Can one really generalize about the fans of any single tennis player?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Russeljones, Aug 1, 2012.

  1. DRII

    DRII Legend

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    i.e. Nadal has cross-over support. That’s a good thing in case you didn't know.

    And yes; men's tennis was in desperate need of Nadal! Thank goodness he arrived; otherwise only purists and classists would have been watching the game. Although Nadal has been Federer's kryptonite; in some ways Federer needed Nadal more than anyone and should be eternally grateful the Mallorcan was born.

    Cesar needed Spartacus to make for an interesting/contrasting story! Instead of just having slaves and constituents gravel at his feet and adore his gilded gown!

    Freedom from stodginess should be appreciated!
     
    #51
  2. cueboyzn

    cueboyzn Professional

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    Given that Yellowball has been very busy over the past couple days, trying to put down Federer fans, and this effort apparently culminating in this latest lot of personally biased B.S:



    To save time in responsing to that serously very questionable if not outright absurd post, I will just take the liberty of posting the following transcript from another thread where this was discussed yesterday:-

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6767527#post6767527




    This needs no further explanation.

    As we have seen it is quite easy to hypothesize either way about fan bases of a particular tennis player, and their personal attributes and traits and levels of success in life/ in business/ in sexual conquests/ et al, but my personal view is that it is a pointless and futile exercise, and (generally) the people who feel the need to shout the loudest from the rooftops on internet forums and message boards about their success and prowess in various areas and aspects of their lives (or indeed their lives in general) are the ones most lacking in such qualities and attributes and success. (Not saying that is universally the case, however it is based on observing these and other similar behaviors on other internet forums).
     
    #52
  3. Feather

    Feather Hall of Fame

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    I disagree. I have always come across Mustard as a reasonable and well mannered poster. I really admire his way of pulling out stats. I have seen him pulling out stats that was actually favoring Roger also..

    Everyone is biased to an extent.
     
    #53
  4. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    ^ Yup, Mustard's always been reasonable despite all the insults flying around. kragster is another great Nadal fan. TheLoneWolf is/was like real mustard, zesty and sharp :) Clarky's been a riot (and I mean that positively) ... mostly. I am cool with namelessone and a bunch of others too. On the whole, each camp has its good bad and tardy posters.

    Some pretty funny posts in this thread, btw.
     
    #54
  5. Colin

    Colin Professional

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    I stand by Senti. He proves that you can have a lot of posts without being a deluded ****.

    It's funny how people are ascribing such specific character traits to such broad swaths of fans, the vast majority of which have real lives and real jobs, neither of which can be replaced by tennis or tennis forums.

    But that speaks to the 1-percenter effect. Like those who control the wealth (Fed and Nad, for example), these extremist online fans exude an outsize amount of sway relative to their miniscule representation in the overall population. They're part of a cult of personality, and not people who enjoy the sport.

    The average Fed fan (myself included) admires that on the whole he plays the most beautiful tennis one can imagine. It's as simple as that. I'm not looking for wish fulfillment, as some suggest, because I live in a basement making collages from magazine features on "Lord of the Rings" movies, dreaming of making Mirka my elvin queen and using Fed's untold millions to create a replica spacecraft from "Star Wars" to fly her and my Dungeons & Dragons role-playing group to a distant planet (but, hey, it's cool if that's your thing).

    To me, that breathtaking tennis marks the subjective idea of "the best ever" and no results can change that, but it's a bonus that he's objectively the most successful player, as well. But to an extremist few, it's a religion that must be defended, and those who doubt are infidels who must be issued fatwas (pity those who can't see the difference between a fun/absurdist thread like the Golden Eagle club and real **** exercises like digging up super-obscure facts and unremarkable YouTube clips as evidence of his GOAThood, or reanalyzing the Fedal rivalry ad nauseum as if they'll convert someone).

