Can't call your 1st serve out?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by dlam, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    This rule I'm not to fond of
    If you are allow to call any of your own shots out including the 2nd serve than why do we have to play the point if it my 1st serve looks clearly long but my opponent still returns it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
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  2. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    Because the point is conceded to your opponent on any shot of yours you call out other than the first serve. If they allowed the server to call his first serve out, you could have them argue "it was out" after the opponent hits a return for a winner.
     
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  3. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Have you not searched this on this forum? This one is pretty obvious.

    You can't watch your opponents return winner and then claim your serve was out. Any other line call you can make against yourself as there is no advantage to doing so.
     
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  4. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    Yes so the returner can hit winners all day and call my "outs" in and when he misses, hits wide, or hits the net he calls the one that was in "out"
    Makes sense to me
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
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  5. esgee48

    esgee48 Hall of Fame

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    The first or second time he or she does that, I would continue on but with a warning. After that, I would call it interruption of play and take a 1st serve or call an actual hindrance/take point. Of course, we're not talking about 100 MPH serves.
     
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  6. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    Your opponent can do this on any borderline shot, not just service returns. There's no rule that can prevent your opponent from cheating.

    The principle at work here is that can you only overrule your opponent's call when that overrule will benefit your opponent. I think that principle makes sense.
     
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  7. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    What kind of argument is that?

    I hit a 1st serve that I perceive to be wide but he says it good
    I know it's out but I can't over rule him and and end up taking the point
    Clearly this over rule would have benefited the opponent
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
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  8. Magnetite

    Magnetite Professional

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    It's just one of those things. There are many players that play without calling the score, and who barely make a gesture or say anything when a shot is out.

    I remember during one match where I hit a serve blatantly long, my opponent hit the ball casually, and didn't move, I got ready to serve again, and the guy says, "your serve was in."

    He barely called anything, so it was pretty ridiculous. You just have to play every ball and beat these idiots into a bloody pulp. Coincidentally, these are the same people who don't signal when driving, and txt while in rush hour traffic.
     
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  9. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    Good point
    Whenever I play against someone like that I alway questioning their judgement on all calls
    In this situation an over rule should have the honorable thing to do but rules prohibit it
     
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  10. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    ???
    How do you have authority to do this?
     
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  11. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    If you see your serve out, and your opponent does not get a return back, you can say to your opponent "hey, I thought the serve was out". Your opponent will then likely say either "no, your point, I'm pretty sure it was in", or else "thanks, I wasn't sure but didn't want to call it out, second serve." Either way, the final call is theirs.

    On the other hand if they make a good return, you have to play the point. You can't stop play and claim your serve was out.
     
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  12. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    Thanks that helps
    I'm forced to play the point
    Whatever the outcome of that point
    Afterwards can i still say I thought my 1st serve is out ? Yes ?
    Up to the opponent to decide to let that point stand , whether I won or he/she won the point or replay the point and do the 2nd serve
    Is this legit ?
     
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  13. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    That's not quite right. The rule is that you should call your first serve out only if your opponent fails to get a return in play.

    If your opponent gets the return in play, his non-call stands and the point proceeds. There's no such thing as playing an extended point and then mooting it at the end because you think your serve was out.
     
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  14. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    No I think you might wrong
    We can't call our first serves out no matter what
    We can only suggest by what we think we saw , the final decision is up the opponent
     
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  15. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    Here is what the Code says:

    Neither the server nor server’s partner shall make a fault call on the first service even if they think it is out because the receiver may be giving the server the benefit of the doubt. There is one exception. If the receiver plays a first service that is a fault and does not put the return in play, the server or server’s partner may make the fault call.

    So again, the the rule is this:

    1. If your opponent fails to return your first serve, you may call it out, just like you may call out your second serve, or any other shot you hit. The rules for calling first serves in this case are no different than for any other shot.

    2. If your opponent successfully returns your first serve, you have no call. Your opponent's non-call always stands.
     
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  16. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    As far as I know, the rule is that shots landing on your side are your call and shots landing on your opponent's side are their call. Period.
     
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  17. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    From the code 2011 ed

    13. Player calls own shots out. With the exception of the first serve, a player should call out the player's own shots if the player clearly sees the ball out regardless of whether requested to do so by an opponent. The prime objective in making calls is accuracy. All players should cooperate to attain this objective.

    and

    25. Service calls by serving team. Neither the server nor server’s partner shall make a fault call on the first service even if they think it is out because the receiver may be giving the server the benefit of the doubt. There is one exception. If the receiver plays a first service that is a fault and does not put the return in play, the server or server’s partner may make the fault call. The server and the server’s partner shall call out any second serve that either clearly sees out.


    From what I'm reading #25 refers to doubles play not singles.
    Any one?
     
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  18. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    I'm assuming it refers to both singles and doubles, as I can't imagine why the rule would differ between singles and doubles.
     
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  19. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    well, just play to what your interpretations of the rules of, if there is no referee
     
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  20. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Sure, a d-bag will be a d-bag.

