Can a good rec player hit a SINGLE winner as good as a pro?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by tank_job, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I would say SURESH cannot hit a winner like a player a full level above him.
    But not all tennis players are the same, are they?
    Some go on to better than 4.0 levels, while other's only reach low 3.5's.
    Some even get better, at least college level, but are still rec players because they don't make a living from hitting tennis balls.
    And some guys in the top 300 ATP Pro are not PROS, but guys trying to break into the PRO rankings. A pro makes all his money from tennis.
     
  2. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    No, a pro is someone who has accepted money in a tournament.
     
  3. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    I think that's a wrong statement. I can enroll to a local tournament that might have some prize money I still can't give up my day job.
     
  4. JW10S

    JW10S Hall of Fame

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    Not true. A player can accept money in a tournament that just covers their expenses and still retain their amateur statis. I did it in college. Someone who won $50 by getting to the quarters of a local/sectional event is not a pro.
     
  5. KineticChain

    KineticChain Professional

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    I found 5 quarters on a court once, and accepted them as prize money.
     
  6. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    And of course, besides what constitutes a PRO level player and HIS shots, what is a "good rec player"?
    Is he a 4.0 who once played over 15 A/Open level tourneys, having more wins than losses?
    Is he a current 5.0, who's trying to qualify for a pro event, but works at the local restaurant as a busboy?
    Or how about the Div11 singles player who hasn't touched a racket in 3 years, choosing instead to play basketball for his exercise?
    And my other bud says he's playing recreationally, a former #2 for HarvardU 2 years ago. Is HE a rec player.? He IS good.
    And of course, there's this local 6' tall contractor, a recently bumped 4.0, who has no winners at my level, has WON in 4.0 league play, and is always looking to improve. NO winners at my level, which is 4.0.
     
  7. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I would also suggest that rec players who sometime hit at the same speed as a pro hit it with the wrong form, i.e., biomechanics.
     
  8. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is how Universities determine who is an eligible college player
     
  9. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Why would you assume (there's that word again...ASS U and ME, in other words, all of us) a "good rec player" would have flawed form?
    Do YOU have incorrect form?
    Case in point. Remember the Magician of whatever? The big Swede with the big rightie serve? He's a "good rec player" in my book. He can serve like a pro, but he can't make any money playing tennis like a pro does.
     
  10. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    If there are PROS....
    And there are good and bad rec players....
    What do you call the guys in between making money at tennis and just playing tennis for fun?
     
  11. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    A winner hit by a pro can be a mediocre shot hit against an opponent who has been run out of place, or it can be again a mediocre shot hit from an advantageous court position. OP never said it had to be some insane shot.
     
  12. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    How about reversing the question.
    Can a pro hit a single winner as good as rec player?:confused: I bet they can't, 'cos they can't emulate our weird styles.:)
     
  13. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    Let me take this thread another direction since we're just having some fun here...

    A rec player cannot hit as good as a pro because to a rec player those swings would be considered "wild" whereas they would be normal to a pro.

    To contrast this, a "wild swing" by a pro is upwards of 100mph on a ground stroke such as a Monfils/DelPo/Almagro forehand, whereas a wild 100mph swing for a rec player would probably be a very hard second serve off the dampener into the wrong side of the court or possibly into the spectators. But, both the pro and the rec player would look at their string bed as if it was the rackets fault on that second serve.
     
  14. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    If the question is "can a rec player hit a high quality winner like a pro?", I think the answer is yes.

    Years ago, we had this really tall (and wide) guy on our team. He was a weak 4.0 at best. But, he had a fairly good service motion and just hit the hell out of it. He occassional would bring in a serve about 120+ MPH with a little spin. It would just explode off the court and hit the back fence about 4-5 feet in the air. The problem was he would try this every 1st serve and only make about 2 out of 10.

    So, yes, his best serve was very similar to a pro winner but pros hit even a little better and they get it in 65%+ instead of 20%-.
     
  15. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I already said that .................
     
  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Rec players cannot even hit like themselves from minute to minute
     
  17. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly Ray and anyway, rec players will at times hit insanely great shots too.
     
  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    There is a strong tendency on this forum to think of pro tennis players as beyond mortal,
    and they forget there are many rec players who are sometimes
    nearly twice the athlete as some good pros. As rec players, these excellent
    athletes will often have a shot or 2 that are as good as just about anyone, but
    not the complete game of a touring pro who has devoted much of his life to the sport.
     
  19. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

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  20. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    But you probably hit a note now and then that is just like her!:???:
     
  21. anubis

    anubis Hall of Fame

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    IMO teflontom already answered this question a long time ago. No, rec players can't hit like a pro, even by accident. It's so much more than just swinging hard. It's spin, placement, pace, everything. You can't "accidentally" hit the ball perfectly.

