Calling footfaults is important

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by sureshs, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    If stepping on or over the baseline when serving is not a big deal, then maybe it's not gonna' be a big deal to you when I call your ball, that hit the line, OUT! It's no big deal after all, it's only an inch or two, how much can an inch or two matter to the outcome--after all, when I call every one of your liners out, you're still going to kick my ass anyway, aren't you? It's so hard for me to see those lines from so far away, it's just a blur, I think people who don't like it when I call their maybe liners out, are just ass-hats, they are anal, why don't they just play horseshoes instead?
     
  2. tamdoankc

    tamdoankc Rookie

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    Finally went to a tourney that called foot faults. There were so many double faults. Some players even got mad but rules are rules. It was hilarious!
     
  3. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    There are rules for officiated games and rules for non-officiated games.

    And receivers have either no right or a right in the very final instance to call a foot fault and only when it's flagrant.

    Its called a rule book and I quoted from it and it says what I said it says.



     
  4. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly, I have only once seen anyone foot faulting where advantage may have been possible, so most people complaining about foot faults are simply being obnoxious.

    Every ATP match is officiated over by scores of umpires, linesmen, ball boys, and the like so they can afford to be meticulous about every line.

    Foot faulting is due to a technical fault with service and not due to hitting a ball out so these are two very separate issues.

    I've lost zero points playing against people foot faulting, but many points playing against people deliberately calling lines in their favour.



     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  5. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    Most are retentive. Ironically, they likely to do infinitely more damage to their own return game watching and worrying over someone's heel crossing an imaginary center line or back foot sliding up over the line than any possible advantage gained by the server.

    If a guy is routinely ff'ing, 99 out of 100 he doesn't have a serve worth concern. And I'm not convinced calling it to "get into his head" isn't worse gamesmanship than the fault itself.
     
  6. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Yesterday for grins, I called foot-faults on a dub opponent during warm-up. I wouldn't have bothered if it weren't for this thread and that fact that this club player annoyed from the start.

    We had warmed up, I served first, FBI, (which means first ball in), as is the "general" convention at this club. Next up to serve is Mr. Annoying. He announces he wants warm-up serves--I groan and get some water. PEOPLE! real players warm up their serves during the warm-up--that's why it's called a WARM-UP! At the rec or club level, you mutually decide to do one or the other, everyone either hits warm-up serves or FBI.

    Then, Mr. Annoying becomes Mr. Clueless also wanting FBI--of course. It's rude and ridiculous to make three people wait around, while Mr. Annoying/Clueless solitarily hits his practice serves, which he should have opted to do during the "warm-up".

    So, moral of the story--he thanks me for telling him that he was foot-faulting, that he's not one of those players who takes it personally but appreciates the opportunity to correct it.

    Contrary to Barleby's attempt at revisionism of the rules and history of tennis, if someone during a rec match calls you for ff'ing you should be appreciative that they have the balls to do it and thank them. If you ever have any aspirations for tournament competition ff'ing will come back to bite you and really get into your head then--and those you play with will think more highly of you maybe buying your used car or a drink at the bar.
     
  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Read my first post in this thread. It is not about the slight advantage.
     
  8. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You can do whatever you want amongst consenting adults, but the reality is that the rule is that the receiver has no right to call foot faults in non-officiated games.






     
  9. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Your first post was about using foot faults not as a way of penalizing a player for getting an unfair advantage, but as a psychological technique to unnerve his service performance and hence gain a significant advantage.

    I can't see that's a particularly 'fair' way to win, and it's another good reason why you're not allowed to call foot faults in non-officiated games.



     
  10. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Its been my experience that the people who cheat at line calls are usually the same people who get self-righteous about all sorts of rules when they're losing.

    They're losers who worry about rules they never follow because they want to win no matter how, rather than play fair and win.
     
  11. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    Sounds like it's about gamesmanship. Next you can measure his racket, comment on his dampner being in the string bed, shoes too rough for clay court, tennis attire not to club standards, placement of towel, sunglasses reflexing sunlight, type of balls used, stealing a sip of water after 1 game switch, etc. Get into his head and have fun!
     
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    1. Racket measurement not needed. 50% of players do not use illegal rackets, nor would know how to obtain them, but 50% footfault.

    2. I have sometimes pointed out dampener being placed improperly (outside of a match). But putting the dampener into the right position will have very little psychological impact on the player. The impact of FF enforcement is huge, as several have testified here.

