Calling footfaults is important

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by sureshs, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. Oski10s

    Oski10s New User

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    Okay, by your assertion then you probably don't call balls out because you'd rather beat the opponent with your return than win the point by watching the ball go out? Why would you hope someone's ball goes out instead of beating them exclusively with winners?

    You wouldn't be playing on my team either, enjoy the bush leagues.
     
  2. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    A foot fault is a technical judgement in relation to lines both real and imaginary.

    A line call is a judgement made in real time with regard to a real line by the person closest to that line.

    Any and all quoted rules acknowledge this difference so there is no point of comparison.
     
  3. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Focus on foot faults real or perceived, not tennis.
     
  4. maverick1981

    maverick1981 New User

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    man you guys are intense.

    a few things I will note:

    1. we ARE in the competitive tennis talk, and as a new member, i thought i was talking about competitive tennis & the guys & girls who play that way (such as following rules and playing under them)

    2. if you really are some weekend hack, theres nothing wrong with that, thats your stone to grind

    3. if you ARE a weekend hack, maybe taking some lessons will help you play the game the right way, ie - following real rules, not only for the benefit of the other people you play with, but for yourself

    4. Foot faults are a tiny piece of the weekend-hack puzzle, but a very important piece. I dont think anyone here could say that when anticipating a serve return and getting ready to demolish your odd, footfaulted, quircky spasm of a motion, that we are only watching your feet. Quite the contrary, I am trying to watch the ball and anticipate my moves, that ball being your toss that sometimes winds up 10 feet away from you - behind you - or bouncing nearly 1/2 way to the service line. When you hit the ball a foot or so in front of the service line or to the opposite side of the T, after all the above has happened, that is not tennis.

    5. reiterating all the above, under competitive tennis talk & adult/tournament talk...I am certainly not that guy calling a foot fault lol...I cant think in any instance of my tennis life having ever called one. That said, I have never witnessed such a lack of instruction with rules or gameplay. Ill beat you anyways, and I dont need a foot fault call to massage the score.
     
  5. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I'd rather bust you for a foot-fault then win the match. That makes me feel good.
     
  6. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The problem arises in competitive tennis where there is no official. Some people think the receiver can police foot faults the way they do lines, but the rules don't comply with their wishes.
     
  7. maverick1981

    maverick1981 New User

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    If i didnt get a good look at the ball...i give the opponent the point. If i cant make a call on my side of the net, its not a question for me; your point or its to your advantage. I only expect the same. Expecting a hacker or even a solid player to call their own FF...you guys have to be kidding me.
     
  8. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    In an unofficiated match in order to call footfaults I have to choose between watching the ball so I can return the serve or watching my opponents feet and hoping that they touch the line. I can call a ball out just by watching it like I normally would. I'll always pick playing tennis and I'll leave it to officials to call footfaults.

    Unless you play in college, satellites, or cash tournaments then you play in the bush leagues too- you simply are oblivious to it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  9. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    So you admit it, your shining red star in your icon is there in order to manipulate macy's stock higher. "Locus classicus", where did you learn to talk like that, from Saul Alinsky at North Western?
     
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Should we setup a hotline which people can call confidentially and report FFs?
     
  11. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I believe in astroturfing. Real people are filthy foot faulters. And I like to rent people to cheer at my matches. It makes me feel very GOP.



     
  12. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Yes, good idea, maybe Bart would like to take this on pro bono.
     
  13. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, the hotline will go straight to the Pentagon from where a drone will be dispatched by order of the POTUS to hover over the court and kill the 'perp'.
     
  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I have opened the Lifestyle Adjustment Center in a secluded property with resort-style amenities. It should not be confused with Rehab or addiction treatment facilities. The Lifestyle Adjustment Center is a completely confidential facility dedicated to curing high net-worth tennis-playing clients of foot fault addiction. Our doctors use traditional and modern techniques to change your serve a little at a time, and in a month, most patients do not foot fault any more. Treatment consists of daily video-recorded clinics, motivational seminars, healthy organic food, and electric shock therapy for the brain.

    Ask me for more details if interested.
     
  15. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    We have a meeting of the minds, I will volunteer to personally fly on board the drone and be a spotter, relaying info to onground officials. The word "flagrant" will be expunged from the tennis vocabulary. Bart can be the pilot.
     
  16. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    Bartelby,

    He was starting behind the baseline. He was moving into the court to hit the serve.

