Can Federer beat Sampras record for weeks at number 1?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by timnz, Nov 18, 2009.

  1. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

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    Lets say Sampras' best year is 94 and Federer's 06, In 94 Todd Martin got to the final of the Australian and got to the semis of the Wimbledon and didn't finish the year in the top 8 and was barely top 10, in 06 James Blake got to 1 slam quarter final at the US Open and finished the year as no.4, doesn't that tell you that Sampras' era was stronger?
     
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  2. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You just bringing up names to make Pete look good. Fact is...he never faced a single player you listed above in 2000, and facing no top 10 players. 1999 he faces Andre, who didn't show up by serving 44% 1st serve.

    And besides, there's nothing you can say Roger wouldn't of take down any of those players, or they would beat today's players. All we have known facts are their records and titles.
     
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  3. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Not only that but Chris Evert reached 34 straight slam semifinals spread out over a 12 year span as she skipped some for WTT tennis commitments in the 70s. Not to take anything away from Evert, one of the greatest women players of all time alongside Graf, Navratilova, and maybe Court, but what kind of a talentless field were most of these women to allow someone to reach the semis of every slam she played for 12 years. Just embarassing.

    Womens tennis is always the same. Between 1-3 great players, between 2-3 players ranging from pretty good to very good (depending on the time) behind them, and everyone else completely hopeless or completely out of their primes.

    Graf never had any real theats other than Navratilova early on, Seles in the middle, and Sanchez at the end of her reign. Navratilova never had any threats other than Evert, Hana, and Graf towards the end. Evert had no real challengers during his dominance other than Goolagong and an old King. Court hardly broke a sweat vs anyone other than King, Bueno, and to some degree Ann Jones. It is the same for everyone.
     
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  4. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Would you even try to argue todays grass court field is even adequate, never mind strong. Before Wimbledon each year who do you list as the contenders, or the guys you think have a good shot even make the semis. It is hard to even pick 4 guys to make the semis each year as there arent even 4 viable people to do that amongst todays grass court field. Basically in 2004 and 2005 you said Federer, Roddick, and Hewitt are really good on grass, god knows who else would do well though. Since 2006 you say Federer, Nadal, and maybe Roddick are who you think will do well at Wimbledon, again who can even think of others. Murray wasnt even on the radar on grass until this year, Djokovic isnt thought of as a top grass courter, Nalbandian and Safin never were (their making a final and semi of Wimbledon somehow is comical and a reflection how anyone can do well on grass today as there are hardly any top grass courters existing).
     
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  5. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    In 2006 Davydenko was year end #3, Blake year end #4, and Ljubicic year end #5. Just scary. 3 of the top 5 are guys who would never reach a slam final their whole careers, and the #4 would never reach a slam semi.

    A guy like Todd Martin I feel sorry for as he a very high quality player who was often buried by the great depth of his prime years in the mid 90s.
     
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  6. Ill admit that 2006 was a bit of a twillight year, but you shouldnt judge an entire era based on 1 year.
     
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  7. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    I think the eras of Sampras and Federer will be split into two parts in history though and even out more or less. Yes the competition Sampras won half his slams against and had half his year end #1s from 1990-1995 was very strong. However the field from 1996-2002 where he won the other half of his slams and had half his year end #1s was very weak. The competition Federer had in winning 9 of his slams and ending #1 three times from 2003-2006 wasnt as strong. However the competition from 2007-onwards is very strong, a heck of alot stronger than the 96-2002 field Sampras had half of his achievements against, and Federer has already amassed 6 more slams and likely atleast two year end #1s vs that field.
     
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  8. AAAA

    AAAA Hall of Fame

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    You said quote

    '......Graf by far had tougher competition'

    so now you're changing your point and talking about achievement levels instead.

    See the bit I bolded. If Graf dominated more than Federer then Graf's opponents were less competitive against her.

    You make a point, without thinking it through for accuracy, get called on it then back track and say something else.

    Thanks.
     
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  9. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    So Federer's competition was better since he allowed 1 or 2 slam champion calibre players like Djokovic and Murray to beat him more often, while Graf refused to allowed such counterparts on the female side like Sabatini or Novotna to do so? Federer's competition is better since he allowed Nadal to dominate him on clay, always give him such a tough time even on his beloved grass, and to own him head to head, while Graf never allowed Seles to do these things even during Monica's dominance of the game? What kind of nonsense logic is that.