    3. I myself don't call FFs in a match when I am playing. I prefer to spread the gossip from the sidelines when other people are playing, to increase the awareness level. Slowly, we will see a transformation in society by non-violent means.
     
  13. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    So if someone you've called for foot faulting stands an inch from your face and gives you a dressing down then that's social change through non-violent means as well as your own gossip girl approach.
     
  14. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    lol. Let's hope the gossip and sideline shouts stay non-violent.
     
  15. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Whatever semantic gamesmanship you want to play with the FF rule here, one is certainly within their rights and the rules to point it out to the opponent that he is FF'ing. What the perp does after that is up to him and his ethics. If being called on it when he does it, gets into his head, it's his fault for FF'ing and giving his opponent the opportunity to get into his thick head. You may not want to ever play again with someone who calls you on it, but he may not want to play with you again either.

    All the things you mention are in the specified rules of tennis or rules for guests and members of tennis clubs and facilities. If you don't like someone getting into your head, then follow the simple rules of the game and don't give them any ammunition--they are so simple to understand and follow. If you want to question authority buy a skateboard.
     
  16. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    Refresh my memory on the simple and easy to follow rule re: FBI. Sounds as if the guy got into your head.
     
  17. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, you can point out that the opponent is foot faulting in America, but unless you can get an official on court that's about it.

    But, really, you are not in the right position to make such a judgement and if there is no real benefit to the server it's really a question of your ethics.

    The rules for non-officiated tennis are slightly different for good reason, as this thread has amply demonstrated.



     
  18. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I don't understand your question, but if you're asking what does FBI mean, out West it means FIRST BALL (first serve) IN. This is used in lieu of warming up ones serve in the correct fashion, which is taking about six serves from the deuce and then about six from the ad side. In rec play, to speed things along, usually they play first serve in--but taking practice serves when everyone else has taken FBI, AND then calling for first in is bush and inconsiderate to make everyone else stand around.

    He did not get in my head from your meaning of the term, that his bush behavior was negative to my performance. He got into my head in the annoying sense. I couldn't understand how a man who holds himself in high esteem, holds a job as a professional and considers himself a sophisticated man of the world, doesn't care to learn the simple rules, conventions and etiquette of a game he's been playing for many years.

    There's an expression in tennis, "Don't wake him up", meaning don't **** your opponent off because it will make him play better--that is if they have a game to begin with.
     
  19. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Speak for yourself, just because you think it's so and say it's so is absolutely meaningless. I'm playing in the good ol' USA, judging by your icon I assume you're playing in Cuba. Fidel and Che can make up any rules they want, they ARE dictators after all. I'm sorry you have not experienced what excellent vision is like. I've worked hard for mine and primarily tennis IS the exercise to develop good vision. There are many ways of improving vision through eye exercises and working with eye therapists, it's like yoga for the eyes. If you'd like to learn more I can recommend some excellent books on vision/VISION. I feel the role of good vision is woefully under valued as an element in the success of great athletes--if you can't see it you can't hit it.


    What happens at the service line is multiplied exponentially as the ball travels over the net. An inch or two advantage where the serve is hit from, most certainly translates to a big difference on the other side of the net, especially if one's game is at a finely tuned level. High level tennis is all about hitting the lines.
     
  20. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You're a narcissist as well, what a surprise, and an opthalmologist!

    Roger Ailes loves you.



     
  21. Oski10s

    Oski10s New User

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    http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Rules/Rules-and-Line-Calls/Foot_Faulting/

    Why not just go straight to the source, as far as the USTA is concerned:

    “Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player’s personal honor system.”

    "For the record, habitual foot faulting is as bad as intentionally cheating on line calls."

    "If they are truly guilty of foot faulting, then they are cheating."

    Finally, if you guys keep insisting that it's not really an advantage, then why not just back up a few inches so you are not foot faulting? Instead you are basically saying that you like being a cheater and you have no honor?
     
  22. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    These are not the rules. These are someone's interpretation of what should happen. I've quoted the exact rules above.

    He actually confirms what I argued above in that its up to the player committing the foot fault to change his own behaviour.

    He also implicitly confirms that it is not the right of the receiver to go around foot faulting people in non-officiated games.

    In short, its not up to the self-interested gamesmanship of the receiver.

    Your opponent gets to call lines on your ball because he's the closest, but he's not the closest with a foot fault.

    And because it is an honour system, foot fault is about the honesty of the server and not the officiousness or gamesmanship of the receiver.

    The receiver should advise the server he thinks he's foot faulting, off court preferably.



