Can´t believe how underrated Neale Fraser is

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by kiki, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    A man that beats Laver on a five sets Wimbledon final as well as winning Forest Hills and Kooyong is certainly an all time great.

    Even moreso if he adds one of the best DC records as both a player and a captain in an era where DC was paramount.

    One of the best left handed S&V players of all time, with a mighty and wicked first serve, extremely complete net play and a great FH stroke.Only his BH was subpar.

    He was respected by the likes of Hoad,Rosewall,Laver or Emerson.And the best amateur of 1960-61 just before Laver stroke into it in 1962.

    Any memories of this all time australian legend? any SERIOUS reason why a guy like that is so much untalken of here while tons of whisppering around non major winners like Segura and Nusslein are spreadt over?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2014
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  2. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    He never won the singles title at Kooyong, though (runner up in 1957,1959 and 1960).

    I guess he just got swallowed up by the adulation that followed the likes of Emerson, Laver, Rosewall, Hoad etc. most of whom had longer careers than him which extended into the TV age so that they became much more known and familiar to the fans and the public. He was a good, solid player with good, solid results but just nothing as spectacular or crowd-pleasing as the exploits of the other Aussie greats of his generation.
     
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  3. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    My dad and grandpa would always mention him. Fraser was awesome. always mentioned in the pantheon, so I think of him as rated. Not overly and not underly.
    Great guy, remarkable at singles and dubs. Australian Davis Cup hero. Not much better than that!
     
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  4. DMP

    DMP Semi-Pro

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    I think you hit the nail on the head. He didn't have the tennis longevity of the others, probably because he didn't see it as a career. He was the son of a judge and I think he went into a profession. So although he was a very good player, and beat Laver, he didn't have (or need?) the drive that eg Rosewall, Laver, Hoad had, because for them it was tennis or nothing.

    Which continues to be true. There is very little between the very best players at their best, either now or in the past. What distinguishes the really great players is their drive to continue winning, time after time, and the ability to produce their tennis when it really matters.
     
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  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Fraser was also a big fighter who did some good clutch time job at the 1960 Wimbledon.He saved several mp during his QF match againts Buch Bucholtz and went onto win the title.
     
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  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I'm already 99. Will I yet experience the day when you concede that Segura and Nüsslein were much better players than Fraser?

    Please note: Winning a pro major was more difficult than winning a Grand Slam tournament!!
     
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  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I am not sure they could touch Neale on grass.But I concede both would probably beat him easily on clay and in Segura´s case, maybe also in wood.:)
     
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  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Like Kodes, he is a three slams winner.2 US Open ( against former Wimbledon holder Alex Olmedo...and against Rod Laver) and 1 Wimbledon ( against Laver)

    Kodes also has three majors having beaten in the process Newcombe,Ashe,Smith,Nastase,Roche...

    isn´t that good enough for you? is it only " solid"?

    Now there is a lot of junk about one timers like Chang, Roddick,Del Potro,That guy from switzerland ( he recently beat Nadal..Neale is the only man on history able to beat the GOAT Twice at major finals¡¡¡¡¡¡) and so much junk about no timers like Marcelo Rios¡¡¡

    Sometimes I doubt any poster here except a few ones has any slight or, as you say " solid" idea about this game.:lol:
     
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  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Only one guy has been able to beat the rocket back to back in major finals:

    Neale Fraser at the 1960 Wimbledon and US Open championships.

    Is it good enough for you, blasphemists?
     
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  10. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    ^bad azs, man. Laver learned a ton from fraser.
     
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  11. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    I never meant to be dismissive of Fraser in any way. He was a multiple Slam champion and so maybe the terms 'good' and 'solid' were it a bit too condescending and understated for a player of his obvious calibre. I should have said 'great' instead of 'good'.

    But I stand by my other point that his greatest achievements occurred largely before the TV age got into full swing and his contemporaries,Laver and Rosewall and later Newcombe became the poster boys for Australian tennis as the 1960s wore on into the '70s. They became more familiar to the fans and the public. Fraser just got left behind. But we tennis buffs always remember a great player when we've known one!
     