    In the same way, most Nadal fans would probably say they love his fighting spirit. There may be a smaller number who just want to cast him in their own romance novels, his fist-pumping muscled arm raised on the cover, his shirt conspicuously absent, the presence of underwear a mystery beneath the silk sheets. Then there are extremists, people who will bombard the Internet in blind defense of their savior, which means waging war on his foes. They defy bans with new identities to obsess another day. Even when their hero is injured, they can't accept the news, like a distraught individual who can't bear the thought a loved one has passed, so they create fantasy what-ifs, his void haunting draws he would have dominated, titles he would have won 20 times in a row if only he was not ailing. It's a sort of rare disease among a select few (or perhaps just one person with dozens of accounts): Not only can't they fathom a tennis world without Rafa, they can't fathom a post without Rafa.

    I'm not quite sure what to make of Nole fans. He's kind of a cross between Roger and Rafa, so maybe they love his winning blend of mentality and shotmaking. Maybe they love he was the third wheel who broke up a two-man party. Reasonable reasons to enjoy his game. But to the extremist, his hot 2011 is proof that he'll never lose again, a sign of dominance of years to come, his place already secured at the top of the all-time player list. And not only will he beat Fed, Rafa and Murray now, but he'd beat them at their all-time peaks everytime because he's a model of tennis perfection. Isn't this starting to feel like a battle between the world's major religions? In a similar fashion, logic never enters into these discussions.

    Murray fans live to be disappointed. Or they share kinship over flawed dentistry and hairstyling. Or they're desperately British. Or, hey, maybe they just like an underdog. Or defensive-minded tennis. Or find men who cry sexy. Or they hate Fed, Nadal and Nole and want someone else to dominate.

    As you can see, there are a lot of reasons to be a fan of a tennis player. But the right reason is because you're a fan of tennis.
     
    #55
  6. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    Are you dissing Star Wars? Because if you are, that's not cool man :(

    PS: the part in bold .. yeah you know how it looks.
     
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  7. Colin

    Colin Professional

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    Nope, I actually do like "Star Wars," even though I don't live in my parents' basement and play video games, like one poster suggested of "dorky" Fed fans. :twisted:
     
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  8. Numenor

    Numenor Rookie

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    You know, if you really intend to use Roman history as an example, you should learn it accurately first.
     
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  9. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Yes, it's outlandish for a radical fan to stick by a player with a 16 slams record. :)
     
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  10. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Reasonable?

    I beg to differ.

    More like, he is looking to find credibility, that he hopes he gets from googling up stats. You know, stats in themselves are neutral. Untill someone gives them context. And just how Mustard gives context to the stats!
     
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  11. Al Czervik

    Al Czervik Professional

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    I have this feeling that most people 30 and over are in the Fed camp, while most people younger than that prefer Rafa. I wish we could definitively measure this.
     
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  12. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Your post is so flawed...

    1. People who are credible do not find credibility, they simply have it.
    2. Stats are neutral. Really? I mean, really?
    3. If you have a better interpretation for any set of stats than Mustard, why don't you debate him instead of accusing him of being a ****?

    You need to look at yourself, because if you think Mustard is a ****, you have a serious problem being so biased that you cannot see things for what they are.

    Not one time I've seen yet Mustard go after somebody with ill intent and accusations. If he can be faulted of anything is perhaps of being way too graceful with some people who don't deserve that courtesy.
     
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  13. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Can you rationalize that hypothesis at least?
     
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  14. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    Precisely. As a Nadal fan with a knowledge of tennis statistics, one would naturally assume Mustard would use that knowledge to make a case for Nadal, right? That's why people congregate here - for debate and discussion. If you disagree with his analysis, debate him. Don't cry because he's better at the game than you.
     
    #64
  15. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    It's a shame that thread was deleted, but I really enjoyed your post about "Current Trends in Trolling" magazine. Well done. :)
     
    #65
  16. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    You know, this brings up something I hadn't thought about. But it seems to me that Federer extremists (or at least the most radicalized faction of that group) are far more violent and abusive towards Nadal fans than vice versa.

    I suppose that can be attributed to the larger Fed fan base (vs the Nadal fan base), as all qualities such as those must have a sort of Bell Curve distribution, and specimens exhibiting those qualities in the extreme would be more likely in a larger sample base.
     