     
  23. Oski10s

    Oski10s New User

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    ITF Tennis Rules (dated July 16, 2012), please see Rule 18, page 8:

    http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_62594_original.PDF

    Since you are obviously too lazy, or stubborn to look up the rules yourself:

    18. FOOT FAULT
    During the service motion, the server shall not:
    a. Change position by walking or running, although slight movements of the feet are permitted; or
    b. Touch the baseline or the court with either foot; or
    c. Touch the area outside the imaginary extension of the sideline with either
    foot; or
    d. Touch the imaginary extension of the centre mark with either foot.

    If the server breaks this rule it is a “Foot Fault”.

    Okay, so the cheater is now suggesting that someone that is playing by the rules is somehow doing it out of gamesmanship? So, let me see...I'm going to hook calls and if the other person objects, it's the victim's attempt at gamesmanship?

    Maybe it would help if you let us know what country you are located, because obviously you are playing by different rules. Also judging by your interest in Nicki Minaj, I'm going to assume you are a petulant teenager that knows it all and are incapable of acknowledging [foot] fault?
     
  24. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I've quoted the rules above for non-officiated games, not officiated games.

    No one is disputing what the rule is in officiated games so you need to do some reading about what the precise topic is.

    I must thank you for quoting this however because look how much the word 'imaginary' features in the defintion.

    Is there anything imaginary about where a ball bounces?

    Its a technical rule.

    Funnily enough, I wouldn't call the movement of the back foot forward in a pinpoint serve as a 'slight movement', but it is interpreted as such.




     
  25. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    As I requested above, I asked for rules in non-officiated games from people and have been provided with none.

    I've quoted the US and the Australian rules, so if anyone has any rules about receiver's being allowed an unfettered right to call foot faults I'd be happy to know about it.
     
  26. Oski10s

    Oski10s New User

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    I played on my high school team growing up in California in the 80s. Back then, it wasn't even a question of calling a foot fault, because it was a fault. I don't know at what juncture it has become a controversial topic? But I will quote the US High School Tennis Association rule on the subject:

    "Foot Faults
    A player may warn his opponent that the opponent has committed a flagrant foot fault. If the foot faulting continues, the play may attempt to locate an official. If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults. Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player's personal honor system."

    http://www.ushsta.org/COACHES/PUBLICAREA/HSTC/MISC/BasicTennisRules.htm

    Incidentally I think people that flagrantly foot fault is in fact the ones that are working on "gamesmanship," because they are (1) cheating and (2) rubbing it in your nose. So they should be called out on it. If it gives no advantage (as you've suggested previously), then just step back a couple of inches. But if you insist on cheating, that's your own personal [dis-]honor system.

    It's getting tedious to continue this debate. At this point I've provided the official ITF rules (officiated), the USTA opinion (non-officated), the USHSTA rules (non-officated).
     
  27. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The rule is the usta one and it makes the calling of foot faults by the receiver a last resort and only when flagrant, whatever that may mean.

    Its clear from the way the rule is structured that they really want the receiver to request an official to attend to call a foot fault.

    I've got no problems with officials calling foot faults.

    It also places the onus on the server to comply with the rule and not on the receiver to police it.
     
  28. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    "If I'm not for myself, who is for me?" (Hillel) My cat loves me.

    And I love Roger Ailes as well, as soon as SCOTUS makes marriage legal between LGBT/LSMFT/XY&Z/COUSINS & TRILOBITES, we intend to have a three way marriage with Sean Hannity.




    AMEN, we have a winner, proof in writing, thank you Oski 10's for doing the leg work. The issue became controversial when Serena Williams threatened to shove a tennis ball down the throat of the diminutive Asian woman linesperson at the USO and kill her with it. It was then that historic revisionism of the foot fault rule began. BTW, I've yet to hear an apology to the lines lady but I have seen numerous commercials by Serena and her sponsors making light of the very ugly incident.

    Bartleby, does that red star you use for an icon mean you work for Macy's, or are you trying to help to drive their stock up?

    Nice match, virtual handshake.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  29. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I quoted these same words many, many posts ago so you have revealed nothing other than the fact that you comment on things you have not examined and do not understand.

    See my extensive comments on this passage that I will not repeat.




     
  30. cneblett

    cneblett Rookie

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    I took almost 20 years off and missed when it became ok to foot fault, because it does appear a lot of people do it repeatedly
     
  31. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    This is the part that makes no sense.

    So calling FFs is important, but you don't call them in matches when you are playing.

