Can the talk of talk of top d3 schools being better than unranked d1 schools end?

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by swanpm20, Feb 10, 2013.

  1. swanpm20

    swanpm20 New User

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    http://www.itatennis.com/AwardsAndRankings/Results_Entry/LatestResults.html



    I've read numerous posts on this board ragging on smaller d1 schools, encouraging kids to look at top d3 schools instead, talking about how bad these d1 schools are, etc...

    Kenyon is ranked #2 in d3 tennis. They finished runner up in last year's National Championship, losing a tight match 5-3 to Emory. They got thrashed today by UW-Green Bay, unranked d1 team, 7-0. Not even a competitive singles match in there.

    I may have a chip on my shoulder here since I've seen posts specifically targeting my alma mater (Green Bay), saying they are a garbage program and people would be better off going to UW-Whitewater. (just search posts by the poster "dusso"). So to clarify where this is coming from, that's your answer.

    Anyway, let's stop those posts right now that say how much greater the top d3 programs are than smaller d1's....

    d1 tennis is where it's at.
     
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  2. swanpm20

    swanpm20 New User

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  3. swanpm20

    swanpm20 New User

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  4. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    In defense of your school I hear you and good to see they won handily.

    But there are some very weak D1 teams with little or no scholarship money that struggle against any team they play year in and year out.

    That's the great thing about college tennis. I've said it before and will say it again. For those H.S. tennis players willing to look with an open mind, there's a place to play college tennis for any level player. College and college tennis is what the individual makes of it.
     
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  5. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    There are a couple hundred men's programs, and only 75 get ranked. The #76 DI program will whip any DIII program, and so will the #100 DI program. However, the #180 DI program, which offers no scholarship money and signs 1-star and 2-star recruits, will certainly not beat Emory, Kenyon, etc.

    I don't know about every past discussion, but there have certainly been discussions in which junior players were advised that going to the #180 DI program, with no scholarship money available, is some kind of ego trip just so the player (and sometimes his parents) can say that he played DI tennis. The same player will turn up his nose at a mere DIII program, because it is not basking in the glory of being DI. I think those discussions were pretty fair.
     
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  6. drfrankfree

    drfrankfree New User

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    I think this is a great discussion to have! Swanpm definitely has a chip on his shoulder and some of it is deservedly so. However, saying that the UWGB over Kenyon legitimizes the D1 teams as better that D3 is a tremendous leap and playing loose with some facts.
    First, UWGB is like many "lesser" D1 teams who finally got tired of getting snubbed by American kids and went the European route. 70% of their current roster is foreign. I don't blame them for doing so. Coaches are paid to win. Many talented kids in Germany, Austria, and Poland would love the chance to come to the US and get an education regardless of facilities, tradition, or academic prestige of the university. American kids have a much different scale when looking at schools.
    As far as "D1 being where its at", I would say that is a stretch when referring to a school like UWGB. The kids at Kenyon lead a lifestyle much more akin to a D1 program in terms of travel, facilities. equipment, budget, and the overall experience. At UWGB, the facilities are indisputably terrible. There is no home match experience as they play at a public racket club off campus. At UWGB, there is a huge commuter population, around 70% of the student body so the traditional college experience is not there. The coach at UWGB, unless things have changed, is a part time guy who teaches at the club the team plays at. Contrast this to Kenyon, who travels first class everywhere they go, have amazing campus facilities that easily exceed 90% of D1 schools, and a full time coach. Top level D3 schools travel around the country to play matches. Even UW-Whitewater does this. UWW has far better facilities than Green Bay and a dedicated full time coach.
    I wouldn't say Kenyon is a true #2 right now in D3. That is based primarily on last years surprise run to the finals. They are probably a solid 5 or 6. CMS, Amherst, and Midd all stack up better that Kenyon. CMS would easily handle most division 1 teams not in a BCS conference. As a matter of fact, my bet is they would win several of the D1 conference championships if they played for them. They have 3 five stars in their starting lineup. How many non-BCS D1 teams even have 1? Emory has routinely beaten teams from D1 conferences (Big East, SoCon). In the fall tourneys, you can see how well the top D3 players fair against D1 guys. It's pretty impressive.
    In closing, you should be proud of your team. They have a solid group of guys and may contend for the Horizon league. However, it's a blanket statement in error to remark that "D1 is where its at". That is simply not true. I dont think a great majority of 4* kids would rather spend their college years playing on rented courts with a part time coach in the middle of nowhere over Amherst, CMS, Emory, or Middlebury just because they are D1.
     