    I take it you have never been on the receiving end of a 4.0 or 4.5 serve that was hit from inside the baseline. Sure, it's not as bad when a 2.0 or even a 3.0 does it, but the higher level players that still employ it to their advantage are definitely winning points off their illegal serves.
     
  17. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I have one person who is like this, but the guy's very nice and completely oblivious to what he does.

    As I have no chance of beating him I don't wrorry about it, but I'm surprised that others don't.

    You are entitled to warn people in any event under any circumstance all anyone is arguing is that you can't as a receiver go around issuing penalties.

    It seems to me that the various associations want foot faulters to be advised and re-educated unless an official is on hand with a penalty.

    People don't like this but it seems a more peaceful way to approach the issue rather than wiping out the 'perp'.






     
  18. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    But the rules clearly state that if no official is available, you may call flagrant foot faults. I don't understand what is so unclear about it.

    I freely admit that I can't see if someone has their toe touching the line during their serve, if I want to hit a return. But I am talking about flagrant violations. To me, someone stepping a foot or more inside the court to serve is just as guilty of violating the rules as someone who calls a ball that landed a foot or more inside the line "out".

    These are the rules of tennis. You don't get to choose which rules to abide by, and which ones to ignore. If you are going to choose to foot fault flagrantly and continue to do so after being warned, why I am not allowed three or four serves, or to touch the net after a shot and still claim the point?

    Loss of a point from a foot fault is the penalty for foot faulting. No other penalty is issued. Only the loss of that serve, not point, game, match.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  19. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Its not unclear, but it is a last resort to call flagrant foot faults.

    The reality is that what is 'flagrantly' clear to you is not necessarily clear to the foot faulter.

    So the upshot is probably a full scale argument.

    Everyone who plays non-officiated tennis comes across people who call lines to their own advantage.

    I have never met anyone who admits to doing this, however, but there are a few examples where foot faulters do genuinely not realize the full extent of their problem.


    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  20. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    Most of the people I have mentioned it to were unaware they were doing it, and made strides to correct it.

    The issue I stated above was one of the few instances where I am pretty sure the guy knew he was doing it. He is a 4.0 that had just become accustomed to getting away with it. His argument about my team not being able to call such a flagrant foot fault because it was on their side of the court is ridiculous. How can you not know that you are making contact with the ball one to two feet inside the baseline on your serve?

    The retaliation of calling a time violation and then a foot fault that clearly didn't happen further my suspicions that he knew he was doing it. It's just that nobody had ever had the guts to call him on it.

    That being said, I will never know for sure because he will never admit to it.

    I have been at the net in a few doubles matches where I am sure I saw a foot fault, but did not call it. It wasn't flagrant, so I give them the benefit of the doubt. If their toe touched the line, that is not my call. But if they are progressing into the court a good distance before striking the ball, I can sure call that.

    It seems odd to me that the other teams in the league didn't say anything to them about it. I will check and see if they did. If that is the case, he surely knew he was doing it. He was using it as an advantage, and that is cheating.

    We can go on and on and debate this issue until December 21 if we want. Some will say it's no big deal, others will say it is.

    If my partner was flagrantly foot faulting and I saw it, I would warn him, so why shouldn't I warn the other team if they are not playing by the rules? Sure, it's recreational tennis. Sure, there is no big prize. But, it is the integrity of the game. If they want to win (or can only win) by cheating, are they really playing competitive tennis? Does the fact that it is a "recreational" league make it a noncompetitive affair?

    When I step onto a tennis court for a league match, I am a competitor. I am guessing that the person or persons across the net from me are as well. I am friendly and polite, but I am there to compete. If they are not there for the competition, why keep score? Let's just flip a coin and decide who won the match and hit balls for two hours, never worrying about who is ahead or behind, never worrying if a shot even goes over the net. There will be no foot faults, because nobody will be serving. We will just start each rally by someone putting a ball in play and have a jolly time not competing.
     
  21. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    This is a pretty ridiculous statement. Plenty of people with huge serves make contact a foot inside the baseline and they don't come anywhere close to footfaulting. The rest of your post shows just reiterates how delusional you are.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  22. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    To clarify, I am talking about someone that has their foot planted well inside the court before they hit the ball.
     
  23. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    To clarify- you are a person who cares more about watching people's feet than playing tennis. Its cool if you have a foot fetish- thats just not how I roll.
     