    That is why Graf is greater than Federer. She holds an iron clad fist over her rivals and challengers alike. Federer does not have the same mental strength and confidence level of Graf to do so over his.

    You earlier asked for me to name someone with a winning H2H over Graf and equal or superior physical abilities. That player doesnt exist since Graf is too great and simply never allowed it to happen. Federer was unable to do that.
     
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  10. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    I agree with this,kinda the way I see it as well.I was actually always surprised Sampras didn't win more slams than he did in 1996-2002 period,the competition was IMO significantly easier than 1990-1995 and you would expect that someone with Pete's amazing serve would have had more longevity and took advantage of that,instead he was mostly just winning Wimbledon in that period.

    Granted he did have some bad luck(like missing '99 USO)and thallasemia minor probably affected his longevity and made it lesser than it should have been for someone who has one of the best serves ever.
     
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  11. flying24

    flying24 Banned

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    Sampras was past his prime after 1997. 1997 was the year he turned 26 in August. As Federer also shows it is natural that is the point even naturally rate maturing players are past their primes in the modern game, and will continue to be unless they find a way to make it less physically taxing on the players. The Federer prime was mid 2003-end of 2007. The Sampras prime was also mid 1993-end of 1997. Early bloomers like Nadal will be past their primes at around....well maybe age 23 which is Nadal's current age.

    Sampras playing at his 1993-1997 level would have been more dominant than ever in years like 1998-2002 but he was past his prime physically and stroke wise by then.

    Sampras in 1999 and to a lesser degree 2000 was also unlucky. He would have won Australia in 1999 if he had played (his own fault and dumb choice in hindsight) and would have won the U.S Open hands down without that fluke back injury just before. I always felt 1995 was the one and only year Agassi deserved to end with atleast 2 slams and the World #1 but didnt turn out that way. Then in 1999 as well as he played it was almost an injustice it was Agassi ended that year as the paper best and #1 with his 2 slams and 3 slam finals when Sampras was clearly superior to him when playing that year. I guess fate balanced it out sort of between them somehow though. 2000 he might have won Australia without that injury he picked up, and even with he really outplayed Agassi in that amazing semifinal and got a bit unlucky to lose, and then the U.S Open final Safin played out of his mind despite Sampras's form that whole tournament being head and shoulders tops over Safin (who struggled with Kiefer, Grosjean, and others to even make the final).
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
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  12. AAAA

    AAAA Hall of Fame

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    I understand tougher competition to mean competition that wins more against you than competition that does not.

    What's your understanding?


    The bit in bold reinforces my point. Federer had and has players who can compete and win against him more than can be said about Graf so Federer has tougher competition.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
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  13. mental midget

    mental midget Professional

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    yes. we have a winner. era debate is tired, moving on . . .
     
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  14. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Djokovic and Murray are not even able to consistently avoid bad losses in slams, in addition to their failure thus far to win more than 1 slam between them. So they are obviously not any better than the 1 or 2 slam winning challengers behind the true rivals Graf faced like Sabatini, Pierce, Novotna, even Martinez. The fact Federer struggles so much more with them than Graf did with those I mentioned is his own fault.


    No Graf is a better player amongst her gender, the undisputed female GOAT which Federer is not even close to being among the men. Hence why she never allowed anyone ever to dominate her head to head, even Seles during her own peak and dominance of the womens game was unable to, and Navratilova still at the peak of her reign vs a 16 and 17 year old Graf was unable to. Federer being not as great as Graf is unable to prevent the occasional rival from having the upper hand or even temporarily dominating him (eg- Nadal, Murray in non slam events) or from having more wins against him (Djokovic, Nalbandian, etc..).