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  7. swanpm20

    swanpm20 New User

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    Thank you for that insightful post drfrank, as well as Clark and andfor. Yes, the post I made yesterday was definitely in a moment where I was in a mood that gave me a chip on my shoulder...you see, for the second consecutive year we had a highly ranked d3 school not give what I felt was their best effort against us (last year was Chicago, who was around #10 at the time, who I am aware ended around #30).

    Drfrank, let's continue this discussion. I see from your post history that your son attends an upper d3 school, and that may make your biased. I am clearly biased as well given that I could not be happier with the choice I made to go to UW-Green Bay in terms of college tennis, and feel that I had just about the best college tennis experience possible. (Well, I imagine Steve Johnson and Daniel Nguyen probably had a good time winning those 4 national titles.... but, it's all relative!)

    Let's try to put our biases aside and talk about the positives and negatives of both sides. Here, in my mind, are the huge positives of playing for an upper level d3:

    1. Compete for a national championship.
    2. National recognition.
    3. Better academic name.
    4. Compete for individual titles as well (depending on how good you are).

    Now let's say, for comparison's sake, someone who is a mid-level 4 star. They have a few different options. They can excel at one of these d3 schools, compete for national titles, and the other positives I mentioned above.

    Another option they have is to play for "StateU" as you mentioned in your post on another thread. This is a fair point; a lot of players at this level are risking riding the bench all 4 years if they go to one of the big conference schools.

    Being fresh off my college tennis experience, I can say that it goes by WAY too quickly, and if you had to sit on the bench even one year, that would seem like you're missing out on so much.

    So here are some reasons why I think that same level 4 star player should look at a mid major like UW-Green Bay, for example.

    1. Chance to get nationally ranked in d1. As a team, this is the goal this year, and it would be first time in school history. In individuals, I would not be surprised if Michael Tenzer pulled it off in tomorrow's rankings for the first time in school history.

    2. Chance to compete against the best of the best in college tennis. You don't get to play ITA regionals against Ohio State's best players if you play at a d3 school. This gives you such a great opportunity to maximize your tennis abilities as well.

    3. Play for your conference championship. This isn't quite as big as playing for the d3 national title since there is obviously less recognition, but it's still something you shoot for all year round. Lots of midmajor teams treat their conference championships as the Super Bowl (we sure do.)

    And last, but certainly not least.....


    4. Financially, it is such a sound decision. When upper d3 schools can cost upwards of $50k per year for tuition alone, this can pack a kid with so much debt that they better make a TON of money someday if they ever want to pay it off. Because of the scholarship I got to attend Green Bay, I am graduating in May with absolutely no debt, and my Business degree gives me the opportunity to do anything I want to do in the business world, as long as I perform well enough at my job. I think a lot of kids don't realize this at age 18, but I know at 22 I am incredibly thankful I made the decision I made. I know that I wanted to go Big Ten, but my parents leaned me much more toward Green Bay knowing what a great decision it would be for my future off the court. After having such an amazing experience on the court that culminated in the team's first ever NCAA experience, it is absolutely something I'd recommend to anyone.

    Midmajor d1 schools do not get the respect they deserve on this board, imo...and that is why I am here. There is a lot to be said for getting an undergrad degree with no debt.
     
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  8. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Great thread. I agree that mid level unranked D1 schools do not get enough respect usually because they lose more than win but that dosen't mean they are bad players.

    Another result over the weekend. Texas San Antonio easily beat a top 15 D2 team.
     
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  9. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I'm a huge fan of mid-major D1. Even a bigger fan of American kids like you who choose to go there for all the reasons you just mentioned. You have a great attitude and outlook. I hope my kid can have a similar college tennis experience and more importantly come away with a degree he can use and and outlook like you.