  24. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    To clarify, I am not.
     
  25. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    That is totally laughable. You are 'That Guy' and you have already admitted it.

     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  26. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    This is a SPLENDID concept Sureshs! Can I be one of the instructors? I would like to specialize in administering the electric shock therapy. Hard core FF'ers may need advanced habit-breaking techniques like trephining. May I also suggest an electrified baseline, a quick-sand pit and a cliff drop. There could be celebrity officiators like John Mcenroe.
     
  27. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Thankfully the treatment for people who are compelled to call footfaults is much more simple. They are simply not invited back to the team and people decline to play against them in pickup matches. If they eventually understand that it makes them "that guy" and loosen up then people will voluntarily associate with them, otherwise they simply become irrelevant except in their own minds.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  28. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    you don't get it, do you ?

    you're a cheat, same as if you call 'in' balls 'out.

    you get away with it because you play low level junk tennis where FF are the least of the technical failings of the participants. Apparently, you think this makes it ok to just do what you want.

    I'm just glad I don't have to play with people like you.
     
  29. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The FF rule involves also calling imaginary lines and it is a far more technical rule to enforce and should be left to officials to enforce.

    If people start in front of the line or launch themselves too far into the court then warning and advice and recourse to officials are all possible.

    Foot faults are due usually to technical faults with service and are not simple cases of cheating at line calls.

    If someone cheats on a line call you have no right of over rule, so why would you think the receiver should be allowed to penalize servers just on their say so?




     
  30. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    See, tommy, you're just plain nasty and you get your jollies from hectoring other people from the bully-pulpit.

    McEnroe played in officiated games and he still wanted his biased calls to prevail over unbiased, if sometimes incorrect, ones.


    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  31. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    Yes, I will watch a known flagrant foot faulting opponent the first few serves and will warn him. If it continues, I will get an official. If none is available, I will call the flagrant foot faults. That's what the rules say. If I was guilty of it, I would want to know.

    But, I am more interested in playing tennis. I am more interested in competing on equal terms than watching someone's feet. However, if they are not following the rules of the game, it is not a fair match. I have no problem losing to a superior player, I do have a problem losing to someone who refuses to follow the established rules of the game. I choose to play fair, why can't they?

    As I stated earlier, if you are playing competitive tennis, you may not simply choose which rules you want to obey. If my choice is I to hit first serves until I get one in, not the standard first and second, but as many as I want, are you gonna want to play me?

    If there weren't so many people who have gotten away with flagrant foot faults for so long, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
     
  32. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Long before you get to call foot faults you will have had to come to some sort of understanding with your opponent or all hell will break lose!
     
  33. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    You have totally shown us what kind of player you are. You don't care about returning serve- you prefer watching people's feet rather than returning serve you would rather win by watching someone's feet rather than playing tennis. There really isn't anything more to say.

    Maybe it isn't your fault that you are "that guy", maybe it was your environment or your genetics. I'm just glad I was able to help you become aware of it now so you didn't have to go through live oblivious to it and wondering why people treat you differently.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  34. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Not true, actually two tennis buddies I'm currently doing a foot-faulting intervention with play with me on a regular basis. THEY CALL ME TO PLAY WITH THEM! They both THANKED me for pointing it out to them. They don't want to be "THAT GUY" who FF's! Maybe it's the circles you roll with, as "they" say birds of a feather....

    The absurdity of this all is how easy it is to fix the problem. Before you serve, you look down at your feet and IF you are standing on the white line, you move back a few inches, then everyone is happy and you are not a CHEATER--as Judge Judy or Norm Christ says, IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE!

    Let me throw another homily in there as long as I'm taking my good time to give you a free education, "Your enemy who tells you the truth, is a better friend then a friend who lies to you."
     
  35. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Well I'd be more then happy to play with him, he sounds like an up-standing intelligent tennis mate, who has taken the time to learn the rules of the sport he likes to play. The match would not consist of a hundred and one petty annoyances deviating from the way the game was designed to be played.

    It's not very hard to look at your opponents feet as they set up to serve. With a modicum of decent vision you can see if their feet are obliterating the line. Peripheral vision is another aspect of vision that can be developed through close observation.