    You'd have to do all of the following, more or less accidentally (because if you could control it, you wouldn't be a rec player), ALL AT THE SAME TIME:

    --form the perfect kinetic chain
    --time the shot so you hit the ball on the rise
    --get that perfect racquet lag so the racquet whips around at two or three times the speed of your arm
    --generate enough bat speed to successfully bend poly strings enough to both trampoline and impart 2000+ RPMs of spin
    --never take your eye off the ball the entire time
    --keep the ball in play
    --anticipate where the ball will be next and be there before the ball is

    all of that, plus a lot more that I don't know about b/c I'm not a pro, would be required to hit a prostyle winner.
     
  22. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I dont' know man. I just hit the ball really hard and it paints the baseline corner going 75+ mph and hits the fence. Even Djokovic can't do that sometimes, like yesterday when he hit the ball into the stand. No amateurs I know at the courts do that.
     
  23. Jay_The_Nomad

    Jay_The_Nomad Professional

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    Not all pros have that federer vision ball tracking. It is actually quite common to see players look up before the ball even hits the string bed.

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]


     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    And you think a pro does that on every winner??
    Not by a long shot.

    They hit plenty of avg, run of the mill winners in most matches.
     
  25. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    Are you for real?? Speak for yourself and don't put everyone into the same bag.
    You sound more like someone who is constantly seeking controversy.
     
  26. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I do believe Suresh is a 4.0 level player, but one without the big shots needed to hit winners.
    I know lots of guys who win with consistency, grinding, running, and outlasting their more powerful opponents.
    They basically use their legs and their will power to win.
    They don't hit winners.
    So Suresh is correct, for himself.
    Unfortunately, not everyone plays the game of tennis like Suresh.
     
  27. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

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    my understandin of the question was 'can a rec player hit a winner as as good as a pro'

    not 'do pros hit winners that are as bad as rec players'

    pros hit plenty of average shots, some of which happen 2 be winners. this is not news. to me the question in the OP was if a rec player can fluke a 'perfect' shot. imo not really. the best shots pros hit cant be executed without extremely good technique
     
  28. NTRPolice

    NTRPolice Semi-Pro

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    This 100%

    People on this forum think that pro players are immortal and rec players are trash. Seems to be a common theme.

    Rec player = Lots of training and little ability.
    Rec player = Lots of ability and little training.
    Rec player = Lots of ability and lots of training.

    Pro player = Lots of ability, training, and RESULTS.

    The only difference are the real results that pro players get. If you are not getting any real results you are not a pro not matter how good you are. There are a lot of juniors, high school and college goofballs who think because they're best in state that they can be a pro. Sure, they may be good and able, but they are not "pros" unless they get results.

    While it is true the circumstances are different in a pro level rally and consistency is an issue, their "kinetic linking" is not any more special than ours as rec players, if you're talking about someone who isnt completely "goofy" and is naturally athletic.

    The only merit to their arguments is that the average pace of rallies in high level tennis are a lot faster, and thus harder to make the shot over a "feed" and their level of consistency is a lot higher.

    TL;DR

    Get two talented rec players together. You will see some amazing shots. Not everyone who is 3.0-4.0 is a total scrub. lol.
     
  29. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    My point was that rec players have infinite variety - each shot looks a little different from the previous one. Repeatability is the characteristic of a pro.
     
  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    There might be a fluke I suppose, but it would be with the wrong biomechanics. So, both from form and the results, rec players cannot hit like a pro.
     
  31. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    Sureshs. you need to stop confusing your technique with every other rec player..

    as 5263 points out, plenty of decent rec players have some very big shots but incomplete games.

    I would back my 1HBH to hit a pro level passing shot at least once a set, but not my FH or serve, for example.
     
  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is not the point. The passing shot has to be capable of being hit when playing against a pro.
     
  33. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    But a good rec player will never get the chance to hit with a pro.
    Too many good Q guys, 5.5's to 6's, in the way.
    Since us rec guys tend more towards 4 and 4.5 tops, it's hard to qualify for the first round of a real tournament. Q's sometimes takes 4 rounds, and you gotta win them all.
     
  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is why I said "capable of."

    Forget about pros. I don't see one adult player in the club who can hit one shot comparable to the top juniors in the club. When playing on adjacent courts, one looks like a slow motion movie compared to the other. Not one shot has comparable speed, spin or trajectory. Not one shot makes the same sound. Not one body position or footwork compares. The entire level is low in every respect.

    This is what I see. Of course there may be 1 adult in the club who may hit one or two shots like the juniors once in a while against inferior competition, I grant that.