    Work hard and maintain your positive view. You'll go far.

    Thanks for sharing.
     
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  10. swanpm20

    swanpm20 New User

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    You bet andfor, I appreciate that. What level is your kid at?
     
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  11. swanpm20

    swanpm20 New User

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    Good call, I noticed that one as well. They might be a bit like us in a way in that they're an after thought since they're in the same state as Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, TCU, etc.

    It is true that a lot of mid level teams lose more than they win, and a lot of this is due simply to how the coach schedules things. I think this contributes in a large part to a college tennis experience as well. Quite simply, it is not very fun to lose a lot, and it is a lot of fun to win a lot. W-L record is rather underrated imo, not necessarily for determining team strength, because the ITA rankings do a great job of that, but rather for overall college tennis experience of those on the team.
     
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  12. drfrankfree

    drfrankfree New User

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    swap, I can see your points. There is definitely a market for the mid major teams. My biggest point of contention with your post was saying, in a blanket statement, that "D1 was where its at". I suppose both our our arguments could be supported based on what a particular player is looking for. Case in point, my son has a friend on that UT-San Antonio team you previously mentioned and he could not be happier. He was a solid 3* kid who probably was looking at upper level D3 and decided to go mid major D1. It's worked out well for him. However, I can show you plenty of other kids who ended up at mid major directionals just for the "D1 experience". These kids almost always bail after a year or two because a lot of the time these programs have terrible facilities, poor coaching, and lackluster school and student support. I realize it doesn't always happen but a quick glance through the history of OVC, Horizon, and Southland rosters will prove me right. On the other hand, many of these same kids dismiss D3 schools where they could receive a phenomenal education, play in excellent facilities, receive great coaching, and enjoy full administration support. From a talent standpoint, many of the best D3 kids turned down big D1 offers. Many others, turned down mid major and D2 offers. In the end, it just depends on the individual player and their wants. My son, chose to go D3 primarily because of the things you mentioned. A chance to play for a nat'l title, individual awards, etc... I will admit, I was a bit skeptical in the beginning. It took some on campus visits to sway me. However, when you compare the teams and facilities of a mid-major D1 school, say the 6th place team in the OVC, with a Kenyon, Hopkins, Mary Wash, or Trinity Tx, its not even close. Hopkins or Trinity Tx would absolutely destroy Eastern or Western Illinois, Loyola, MD, La Salle, St Josephs, and lots of other D1 mid majors. In the end, it just comes down to the individual, I just think its a big problem that some of our top talent is brainwashed into the "D1 or nothing" mindset.
     
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  13. 10isDad

    10isDad Hall of Fame

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    A couple examples of D-II schools upending D-I schools. 2 years ago, Grand Canyon University was #20 D-II team and they beat Northern Arizona 5-2 (All matches were completed and final score was 6-3). Last season GCU played Cal Poly, which was ranked around #50 and GCU lost 5-1 (7-2) Most of the matches were very competitive, but Cal Poly was definitely the better team.

    Additionally, 2 years ago Hawaii Pacific (a top 10 D-II school) walloped Air Force.

    The #1 D-II team in the country (Armstrong Athletic) often plays and badly beats some D-I teams. If fact, I'd love to see the results between AA and perhaps a D-I school ranked around #30.

    As for UTSA "easily" beating a top D-II team, the singles were all straight set wins, however there were several close sets and UTSA did lose the doubles point. Perhaps "easily" is a bit of an exaggeration.
     
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  14. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    The very top D2 teams can play. Armstrong Atlantic would be a top 25 D1 team. There players routinely beat UGA players by lopsided margins in the fall. But D2 isn;t deep at all. Get past #5 and there is a large drop off. While in D1 there are 90-110 quality teams.
     
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  15. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    I agree but to a point. Without seeing AA play a ranked team its a little hard to tell. They don't appear to have 1 D1 team scheulded this spring. Maybe no ranked teams wants to play them. And maybe their coach does not want to risk a loss. Their top 3 are very good and yes your right they did score some wins over UGA players in the fall. I believe a top 25 D1 team would expose them with depth.
     