    Doesn't mean you stop play when no call is made. You snooze, you lose.
     
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  21. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    To set some things straight.

    - Rule 25( 2011 ed) or rule 26 (2012 ed) refers to both doubles and singles.

    - Your opponent cant hit out balls all day and see where they go before calling them out because part of rule 17 states "A call shall be made either before the player’s return shot has gone out of play or before an opponent has had an opportunity to play the return shot."

    - If your opponent considers your first serve in but misses the return and you saw that your first serve was clearly out then you can and should call it out.
     
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  22. esgee48

    esgee48 Hall of Fame

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    Say 1st serve is long, but is returned without a call. I will play it and if the returner then says 'it was out', it's time for a warning because the return interrupts the service. I am no longer in position to serve a second because I am chasing down his return and have or am preparing to return the ball. If he halts play, I would warn him. Next time, it's a hindrance because he is saying something as you prepare to hit the ball. You really have to tell idiots like this what you plan to do so they understand that returning long serves are not needed. They should (1) let it go or (2) block it into the net.
     
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  23. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    Okay then what if it's a 100 mph serve?
    I don't think this will work
     
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  24. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    If you serve and I think it is in I will return the ball. Your job is to play my return until I have told you it was out. You are not disadvantaged if I play an out ball ... unless you stop playing yourself.

    If you were allowed to call first serves out then you would be in the position to see my returns and then decide to call the ball out. This would put me at a clear disadvantage if every good return I made was met with a late out call from the server.

    It seems to me that however the rule was written a nefarious person could take advantage of the rule ... The USTA, ITF, and every other organization has decided the player on the ball side of the court should have the responsibility as to whether the ball in is or out. They have been very consistent in this regard.
     
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  25. esgee48

    esgee48 Hall of Fame

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    Read my first post. I actually have time to call 100 MPH serves in or out. And stop my swing. You have about 1/2 second to read and react. 120 MPH is a different story, but how many people here face 1st serves of that speed.

    I don't disagree with the rule. What I don't like is a returner that returns a ball and partially thru the rally, say 'That was out, I think.' :(
     
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  26. stapletonj

    stapletonj Semi-Pro

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    AS to the guy who retunrs and then after a while calls your serve long...

    Don't be "that guy". duh

    Don't be afraid to invoke the make the call immmediately, no 2 chances rule....
     
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  27. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Mmmm, I'm not sure about a lot of this.

    If a fast first serve is just barely out, the receiver may well have to start his
    swing and return the ball. Yes, she should say "Out," but she may not say it loudly enough or clearly enough, especially if she is a grunter.

    If she returns the ball and then clarifies that it was out before you have hit the ball and while the ball is traveling toward you, I do not think you are within your rights to call a hindrance. The reason is that there is no live ball being played. She is calling it out, so you cannot be hindered in playing a ball that is not a live ball to play.

    Now, if it is an obviously out fault, I think you are within your rights to object to someone who constantly hits obviously out faults over the net. If you are taking the position that someone who returns a 100 mph serve that is out by two inches is returning an obvious fault, I can't agree with you.
     
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  28. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    It is time for a warning, but not because of the interruption. If they play the ball without making a call, then the serve was "in" (regardless of what you thought) and the point is on. If they then catch the ball and say "oh that was out", tell them you need them to make a call immediately if a serve is out and if they catch another live ball you are taking they point.
     
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  29. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    It is so obvious
    To prevent cheating on winning returns.
     
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  30. dlam

    dlam Rookie

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    Bed,
    read the thread.
    The rule makes it easier for the returner to cheat.
     
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  31. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    Stop reading start playing :)
     
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  32. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    I'm bumping this one...cause I hate it when new threads start up on issues we've talked about before.

    But recently had the most bizarre thing happen.

    My opponent retired because she was upset that I'd played her first serve as "in" and would not concede to give her a 2nd Serve.

    Situation: Opponent serving at 5*-5, 30*-40. She'd been serving well, with nice pace and depth. On the prior point, at 30*-30, she served one that landed on the line, I returned it, she then netted it...saying, oh I thought my ball was long. I'd replied, that no, it had looked good to me...and we moved over to the ad-court.

    Now up in the game, ready to be aggressive on breakpoint, she hits a similar serve. I could see part of the line but no separation between the ball and line so I just cracked it for a DTL winner. Was it long? I dunno, maybe, but it was certainly close enough to play. And definitely close enough to not get pi$$y about it.

    She immediately protested, saying it was WAAAY long and I just walked towards our bag explaining again, that I thought it was good, that I was normally a doubles player and sometimes struggle with calling the service line and tend to give every benefit of the doubt to the server (and had all set long). And that, finally, it was my call and I was calling it "good."

    She blasted a ball into the fence, stormed over to her bag and started packing up with an "If you want to win the match that bad, well then you can have it. I'm done. I don't feel that well anyway."

    She never shook my hand and was off the court and away from the complex in just minutes.