    On the topic of "watching someone's feet", foot-fettishism not withstanding, it's a good idea to observe the line-up of your opponent's footsies. It will give you a lot of good info about the direction they hope to hit the ball--this is rather advanced. I watch pro-players feet a lot, especially a master of movement like Roger Federer. His footwork is a hallmark of his genius and I would recommend watching them to help propel a player to the next level, after learning the fundamentals of stroke production technique.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  36. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Your anecdotes are as false as your opinions, Tommy.


    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  37. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    Flagrancies

    This is my first venture into a foot fault thread. I suspect most all of them have gone similarly.

    Playing with guys intraclub, it's well known who the flagrant foot faulters are. They've been made aware of these flagrancies. The vast majority do nothing to fix it. I wonder if the folks who argue that "it's just a technicality" also fall into that category.

    It strikes me that those who do it live the rest of their lives that way, too. They're "entitled" to special privilege. :)

    My experience has also been that if they ever *do* have to play by the rules, they completely fall apart (as others have pointed out) and can't come close to getting their serves in - because they've come to believe that they *need* that special extra advantage - in *spite* of the fact that they claim loudly that there *is* no advantage gained. :)

    I recently matched up with a player as a doubles partner at a national age group tournament. Our opponents had seen him play a singles match before our first round doubles match and knew that he was a flagrant foot faulter and they had an official ready before our match. You guessed it. He was a basket case after the first foot fault call.

    If our tennis "culture" hadn't developed in such a manner as to allow this sort of cheating - making anyone who dares mention the term "foot fault" out to be the bad guy, my poor, struggling doubles partner could have been spared this pain. :) I can't tell you how many tosses he had to catch. We had to go into a therapy session to help him through his rash of double faults. He clearly had *never* previously made an attempt to serve without foot faulting.

    What I like to do with foot faulters (at the club) is to first ask whether they know that they're doing it. I next ask whether they care. The combinations of answers and how they deal with the questions is large and gets interesting. :) In a tournament match, I'll quietly point out to them privately on the changeover that they're stepping into the court. Yes, it's very easy to see as receiver's partner if the server is flagrantly foot faulting.

    Do you "anti-foot-fault-callers" foot fault yerselves??
     
  38. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    ^^^No. I don't FF and never have. Unless there's an Rediculous advantage it's no worth the bother. At the 4.5 level I've only seen one flagerant foot-faulter worth mentioning.
     
  39. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    except our man spot reveals quite clearly in his posts that he doesn't care, and has no intention of addressing the technical faults in his serve because this is a rule (in his world) that doesn't count.

    as I said before, just learn to serve! you will have a better serve anyway if you aren't wandering around under the ball toss all the time!
     
  40. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Learn to serve, yes.

    Is is it cheating, yes.

    Does it matter, most likely not.

    Is the form of cheating that really matters line calling, yes.

    Will foot faulters be penalised when they enter officiated matches, yes.

    Is it up to you to either assume the role of mentor or judge, most likely not.


    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  41. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    Good god this thread is still going? Let it go, peeps. Agree to disagree or whatever.
     
  42. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You could say this about 90% of threads and don't get me started on posts like the steam one where people are getting excited about something they haven't seen and that they'll end up disliking.

    The thread keeps going because the character of some people who obsess about foot faults comes out in their reaction to a more tolerant approach.



     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  43. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    90% of 'posts' (threads) peter out well before the 300 post mark. This one should have too.

    But whatever, you can say the same thing you've already said 14 times again (and again after that) I guess if you want. It just seems pretty pointless by now.
     
  44. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    I don't know about that for the simple reason that I did research on whether there are rules for non-officiated matches and I've found out that most people's attempts to make themselves the judges of rules that come from officiated tennis is just plain wrong. Most threads have nothing new in them other than opinion, usually by someone with something to sell from Wilson or Volkl.


    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  45. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I agree to disagree.

    Foot fault size matters.

    Call a man for foot faulting and you may have gotten into his head--teach him how not to foot fault and you've done the world of tennis a favor.


    I want to be #300.


    It's good to be the king.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  46. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    You can call a foot fault any time you like but just don't think you can penalize anyone.
     
  47. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    Is calling a fault penalizing someone? If it is, then I penalize my opponents every time their serve is out.
     
  48. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Only the server calls the score, so after the server puts you in your place he can call the correct score.
     
  49. yourmailman

    yourmailman Rookie

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    So by your reckoning, if the server calls the wrong score, you would just let it stand?
     
  50. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    It's your opinion but if you want an argument you can, but the correct score made according to the rules will stand - the receiver is not an official.
     

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