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  16. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I was going to say something like this. The Top of DIII has very good players, a high level of play. But, the overlap with DI is not THAT big. As has been said, Top 100 D1 teams aren't going to lose to any DIII team, including the national champion. But, as you go down the list and get into the 150 and 200 range for DI, matches could start to be competitive with the very top DIII teams, and eventually there would be weak DI teams that the top DIII teams would beat. Not many, but they do exist.

    Why is the OP offended?
     
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  17. Coach Carter

    Coach Carter Rookie

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    I would totally agree with this statement. After a decade of recruiting - it was a sad thing to see families with a illusion that their kiddo was going to play big time D-1 tennis when they needed to be doing what I'd suggest for anyone...if you love tennis and want the opportunity to continue your playing career into college, then look for a team that matches your goals. That will take some work on your part, but the internet is there and all you have to do is search and start making contacts. Look at rosters, look back at those players jr results, look at team schedules to see where they travel to and what they do, contact a higher up team player thru a site (you could contact a player) and inquire about team atmosphere...you can educate yourself pretty well...and maybe have some friends before you get there!!! Put yourself in a spot that makes actual sense financially, academically, and athletically for you. If it's important in any of those departments, then don't make a selection that will have you falling short in one of those sections.
     
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  18. Coach Carter

    Coach Carter Rookie

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    swanpm20 -- I appreciate that last long post you had. You have some good things to say. The thing that still needs to be mentioned that I think many young players (and their parents) miss out on...you were obviously quite a talented player to have received that scholarship offer to that mid-major. Many of the jr players that you also deal with in recruiting are uneducated on the process still (less than before)...they believe they are going to get this phantom last minute scholarship offer call from the coach from Texas, Georgia, USC or fill in the blank. They want to believe that they are the player that will GO BIG. swan you had something to your game and your academic background that allowed a coach/school to invest in you. I agree with some of Dr. Frank's thoughts and just want to add...it all depends on the school and more, the coach at the school. If the program is important and is being "invested in" by the coach and school then it'll be worth being a part of. A fun but serious tennis environment, with a smart schedule that allows for success quickly is definitely important...it cultivates an attitude of winning...breeds more winning and draws more winners to your program...the tennis circle of life!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2013
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  19. swanpm20

    swanpm20 New User

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    Check out one of my latter two posts where I posted a link to the thread inquiring about UW-La Crosse tennis. UW Green Bay tennis, where I played, is specifically attacked in there multiple times. That's where the chip on my shoulder comes from.
     
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  20. swanpm20

    swanpm20 New User

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    You hit the nail on the head Coach Carter (great movie by the way) when you say that the problem is that so many kids think they can play for the big program. Lack of education and lack of realistic thinking while in high school is a big thing that causes a lot of kids to have negative college tennis experiences.
     
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  21. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    I am a former D1 player who now coaches college tennis at a D3 school called Drew University. My top 2 guys for sure could play D1 as they were both 3 star level players. That being said, for the academic level of Drew there aren't many D1 programs that would offer full or even half-scholarships that a 3 star would get.

    We played a team this year that had 4 former D1 starters and of the 6 courts they played on, we won 5 of them.

    We are a good program that goes to nationals every year, but we aren't even nationally ranked. Compared to D3, the bottom D1 schools are usually weaker academically and athletically and may or may not even offer scholarships. If you aren't at the level of going pro or getting a full ride to a good school, I would go to the best school that fits the academic, social, athletic, geographic, and financial needs. Academics, should take highest priority.
     
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  22. goldy0084

    goldy0084 Rookie

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    Keep in mind- Just because a school is a "lesser known" or smaller mid-major Division I school, you cannot generalize and say the coaching a player will receive is bad. Some of the worst coaches in the country work in some of the top 50 FBS schools and some very talented, hard-working guys are grinding in small schools. UWGB completely revamped their tennis program with aggressive international recruiting and some scrappy Americans. Also some of the schools listed like LaSalle are part-time programs that may practice once a week. Compare apples to apples--a full time D3 team vs a full time small D1. The OVC is also an incredibly weak league, but even a mediocre at best team like Austin Peay would destroy a top 10 D3 team. Additionally, some of the players in the OVC are ridiculously good players. Syrym Abdukhalikov at TTU was #548 ATP and Dean O'Brien played there as well, who transferred to GT and clinched when they beat UGA two years ago.
     