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  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    OK, I agree very much with you.I think Fraser,Emmo and Stolle were too much ahead of their time because, as you well say, when TV got big, it was all Laver,Rosewall and Newcombe , with a bit of Roche
     
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  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, kiki...You live in a glorified amateur world.

    Segura and Nüsslein would have beaten Fraser on grass. Do you know that Segura won the 1957 Australian Pro with wins over Gonzalez and Sedgman, and Nüsslein won the pro/am challenge 1935 against Allison who was America's No.1 player and Hanne's pupil then?

    Nüsslein was almost equal with Budge in their legendary 1939 Wembley encounter on wood...
     
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  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, am I a blasphemist when saying that Fraser was not a really great player?

    Please note: Neale is not God! Not even a top player. At the most he was about No. 9 or 10 in his best years...
     
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  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Mainad, Citing Fraser in the same sentence with Laver and Rosewall is just curious!
     
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  16. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, TV broadcasting has nothing to do with the fact that L,R,N,and R. are regarded much above F,E,and S by all experts. The former are just much greater than the latter..
     
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  17. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Why? Fraser was a multi-Slam winning champion like them although he didn't win as many. He was part of the same generation of talented Aussie players who burst onto the tennis scene in the 1950s and 60s. It's just that he faded out earlier than they did and did not survive into the TV age which made popular stars of the likes of Laver, Rosewall and Newcombe.

    I'm curious why you think he doesn't belong in the same sentence?
     
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  18. DMP

    DMP Semi-Pro

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    Actually he did survive into the TV age, because his Wimbledon final is my earliest clear memory of watching tennis (in glorious B&W!). I agree he is clearly part of that generation you talk about, and I think in terms of talent he was up there, probably ahead of Stolle and maybe even Roche. It was more that he didn't stick around and generate a body of tennis achievement. But watching the extracts we can still see reminds us what a classy player he was.
     
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  19. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Fraser famously never won the singles at the Australian Championships. He reached the final 3 times, and only 1 of those was in Melbourne (1957). 1959 was in Adelaide and 1960 was in Brisbane. The 5-set match that Laver and Fraser famously had was in Brisbane in the 1960 Australian Championships final. Laver won from 2 sets down and was match point down in the fourth set. Laver won 5-7, 3-6, 6-3, 8-6, 8-6.

    Fraser's win over Laver in the 1960 Wimbledon final was in 4 sets (6-4, 3-6, 9-7, 7-5), and Fraser's 1960 US Championships final win over Laver was in straight sets (6-4, 6-4, 9-7).
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014
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  20. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, fraser was excellent. imho, his career whelms me. Not underly. Not overly. He excelled where he could. He had a beer or two. Influential player, great guy.

    Off the too of my head, you know who is underrated? Dwight davis. Richard sears. Vic seixas. Tony roche. Jean borotra. Pierre barthes. Ron holmberg. Budge patty. Ted shroeder. Adrian quist. Ash cooper. Mal anderson. Gar mulloy. Jack crawford.
     
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  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Oh¡ Don´t be harsh to Bobby One, he is 99 and losing his great memory as well.He has a serious intelectual problem into conceiving that any other aussie whose names wasn´t Muscles or Pockets ( Don´t tell him I ever mentioned that nickname) can make a slight shadow of the great Rosewall.
     
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  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Allison? c´mon Bobby one...are you mad that Neale deprived your boy Buch of a Wimbledon semifinal?
     
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  23. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    If Bobby One is 99 he can tell us what Tilden and Vines and Perry were like on court. Suzanne Lenglen and Helen Wills Moody as well. He must have gone to see them play at some point! :)
     
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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    he was too busy on the battle field.
     
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  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Mainad, Does Wawrinka belong in the same sentence with Federer and Nadal??
     
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  26. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    DMP, Fraser more talented than Roche?? Kohlschreiber more talented than Murray?
     
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  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, This is your worst posting. It's time for you to enter an old age home!

    My memory was never (even not at 50) that Fraser was a great player. But I still remember Aussie greats or giants like Sedgman, Hoad and Laver...
     
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  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Even at 97 you should know that Wilmer Allison was a great player.