    Graf has too much pride to allow herself while still in her prime to go 3-6 vs a slamless at age 22 player like Murray, go 5-5 in the last almost 3 years vs a 1 slam winning 22 year old like Djokovic, to only be up 10-8 vs a slamess pretender like Nalbandian. And certainly too much pride to lose a slam final 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 to her biggest rival (Graf would never allow Seles or Navratilova or a Williams to beat her in a slam by that score even at 15 or 35 years old) or to let her biggest rival regularly push her to the limit or beat her on her turf (eg- Seles beating Graf at Wimbledon or Navratilova beating prime Graf at the French).

    Federer is not the female Graf. One is GOAT, the other is not and only has hype by some of being it since he is most recent. One scares all her main rivals while herself being scared of none of them, one other is actually scared of some of his closest rivals all with many fewer slams and accolades than he has.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
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  15. AAAA

    AAAA Hall of Fame

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    Hence Federer plays guys who can beat him more often than Graf played women who can beat her. So Federer's opponents are more competive against him than Graf's opponents were against her. So Federer faces players who give him a tougher match, a more competive match, more than be said of Graf's opponents.


    Edit: Why are you adding 'noise' to the discussion by talking about who was greater comparatively within there gender group. That is not the discussion? Why? Is is safer ground for you?

     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
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  16. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    When Graf during a minor slump plays her greatest rival during her greatest year ever on her best surface this is the kind of effort and resistence she stiil gives:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/hre80#p/u/16/aTizWun4CSU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8ulDTANZg
    http://www.youtube.com/user/hre80#p/u/14/7wiOoMPmLDk

    When Federer is in a minor slump and plays his greatest rival ever during his best years ever on his best surface this is the kind of resistence he gives:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-HD8JzcWI

    When Graf in the midst of a minor slump plays her greatest rival on her own turf during her greatest rivals best year ever this is what she does to her, especialy when she is still smarting from a tough heartbreaking loss the previous slam shown above, instead of cowering in further fear as Fed would to Rafa, Graf gets more p1ssed off and she takes it out in brutal revenge fashion in true Graf fashion:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVFVuhNB240

    When Federer during a minor slump plays his greatest rival during his greatest rivals best year ever on his own turf this is what he allows to happen to him:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONmvPgC9l-U
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
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  17. Chadwixx

    Chadwixx Banned

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    90's womens tennis vs fed? LOL

    "No Graf is a better player amongst her gender, the undisputed female GOAT which Federer is not even close to being among the men"

    Graf isnt the goat of womens tennis, martina is. Its down to fed and laver now for the goat in the men.
     
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  18. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Fail. Graf is the womens GOAT. Martina, Court, and Evert battle for 2nd. Martina feels she has to claim she is in press conferences even today to try and boost her ego and convince people of what she deep down knows Graf took away from her. Graf doesnt since she already knows who the real GOAT is, and she isnt an egotistical attention hog like Martina. Graf also has moved on in life with a beautiful family and husband, while Martina tries to desperately make headlines by playing cheesy exos, continuing to play doubles even today as doubles now produces scab singles rejects fields, have break ups with her 20th new girlfriend and try to make as much news with each as she can, whining about American politics and reapplying for Czech citizenship as her avenue of pushing home the publicity seeking point, and in short showing she has no real life now that her serious tennis career is over. Next.

    Fail again. Laver is head and shoulders above Federer. Rosewall and Gonzales are also regarded as superior by nearly all tennis historians who arent trying to market the current game alone. Sampras and Borg are arguably superior in just the Open Era.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
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  19. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    If you claim Roger isn’t a goat even with his 15 GS > Sampras 14 and Laver’s 11, then you can argue Graf isn’t a goat either even though her 22 GS > 18 GS(shared by Martina & Chris)

    Why with such biased by having double standard.
     
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  20. Chadwixx

    Chadwixx Banned

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    Sanchez vicario beat her 60 62 at the french. If the era were stronger, she would of seen alot more losses like this to players who simply keep the ball in play. Imagine what chrissy (similar and more accomplished than sanchez) would of done to steffi.
     
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  21. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    no, it says that blake had overall more consistent results. Todd Martin was a streaky player, and never really was a huge threat in all tournaments. for a while there, if it was hardcourts, blake was the guy people worried about, because you could run into him early in tournaments.

    oh, and stop being a hater.

    that goes for grafselesfan too.
     
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  22. tennisMinsk

    tennisMinsk New User

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    Yes, he could :)
     
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