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  23. Coach Carter

    Coach Carter Rookie

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    No doubt, at these weaker D1's they get some great players (even a blind squirrel...). They may "nut up" and give all their scholarship load to 1 or 2 dudes...nothing for anybody else. One of the issues I saw is many times those good players realize the school and coach doesn't invest in what's going on (budgets for travel or supplies, etc). The coach is only going to beg and borrow for so long. The stud get hacked off and their abilities go down along w/ attitude while there and they are looking for quickest opportunity out. It's an ugly losing proposition. You roll up against a D3 with 6-8 solid guys that may not be international studs but may be a couple 3 stars, three 2 stars, and the rest 1 stars that want to bust it and show what they have. You have a slugfest. Bad attitudes vs heart and fight. Even like what I had two 2 stars and six 1 stars can do some big time damage.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2013
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  24. goldy0084

    goldy0084 Rookie

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    Again, a bad, bad generalization. Just because the top 1 or 2 are amazing, does not mean the bottom will be weak AND that those guys are getting 100%. Many smaller D1's do have 4.5, so do the math. Some coaches can just flat out-recruit bigger schools on occasion (for a number of reasons). I saw the #5 guy in a "weaker" league get nationally ranked and beat the #5 guy from Wake. They publish an unofficial ranking list of several hundred schools in D1 and some teams well outside the top 100 are quite good and would easily beat a "couple of 2/3 stars rolling up."
     
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  25. Hodgey20

    Hodgey20 Rookie

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    I play at the D3 level, by no means are we a top level DIII team, but I would say we are a competitive DIII team. We have played some top tier teams in D3, and I would have to say that any DI team would be heavily favored to beat a DIII team. Its just two different levels. I do love playing DIII tennis and I have had a ton of fun doing so but Im not going to sit here and say that a DIII school could compete at a DI level.
     
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  26. ClarkC

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    Any D-I team would be favored to beat the very best D-III teams? You might want to check out tennisrecruiting.net and see the level of players who go to the D-I programs that are non-scholarship. There are programs out there that have 1-star guys in their top 6. No magic D-I dust rubs off on them and makes them better than the 4-star opponents they would face from a top D-III opponent.
     
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  27. grouseking

    grouseking New User

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    Unfortunately, there is no simple formula or statement that fits with this discussion. The divisions are not decided simply by how good the athletic programs are. There are so many factors that go into each program that a blanket statement doesn't work. There are DIII programs that can and do beat DI programs. There are some very good DII programs that would compete at a high level in DI. But, we're talking about 100's and 100's of programs. DIII tennis is particularly competitive because of a variety of factors, one being that in general tennis is a minor sport with relatively little scholarship resources. Another factor is the impact of foreign players, and the trickling down of very good American players to DIII.

    Within the past ten years, DIII has gotten both stronger at the top and deeper. Where there used to be a handful of top teams, with a handful of top players, there are now many very good teams with some great players and many, many good players.

    Because there is such little cross-over between the divisions in terms of play, it's a silly argument to get wrapped up in. I think that it's important for recruits to do their homework and know what they're looking for in the process. Be honest with yourself in what is important in the experience. One division is not better than the other except in being able to offer more of what you are interested in with regards to the experience. Often, it's taken for granted that DI programs are better because they're DI. That isn't necessarily the case. But at the same time, it isn't a knock on DI to acknowledge DIII or DII.
     
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  28. Hodgey20

    Hodgey20 Rookie

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    thats why I say that a D1 is favored over any D3.. just two different levels.
     
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  29. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    And your statement is still ignorant, as discussed previously with no rebuttal from you. Go check out the rosters in the MEAC or similar D-I conferences.
     