    Who is "Buch"? I only know that Buch is the German word for book...

    If you mean Butch Buchholz: He was a stronger player than your darling!

    Butch lead 2:1 sets against Fraser but had to retire!
     
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  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Mainad, Yes, f. i. I can tell you that Tilden was a greater player than Federer...
     
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  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I only fight in unbloody battles against strange posters on TT...
     
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  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    for whichever reason it may be,Fraser´s recovery against Butcholz is considered one of the best ever comebacks in the history and oral memory of greats like Bellamy,Tingay or Maskell.
     
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  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I guess you confuse that match with another one, maybe with the SF fivesetter at Forest Hills when Laver beat Buchholz after trailing 0:2 sets.

    The Wimbledon encounter comprised only three and a half sets. At 15:15 in the fourth set Butch was forced to give w.o. because of cramps. Thus it was not a glorious win of Neale. Furthermore Buchholz was only 19, almost 20 then...

    Getting cramps even a 1967 Laver would have lost to Fraser...
     
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  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You are the walking encyclopedia Bobbyone, not me
     
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  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    edited post
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
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  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Bobby...when did Fraser turn pro? what were his achievements as a pro?
     
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  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Thanks that you responded friendly.

    Regarding recalling tennis data and results I cannot compete with you! Have you even place for non-tennis results in your brain? ;-)

    I'm not a walking tennis encyclopedia. This time I just walked one metre to my book board and found the results in Bud's marvellous encyclopedia...
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
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  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, if we exclude open era when Neale played some matches probably as an independent pro and "hobby" player ( saw him losing to Parun in the 1975 Wimbledon 3-6, 2-6, 7-9) Fraser never turned pro when being a full-time player.
     
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  38. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Fraser won the U.S. Championships at Forest Hills twice and won Wimbledon. Was the #1 player in 1959 and 60 and won the doubles in all 4 slam tournaments.
    Probably not noticed much because he never joined the pro tour and so had long disappeared from people's minds when Open tennis started.
    I have some pictures somewhere that my aunt took of him beating Laver at Forest Hills.
     
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  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NLBwell, you seem to read many kiki posts...

    Fraser was almost forgotten only because he virtually retired already in 1962.

    The pros were almost unnoticed, not the amateurs!
     
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  40. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Not really clear what you mean by your post but, to clarify, I believe Fraser is underrated now because unlike Rosewall and Laver he wasn't around when tennis became big and he had no accomplishments in the open era because he quit playing instead of turning pro and continuing to play. Nobody today has really heard of him.
     
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  41. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I seem to remember the BBC doing an interview with Neale Fraser many years ago during a Wimbledon rain delay. It was mostly about the 1960 Wimbledon final, where he beat Rod Laver, and how Laver wouldn't lose another match at Wimbledon until 1970, when Britain's Roger Taylor beat Laver.

    I can't remember the year I saw this, though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
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  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NLBwell, Even if Fraser had turned pro he would be rather forgotten because he would have been a second class pro just like Ayala and MacKay who never won something significant in the pro ranks.

    Underrated? At least we can say that Neale is vastly overrated by kiki...
     
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  43. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Ayala,Mc Kay and Butcholz/Giammalve were the second fiddle pros, used basically for draw´s filling purposals.Honest, decent journeymen.But Neale was something else, you know...
     
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  44. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    unfortunately that feat would be The Nadal beating the Great One
     
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  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, I don't want to disturb your dreams with your darling...
     
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  46. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Fraser more talented than maybe even Roche ? :shock:

    Roche was considered heir-apparent to Laver. He was that good and that talented. Sorry, but it isn't even close IMO.
     
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  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    we talk about winning, not raw talent.Roche enjoyed his talent...and Fraser his winning
     
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  48. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You know the joke in the pros?

    It was at the beginning of big James Bond Sucess, the middle 60´s.

    Butcholz had a presentation card that read:
    " My name is Butch.Journeyman Butch".
     
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  49. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Fraser enjoyed his winning as Emerson did: knowing they did not win the big ones...
     
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  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, A journeyman who is better than a master (Fraser)? Yes, in the old tennis circuit it was possible...
     
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