    But pro level? Not a chance.
     
  35. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    At my courts, the former No2 of Harvard shows up, as does the former No1 of CalPoly, and a former #4 of SanDiegoState. Those guys are all under 30, bigger and stronger now than then.
    And they are good rec players.
     
  36. tennishotdog

    tennishotdog Rookie

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    agree with sureshs
    i know this is anecdotal but i've seen thousands of rec players ranging from 3.0 to high 4.5 and never once have i seen anyone hit a winner that even comes close to normal rally shots that the top pros hit let alone their 100mph winners.

    and i've seen thousands of youtube videos as well and have never witnessed it. i'd loved to be proven wrong though but its just not in the realm of possibility im afraid.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  37. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    What you see is a very small percentage of what actually happens in the real world.
    When you throw in ONE other person, you double your experiences.
    This subject is subject to interpretation from hundreds of players. Thats a whole lot bigger sample to find examples in.
     
  38. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    I play quite often with a guy my age who was as high as 87 on the ATP tour and won 2 titles..

    I can't get more than the occasional game off him, but he won't approach to my BH...

    I'm just a decent 5.0, if I can do it, so can a whole lot of other people.

    I have seen come 'country club tennis' when I have been in the states and I can see why someone exposed only to that might think the way Sureshs does, but there are more things (and rec players) in heaven and earth etc etc...
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  39. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Exactly, a "good rec player" doesn't necessarily have to be a fat, old, out of shape bald guy.
     
  40. tennishotdog

    tennishotdog Rookie

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    but i wouldnt count former college players among rec players either
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  41. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    OK, what about a guy who practiced with Div11 singles players, goes more rounds in A/Open then the college players, but never played for a college?
    Would someone like that count?
     
  42. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

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    How high a level is rec anyways? Former college players? If so the sky is the limit. However if rec is like at the 4.0 level then there are just some things pros do that recs can't. You can't "accidentally" hit a pro level shot if you don't have/know the mechanics of a pro level shot.
     
  43. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Can we automatically assume a 4.0 doesn't have correct form, or is only relegated to hopeless underspin moon balls?
    Is it illegal for a 4.0 to possess 90 mph groundies, even if they only go IN when the player is ON?
    Or does a 4.0 automatically have to be an openstanced volleyer, using only the wrong grips with short followthrus, wears thick coke bottle glasses, and runs the 50 in 10 seconds?
     
  44. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

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    I don't think there is a "correct" strokes, at the 4.0 level there is always something you can do to improve your strokes. Pros can improve their strokes too, but they are usually very minor changes.

    Also, don't think I'm underestimating the 4.0 level. My father is a mid-level 4.0 and I've seen plenty of his matches. Some of them have atrocious strokes, some have pretty strokes that I would envy. However if their strokes were at the level of a pro, then I would assume that he is at least at the 4.5/5.0 level. I'm going on about this because I believe that to hit a winner as good as a pro (which would match general speed/spin/placement) would require stroke mechanics that can't be replicated by chance.
     
  45. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    This can be a very long debate. Rec player, to me, is a very confusing word. I always imagine family tennis on Sunday afternoon. I'd say everybody in these forums are a bit more than that regardless of the level, otherwise we couldn't care less how we do this or that, which strings, which racket, blah blah.
    I think we should be called amateur club players.
     
  46. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

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    It's hard to draw a fine line because "rec" is such a vague category". Does it refer to how good you are? How often you play?
     
  47. Ashley D

    Ashley D Rookie

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    I'm a 4.5 and I once hit a forehand winner down the line that felt like no other I'd ever hit before. Timed it perfectly, the ball flew off the strings with a heap of pace and spin. I remember thinking at the time "that must be what it feels like to be a pro." That was one time, four years ago. Never done it since. So I reckon yes, a rec player can hit a winner like a pro, but it will be an absolute fluke!
     
  48. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    surely it is anyone who does not derive their income from the game?

    Disclaimer. That rules me out, actually, :)
     
  49. vil

    vil Semi-Pro

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    Also we shouldn't compare ourselves to pros. It is their job and everyday practice with professional coaching and guidance. Plus hitting millions of balls with another quality partner. I dare to say (apart from pensioners) all of us have a day job they can't give up. Our practice and coaching is limited and we have to fund it ourselves. Therefore our results reflect to that.
    I don't think it's so hard to understand why they are so much better.
     
  50. Roy125

    Roy125 Professional

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    Lol you guys, let's remember that not all winners pros make are astoundingly difficult. I mean, I've seen some pros hit a choppy, floating backhand in the center of the court for a winner because he got his opponent way off the court with the last stroke.
     

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