    I don't understand. What better way to "increase the awareness level" than simply to call FFs whenever you see them? Why would you think anyone is paying attention to your muttering and gossiping from the sidelines?

    MLK didn't transform society by non-violent means by muttering and gossiping and whispering. On account of how it doesn't work.

    Come on. I dare you. For 2013, call every single flagrant FF you see (giving a warning as provided by the Code). Start a thread here on Jan. 1, 2013 to chronicle your opponents' reactions. If no one has murdered you by Dec. 31, I will be the first to salute you.
     
  32. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    If it's not against the rules, why should you go get an official for repeated offenses?
     
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    My eyesight is not good enough to call FFs as a returner. As a net person in doubles, it is somewhat better. But I usually play singles matches only socially, and doubles matches in the occasional club tournament, not USTA. The only league I have played is WTT, when I was more tensed about the odd rules. Even there, I refused to play away matches.

    So, for me, calling FFs is not a priority. My interest is mainly academic.

    It is like someone trying to run a red light in a hurry. There are those who use a little-known law which allows them to complain to the DMV about a particular car whose licence plate they got, and the DMV must investigate. But I don't do that. Does it mean that I should say that running red lights is OK? Should it depend on whether a fatal accident occurred or did not occur? Do I need to have great eyesight and reflexes to be 100% sure the light was red and not yellow, and prove my skills to everyone? No. What I must do is to ensure that I tell people around me it is not a good thing to do.
     
  34. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    For the purposes of this thread, likewise academic. In rec play I wouldn't call ff's either, it's for exercise and practice, you just want to move play along so you can hit more balls. No one is going to report the scores to the sports section of the newspapers, even Wimbledon scores are relegated to the last page unless someone streaks.

    If it is a competitive match, where the scores will be reported for rankings and there is footfaulting, I will point it out to the perp and if he continues, I will call for an official to monitor the match.
     
  35. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Meh. If FFs matter, call them. If they don't, don't.

    If a person complains but doesn't call them, how much credibility is there?
     
  36. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, and that's what you're entitled to do in america, as I have always pointed out.



     
  37. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I called a FF on a guy from the sidelines today. He said he would try to change. For the next serve he stood a little back, and glanced at his feet several times before starting the serve. It went so long that it hit the back fence without a bounce, prompting the returner to joke that he should confine his play to the assigned court only.

    From the next serve, the server went back to his FFing.

    Proves my point that it is not about the advantage but the mental breakdown when faced with the consequences.
     
  38. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Are you opposed to capitalizing AMERICA for some reason? Would you use caps for macys or cuba, whatever your red star icon is symbolic of? In most countries around the planet you would not have the entitlements one takes for granted here. In fact most of the planet would not be entitled to the good life it enjoys today without the blood shed by AMERICAN soldiers.
     
  39. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    That's your opinion but its not widely shared.



     
  40. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I don't see anyone swimming to cuba.
     
  41. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    That's because there are plenty of flights to Kuba.



     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012
  42. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    are you going to keep leaning on a war that was 70 years ago?

    all AMERICAN soldiers have done since is butt in where they weren't welcome or invited with universally tragic and pointless consequences.

    (with no disrespect to the soldiers themselves, all a good soldier does is carry out their orders to the best of their ability, it's hardly their fault)
     
  43. CFreeborn

    CFreeborn New User

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    I read page one of this post and skipped to the end to comment, but it seems the original topic is long gone...
     
  44. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I'd be more then happy to have them all come home and let the rest of the world take care of itself. I'm sure the result will be as peaceful as it's always historically been.
     
  45. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I see your cap key does work. Have fun shopping at havana macy's for Christmas, maybe you can stay and captain a team there.
     
  46. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    Won't make a blind bit of difference, the USA started every conflict in which it is currently engaged. Fact.
     
  47. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    We solved the original problem a long time ago.

    You can basically advise the server that you think he's foot faulting and if recalcitrant you should call an official.

    What you can't do as a receiver is think that you can officiate foot faults as if they were line calls, which is an all too widespread view.



     
  48. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Really, so you think George Bush attacked the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and tried to attack the White House? Terrorism does not exist around the world. Iraq did not attack Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. You need to read some history books.
     
  49. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You got your history wrong, but there is no politics allowed around here, in case you forgot about that rule as well.
     
  50. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    No idea what you are talking about, this thread is about ff'ing, you cannot officiate freedom of speech unless you are a certified rhetorician. What dept at macys do you officiate at, the historical revisionism book section?
     

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