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  30. Hodgey20

    Hodgey20 Rookie

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    I didnt mean to offend anyone (ClarkC). just giving my opinion.. you play DIII tennis, because it seems like I have pushed the wrong button with you :)
     
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  31. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Nope. Don't even have any friends who play D-III tennis. I guess the way to push the wrong button with me is to say ignorant things, and then repeat them without doing your homework on the subject. :)
     
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  32. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Elon beat #20 D3 Washington & Lee 7-0
     
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  33. okdude1992

    okdude1992 Hall of Fame

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    the top d3 schools can beat a lot of d1 schools. look at some of the rosters. there are a bunch of 4 and 5 stars in d3. could they beat a top 100 d1 team? most likely not, but some competitive matches would probably happen. then you have the top d2 teams, many who have primarily international players. a few of these teams could surely compete vs top 50 d1.

    d1 is obviously the best, tennis wise, but the elite teams and players in any division are very good.
     
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  34. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    Providing examples of D1 programs beating ranked D3 programs does not prove the OP. Most D1 programs will not play D3 programs that have a realistic chance of beating them. The D1 program has too much to lose with very little to gain. I coach D3 and we have played a few teams made up of low-level D1 players that have transferred to D3 schools. Most D1 school (probably 80%) are better than D3 schools, but those bottom 20% can be of a really low level. I know of a D1 school that had only 5 players on the roster until they sent out a campus-wide email and got a player to fill out the squad who had never played tennis before but liked watching it on tv. Beginner tennis player. D1 player. 5.0 rating. Crazy!
     
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  35. goldy0084

    goldy0084 Rookie

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    Clark- There are several teams in the MEAC who would beat the #1 ranked DIII school blindfolded. FAMU just lost to South Florida and South Alabama 4-3 who are both around #50. They beat Tulane, So Miss, and lost to Miami 4-3 last year. They actually should have won against SA, but South Al but a bad player up high to throw away a spot. FAMU didn't not win the conference last year by the way.

    There are definitely some HORRIFIC teams in that league, but don't talk about ignorance man..
     
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  36. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Ok so we have gone from done people saying d3 can compete in d1 to now saying they can beat the very bottom feeders of D1. In my experience d2,d3, NAIA players think their teams are better than they are. I know a guy here at Clemson now who says his Auburn-Montgonery team could be top 10 d1. His reason was that Doumbia played 7 at AUM and 3 at UGA. First of all Doumbia played 1 almost his whole career at AUM. Also this guy claimed that Emory could beat GT. no matter how bad GT is this year they would still walk the dog on Emory.
     
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  37. rafa3141

    rafa3141 New User

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    Goldy- which #1 D3 schools have you seen play?
     
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  38. goldy0084

    goldy0084 Rookie

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    Have watched, coached against, or played virtually any of them that are any good.
     
    #38
  39. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    I am not talking about the top team in any D-I conference. The point is that you have people saying that ANY D-I team would be favored against a D-III team. That implies that the bottom team in all of D-I would be favored against top D-II teams. Take the bottom teams from the weaker D-I conferences and you will almost always be talking about programs with no scholarships. The top teams from those same conferences might have some scholarships and some good players.
     
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  40. goldy0084

    goldy0084 Rookie

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    Clark, you are totally correct, but I don't think that's what the OP implied or what many people were echoing on here. I am hearing two completely different arguments-- The first is obviously hogwash, that ANY d1 would beat a d3. Anyone with half a brain knows this is an absurd statement. I have seen some d1 teams that could not beat a 3.5 senior women's usta league team.

    I think that Swanny was more so implying that many of the "smaller/less recognized" Division I schools that are outside of the top 75 don't get much credit, but ARE actually quite good, and would routinely beat a top ranked D3 teams...which to me is not arguable, it's a fact. Obviously, you would have to draw the line somewhere with the unranked teams, but there are a whole handful of them outside of the 75 list that can flat out play.
     
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  41. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Let's analyze the lineups.

