doing sounds fine from what I can tell. With my bh, and I assume any good left hand dominant 2hbh, the left hand/arm doesn't push, it pulls in the same way the right hand/arm pulls on a fh. The right hand/arm helps with that.

    Basically you have to get some SSC happening in the stroke or it's never going to have much power. The hands come out front with the racquet trailing, and then the racquet whips around. There are a couple of ways to do that. However I don't see how pushing the racquet is going to get the SSC done.
     
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  15. TimeSpiral

    TimeSpiral Professional

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    With my 2HBH, the right hand is for stability, the left hand does everything else. To be more clear, the 2HBH is very much like a left handed forehand. When I first learned the 2HBH (transitioned out of the 1HBH), I taught myself by leaving my right hand off the racquet and hitting left handed forehands. Then, gradually, I started added my right hand to the racquet: 2 fingers at first, then a light grip, then finally, the full stabilizing grip.

    My 2HFH is different. It feels split much closer to 50/50, with both hands providing stability and power.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
    #65
  16. Frank Silbermann

    Frank Silbermann Professional

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    Chang's left hand is in an eastern forehand grip as the eastern grip was taught in the early 1970s. What is more important is that his left _arm_ is in the position of a (cramped) single-handed forehand hit with that grip. No one ever hit a decent one-handed backhand with the arm bent like Chang's right arm.
     
    #66
  17. Brian11785

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    I am the opposite. Both of my shots are mostly right hand dominant:

    My 2HFH is about 90/10 right-hand dominant. It is pretty much a 1HFH with the left hand there for stability and to make sure the backswing doesn't get too big. I'd fear that if I had a left-hand dominant 2HFH, it would screw with my muscle-memory when having to hit a one-hander when pushed really wide.

    My 2HBH is right-hand dominant too, though it's hard to list a percentage. The backswing is all right hand. My left arm is totally relaxed at that point in order to "elbow the person behind me." When the swing towards the ball begins, I'd say it's closer to 50/50. A lot of the power (the forward/upaward push) does come from the left hand, but I feel like the right hand is the one really in charge of things.
     
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  18. TimeSpiral

    TimeSpiral Professional

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    Fascinating!
     
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  19. ext2hander

    ext2hander Rookie

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    Collage of two-handers

    Here's a collage of various two-handers ... Pick the style that suits your body and physics; whatever you do, develop a relaxed stroke so you don't wear yourself out!
    [​IMG] :wink:
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
    #69
  20. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Funny how the 2 Swedes Borg and Wilander look so much alike. Very strong shoulder turn, strong pull on R hand, and Strong Conti or EBH grip on lower hand. They also tended to release the top hand on the follow thru quite frequently.
     
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  21. ext2hander

    ext2hander Rookie

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    OK, so which of these players do you think you could EMULATE?

    I sense that most these examples look rather rigid, with substantial muscular effort, not relaxed by any means. From the latter standpoint, I like the ore relaxed Murray, Evert, Chong, Wilander, and maybe Oudin. No way could I emulate the straight arms of Agassi, Nalbandian, Courier, or the wristy appearance of Seles, Jandovic, Sharapova, or Nadal. Of course, these are single image captures, and other images of the same player could radically differ.
     
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  22. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    Safat :lol:
     
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  23. ext2hander

    ext2hander Rookie

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    Interesting you should pointed out Safat. I'd just received a video of a really hot junior player, from a coach teaching in So America, with a fabulous two-hand backhand and forehand. Whereas, I might have looped the backswing with conventional 2-hand backhand grip, he would loop back and then drop the racquet sharply while closing the racquet face toward the ground. Replaying the video in slo-mo, it seems he was getting a tremendous whip and racquet face velocity on the subsequent stroke toward the hitting zone. Safat's freeze-frame looks eerily similar to the hot junior. He also had a superb backhand, using the left-hand to pull the racquet throat back and alongside, backloop, and strong windshield wiper action on the follow through.

    Do others with great two-handers use that sharp drop of the racquet face before stroking toward the ball. I sense this gives a whip action and hence speedup with face square to the ball at impact. Perhaps, I'm too old to do this without hurting myself. I'll have to watch Safat's videos, too!
     