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  17. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    I concur. It also clearly demonstrated the viciousness of some extreme Fed supporters.
     
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  18. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    We seem to have a similar sense of humor. Neither of us takes this forum particularly seriously and I find myself laughing at the same things you do. :)
     
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  19. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    Whatever the reason, Mustard needs to recognize it and turn a deaf ear to it.
     
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  20. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Wow did it really get that bad? The last thing I remember was YellowBall and Zagor debating and Antonio's hilarious post. After that I just went to bed.
     
    #70
  21. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Some guy just making the usual ghey comments about Nadal. I'm sure Freud has something to say about such behavior.
     
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  22. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    You wasted my time debating with me over Laver being the GOAT, than you turn around and tell me you don't really consider him the GOAT, you are only supporting him as some lame attempt to diminish Federer's accomplishments. I bet you have a thousand posts on this particular subject.
    There are quite a few dummies on this board that can't see your agenda is anything but reasonable. Over a thousand posts about Laver being the GOAT
    and arguing something you don't really believe, yeah you are very reasonable. LMFAO
     
    #72
  23. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Yep, a thousand posts about Laver being the GOAT and he admitted to me he is only doing it because others are pushing Federer as the GOAT, yes a straight shooter indeed. :)
     
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  24. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    This is a tennis discussion forum. I was putting forward Laver's case for GOAT. If I point out that Laver has won 200 tournaments, spent 7 years in a row as world number 1, won 2 Grand Slams and won a Professional Grand Slam, it is a convincing enough argument to show that Federer is not the only challenger for GOAT.

    My only "agenda" in this instance is to make people aware of great players from the past, who have a claim to be the greatest of all time.
     
    #74
  25. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    How many posts do you you think is a reasonable amount to push an agenda you don't believe in, 1000, 2000, maybe even 3000? :)

    What irks me is you wasted my time debating about it, if I knew you were just trolling, I would have ignored your postings on the subject. How I am supposed to take anything you post as serious or not now?
     
    #75
  26. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Didn't you change your avatar to Soderling right after he eliminated Nadal in 09?
    And I think you are one of the people who like to accuse Nadal of being on steroids without any proof whatsoever. Agenda, you say? The nerve!
     
    #76
  27. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Nothing wrong with debating for the sake of challenging the status quo. The mere concept of GOAT is moronic anyway.
     
    #77
  28. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    No, I supported soderling for years before that, I have always had a Soderling avatar
    of one form or another since about 2007.

    Is that right, here is the problem, you thought, you got any proof whatsoever of these accusations against me, or are you basing it on your ill conceived perceptions? I do believe many players are using PEDS not just Nadal, never have I singled him out as the only one, anyone who doesn't believe tennis players use PEDS is just plain stupid.

    By the way, Lance Armstrong has never failed a drug test either, yet he is currently being prosecuted for PED use.
     
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  29. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Yep, they call that trolling.
     
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  30. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Trolling? For putting forward the case of other players? LOL.
     
    #80
  31. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, I would say it is a passive form of trolling, no question about it.

    This is a major problem with the world, people don't say what they mean or mean what they say.

    No need for you to make a 1000 passive trolling posts on the subject.

    Why don't you just say what you really think.

    Do you need my help to teach you how to express what you feel, with just a couple of posts, seems you are wasting a lot of energy and a lot of posters time.

    Here is all you need to post.

    Nadal > Federer and maybe an occasional bad picture of Federer every once and awhile. That is all you need, not a thousand passive trolling posts.
     
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  32. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    I would applaud you for challenging the status quo and conventional wisdom on the subject, but I recently learned this constitutes trolling.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
    #82
  33. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    Or, if you disagree with his analysis, you could man-up and debate him when the next opportunity arises instead of crying about it in this thread. Again, I basically get the sense you're crying about it here because he's better at the game than you.
     
    #83
  34. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    No, you still have learning to do You see, posting your opinion is fine, but posting an opinion you don't believe in, with an agenda to raise the ire of the
    fans of another player is trolling, comprende?
     