    Elon:
    1. Cameron Silverman, junior, 5-star recruit.
    2. Robert Lindgren, freshman from Sweden.
    3. Jordan Kaufman, sophomore, 4-star recruit.
    4. Brian Kowalski, sophomore, transfer from Emory, 3-star recruit (but final ranking was #151, 4-star territory)
    5. Carlos Arboleda, senior from Colombia.
    6. Ismael Delfin, freshman from Mexico.

    Don't know how to evaluate the three foreign recruits, because they don't get stars at TRN, but we have some idea of their strength based on their lineup position and the American players who surround them. I would guess that Lindgren was high 4-star quality, maybe borderline 5-star, and don't know how to guess at the #6 freshman.

    Washington & Lee:
    1. Hayden White, senior 4-star
    2. Taylor Shamshiri, sophomore 4-star
    3. Michael Holt, freshman 1-star
    4. Christopher Hu, sophomore unranked (3-star in 8th grade, 2-star in 9th/10th, must have stuck to high school tennis after that)
    5. Brian Krouskos, freshman 3-star
    6. John Kirby, freshman 2-star

    Looks like a pretty young roster, and the star ratings don't tell me that they should win any matches against Elon. It does not seem like any magic Division I fairy dust needs to settle on the Elon players to make them the favorites.

    Top 4 singles matches were straight-set wins for Elon. 5/6 were three-set wins, match tiebreaker at 5.

    So, I guess the important question is: When the TRN rankings favor the D-III school, does the magic Division I fairy dust cause the 1-star and 2-star players to rise up and beat Emory et al.? For example, if Morgan State, with former 1-star and 2-star players at 3-4-5 in the lineup, played Washington and Lee, which is only #20 in the D-III rankings, what would we expect?
     
    #41
  42. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Agreed, it was not the original poster who was making the absurd argument, but others have persisted in making it.

    My point is that the TRN rankings are a pretty good guide to expected results. Most D-I programs have better recruits than most D-III programs, and most D-I programs therefore should beat most D-III programs. At a certain point in the D-I rankings, the D-I program should beat EVERY D-III program, because their recruits were higher-ranked than EVERY opponent in the lineup, even at Emory, CMS, etc. Maybe the #1 at CMS is better than the #6 at the 100th best D-I program, but that is not how they line up in a dual match.

    The only point in refuting the absurd argument is that some people apparently need to be made aware that there are a few dozen D-I programs that offer no scholarship money, and they are less of an academic attraction than the top D-III programs, so with no scholarships at either program, the D-III is more of an attraction to 4-star players. Therefore, the good D-III can be expected to beat the non-scholarship D-I team.
     
    #42
  43. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    I'm not sure what you are trying to say Clark. I am posting results than back up the OP's point that several unranked d1 schools are quality.
     
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  44. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    The original point is not disputed by anyone, so why belabor it? Only 75 schools get ranked, and #100 would be a darn good team by D-III standards. No argument from anyone there.

    However, ignorami continue to post generalizations like "D-I tennis is where it's at" and "Any D-I team would be favored over a D-III team." That seems to be the only point still disputed. When that is settled, the whole stupid thread can be put to rest.
     
    #44
  45. goldy0084

    goldy0084 Rookie

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    Fortmann didn't play for Elon that day and maybe 1 or 2 other starters got pulled. Both him and Silverman are ranked in the top 100 and are extremely good. Lindgren would be close to being a blue chip American. The kid is also damn good. Morgan State would beat WL 10 times out of ten this year.
     
    #45
  46. Clemson_tennis

    Clemson_tennis Legend

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    Oral Roberts is the worst team in D1
     
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  47. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    Based on what indicators?
     
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  48. goldy0084

    goldy0084 Rookie

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    Based on me having seen all Morgan's players compete this fall and knowing what WL has on their roster
     
    #48
  49. goldy0084

    goldy0084 Rookie

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    Elon also lost to nc state 43 (with real lineup) who i think is 34. I dont know if WL would put more than a couple games for the entire match with nc state. You cant just look at tr if you dont know any of the players on the roster
     
    #49
  50. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    That proves that Elon is better than Washington and Lee by quite a bit. Wait a second --- we already proved that, didn't we? Elon beat Washington & Lee 7-0, which we analyzed in detail. Your point is ... what?
     
    #50

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