    #73
  24. TennisCJC

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    I would emulate Borg because he looks cool. Chicks dig it.
     
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  25. ext2hander

    ext2hander Rookie

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    I choose to disagree, with my "extended" two-hand backhand grip (grip sequence shown in first 20 seconds) with an extreme 98/2 split (or 95/5, as you wish). Left hand is at the racquet butt, right-hand thumb and forefinger wrapped around the butt cap. Right-hand two fingers used only to assure perfect alignment of the racquet face. Its my power shot, when needed to complement my 1HBH -- just the opposite of what most would think. The stroke is also quite relaxed and free, with elongated hitting zone and fast racquet face speed which can reflect the hardest shot back, unlike most two-handers which are hit with significant muscular effort and best suited for youth. Try it. It works, really.
     
    #75
  26. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I just hit with a 5.0 from the this board this last weekend. This guy was a ranked junior at one time. Very nice strokes. His 2hbh was very good, and he could crack it with considerable authority. We talk about form after we finished hitting and I asked him specifically about his 2hbh. He said he had a "death grip with both hands." Not what I expected to hear, but I couldn't argue with the results.

    ext2hander, I understand what you're trying to do with your extended 2hbh. I think it's generally good, that idea of being relaxed and free. But there is more than one way to make a stroke work and there's not just one thing that's the key. It's everything working together.

    One thing you might want to consider incorporating into your own hitting (on all of your strokes) is to allow your hands to come forward more before you turn your shoulders into the ball (keep the racquet pointing to the back fence). This will create a bit more whip in the racquet and create more power from your core. Add that to your extended two hander and it might give you even more power.
     
    #76
  27. ext2hander

    ext2hander Rookie

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    Kelley, you are exactly right. I've been trying to incorporate that into my forehand, in which the left hand takes the racquet back by the throat, with racquet and hands facing more forward (like Mauro Marcos shows in his instructional youtube videos). Most all the Pro's seem to do this, if you freeze frame, even Agassi! When I was hitting against a 13 yrs old junior player recently (giving up >50 yrs), I HAD TO DO THIS, in order to get the shoulders turned and more whip of the racquet forward to strongly meet his high velocity balls! In my recent video, my partner was not a strong hitter, and hence I was a bit lazy in setting up. Actually, she couldn't consistently return the balls straight, and so I had to run down the balls all over the court.

    For the extended two-hander, since my left-hand two fingers are at the butt cap, I cannot use the left-hand at the throat to bring the racquet back, and then switch from throat to butt cap for the stroke! But I can experiment with hands and racquet forward more before loopback and rotation to impact. I'm still using my one-hander for 80% of backhands, being more useful for doubles play for slice, topspin, volleys. The extended two-hander is my best, and hardest driving shot -- maybe still room for improvement, like you say, and keep experimenting. Thanks for your comments!
     
    #77
  28. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    I believe we're talking about two different things. Using the left hand on the throat and starting the turn of the shoulders, the unit turn, is good and just about all pros do this on their fh.

    However what I was talking about was during the forward swing getting the racquet hand(s) out in front at the beginning of the stroke. Another way of thinking of it is driving the butt end of the racquet out to the ball before you allow the racquet to come around.
     
    #78
  29. ext2hander

    ext2hander Rookie

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    OK, I got it, keep the racquet head pointing toward the back fence longer, before completing the stroke to impact. When practicing hitting this AM, I did focus on what I had mentioned earlier, i.e. start backswing with racquet face point more forwards and closed to the ground, then loopback and stroke forwards. This worked extremely well for my forehand shots. When I do this, a byproduct is that I was also doing what you were recommending! I realizing some players start with racquet face high on the backswing, but I seem so find starting the backswing with racquet face more forwards during the shoulder turn gets even more whip -- and control. Seems to work, with relaxed, while hitting the ball hard. Not much muscle needed at impact. I'll have to review how it applies to my 2-hand and 1-hand backhands, by close observation and video of my strokes. Thanks!
     
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