    #84
  35. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Perhaps you need to read the forum a little more, if you don't think I tear into Mustard's analysis when I disagree with it quite often.

    Here is the sense I get about you, a weak *******, trying to support an even weaker *******. That seems about right, NO?
     
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  36. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Mustard, the poster who refuses to believe courts have been slowed down.

    Gee, I wonder why he refuses to accept this fact.
     
    #86
  37. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    For goodness sake. It's a combination of things.

    1. The slow fazing out of carpet courts from 1996-2007
    2. Wimbledon changing to 100% Rye grass in September 2001 (2002 Wimbledon was the slowest, BTW)
    3. The change from Rebound Ace to Plexicushion at the Australian Open, starting in 2008
    4. Clay-courts also seem a bit faster than in the past

    Despite all this, there is still clear differences between the different surfaces. I get the impression that some people think tennis in the 1990s was just a serve and volley fest, when the reality is that even players like Sampras and Becker would regularly stay back and rally on hardcourts.
     
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  38. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    So, lets break this down and get your opinion on the matter.

    I say right now, surfaces across the board have never been slower, the average court pace on tour is at an all time low, it has been getting slower over the past decade, agree or disagree?
     
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  39. Antonio Puente

    Antonio Puente Hall of Fame

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    Thank you, I wasn't aware of that rule. I appreciate your scholarly analysis on the subject of trolling.

    Oh, I have it now. I just opened the Modern Compendium of Trolling(forward by F1Bob) and found that rule on page 14.
     
    #89
  40. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    Run along kid, I am in a big debate over court pace with your uncle Mustard, don't have time for you right now.
     
    #90
  41. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    It's more homogenised than in the past, but there are still clear differences. As for speed across the board, with no carpet courts on tour, it has to be slower.
     
    #91
  42. Antonio Puente

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    Well, that's certainly better than crying about it.
     
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  43. Lsmkenpo

    Lsmkenpo Hall of Fame

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    OK, lets throw carpet out of the debate, here I will make it more specific for you. So we can get a real look at your opinion on the matter. I will name a few tournaments and you tell me if you think any of these are playing slower over the past decade.

    US OPEN

    Wimbledon

    Australian Open

    Indian Wells

    Miami
     
    #93
  44. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Do you think Federer is doping too?
     
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  45. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Are you saying that Mustard believes Federer, and not Laver, is the GOAT? Or does he just not believe the idea of GOAT is viable?

    And, isn't posting style part of what can constitute trolling? There is one million ways to say something, and it seems to me you are never the most diplomatic person. Doesn't that make you, in a sense, a troll?
     
    #95
  46. Lsmkenpo

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    I don't know about currently, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he did use some form of PEDs at one time or another in his career. But he isn't exactly a
    grinder that is trying to wear out his opponent during a match, is he?
     
    #96
  47. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Slowest Wimbledon was in 2002. This year's Australian Open seemed slower compared to previous Plexicushion years. Indian Wells is mediumish paced. Miami is slow for a hardcourt. The US Open is fast for a hardcourt.
     
    #97
  48. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    OK, see? Here's the problem. I think this is trolling right here.
     
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  49. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    So you were saying you were not singling out players, but that's what you just did. You are implying that because Nadal has a more physical game he must dope, while Federer is not very likely to dope.

    Do you see what you just did? And, as far as I am concerned, grinding or not, Fed could also benefit from PED use to enhance his stamina in long matches, for example. Paraphrasing your earlier statement, anybody who doesn't think that's true is stupid.
     
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  50. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I was putting forward Laver's case for GOAT on a forum where a load of posters put forward Federer's case for GOAT. I was trying to show why Federer isn't the only GOAT candidate. For example, Laver has won 200 tournaments, had 7 years in a row as the world's best player, won 2 Grand Slams and won a Professional Grand Slam. Looking at this data, it is clear that Laver is a GOAT candidate.

    GOAT is subjective, anyway. Nobody can actually officially become the GOAT.
     

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