    I was stunned. We'd had a good match with no other line call discussions except on the point prior. In fact, earlier in the match, she played one of my serves...that I had thought long...for a nice easy winner and I just shrugged it off as my bad for not sticking with it.

    Whew. What a way to end my season. Say good-bye to USTA for me. Just gotten too crazy over the last year or so. Time to take a break. Funny, I just don't seem to remember all this drama when I first started up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
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  33. tennixpl

    tennixpl Rookie

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    totally with you. I will call it out but i call it out instantly as it hits so its not in question, lots of guys are concentration on getting the return in and also they want to be nice that if they don't see it out they call it in....well i see it out. 9 times out of ten when i do it they aren't hitting a winner off the serve. Of course if they have an issue i will always defer as it is their call... but a lot of times they think its long and look up for some verification and i confirm it. by UTSA I can ***** and say hey if YOU didn't see it out its in...and htis most often happens for me when i am killing an opponent.

    happened last weekend at a tournament, he complained the next day about me calling my own shots out and the ref had to kindly inform him that i can except on 1st serve and btw that means you are getting a second serve.

    unless a person has a killer spin second serve you should want it over a first serve anyway...... by complaining you are almost admitting its luck those few points you get in and hit a winner that get nullified, in which case know the rules and stand up for them if you want, but i am gonna claim those other 9 times out of 10 you are "unsure" of where the ball lands.


     
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  34. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    AQ, I had something similar happen in a mixed match.

    My lefty partner was in the deuce court. His BH is weak, so opposing male was serving wide.

    My partner kept playing these serves, even though they were close to being out. I do not like to call the far sideline when my partner is returning because I have a poor vantage point, so there is no way I was going to overrule him on a ball he was playing as good.

    After a few of these, the opponent protested that my partner was smoking these returns on serves opponent thought was out. It was uncomfortable, but what can you do?

    In the situation you describe, there is one thing that would have made me angry had I been the server.

    If I am playing the sort of player who frequently returns obviously out returns (and I am not saying you are!), it is upsetting when a serve that I see as long gets returned and I am not prepared to play it.

    Think about it. You aren't supposed to T off on obviously out serves and should instead catch/swat/ignore them. If you T off on every serve, I cannot distinguish from your movement when you are playing the serve because it is in compared to hitting the serve because you always do.

    It is one of many reasons I don't like it when people play obviously out serves.
     
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  35. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    I rarely return an out ball, "obvious" or not...but probably don't get a lot of brownie pts from the folks here on TT...because I also rarely pocket it, especially in singles, and prefer to just let it go or deflect it into the net or side fence.

    I could see where the situation you describe could be confusing, and like you, detest folks who T off on a ball they've already called out. Doubles, though, is a different scenario when you've got a partner calling the ball at the service line. There, I don't mind the returner whackin' away...especially if, as they mostly do around here, they apologize after hearing their partner's call.
     
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  36. jswinf

    jswinf Professional

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    The rule makes for some interesting "what-ifs," but for OP, what if you're returning a first serve that's a few inches inside the sideline, you hit a nice down-the-line return that the server takes one step toward, then says, "Dude, that serve was wide. Second serve coming." You're protected!
     
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  37. paul500w

    paul500w Rookie

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    Bottom line, never assume the ball is out until it is called out. Play ready each and every shot no matter what and you won't have to worry about it.
     
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  38. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Mmmm . . . Obviously Out Returning (OOR) is also pretty poor form in doubles. (Again, not accusing you; just talking generally).

    There are three ways the serve can clear the net yet be out: Center line, sideline and service line. Of these, the returner has the best view of two of them.

    So yes, T off on serves that are long (but not ridiculously long). Your partner is watching that line, and you need to return those close serves because you have delegated the task of calling that line to your partner. If you can stop yourself, of course you should stop when you hear your partner's call.

    As for sideline and center line, the returner has the best view and should be specifically watching those lines. There should be few returns of obviously out serves on the sideline and center line, IMHO.

    Again, I'm not saying you're guilty, AQ. Just pointing out that OOR is also a problem in doubles. Because it is also a safety issue in doubles (net players may have dropped their guard because the serve is so obviously out), I get pretty irritated about it in doubles too.

    Maybe I need to put my money where my mouth is. I'm playing social dubs this weekend with an OOR Specialist. She Tees off on every return as hard as she can no matter how far out it is. Can't bring myself to call her out because, well, who needs the headache . . . .
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
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  39. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I will often tell my opponent my first serve is out, even if he can't return it. I need to know my eyes are correct, my scruples are where I want them, and I play an honest game. He can subsequently do as he chooses.
    I often lose in the long run, but victory is not my motivation for playing tennis. Hitting great shots is my motivation.
    I often go home really crushed, even winning all my sets, if I don't hit some great shots.
    I also can go home really elated, after losing every match and set, but able to hit some really great shots. I obsess over my good shots, try to forget my dumb shots and errors.
     
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  40. ttwarrior1

    ttwarrior1 Professional

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    good question. I think servers should be able too , if it was done very very quick or hit straight back to you
     
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  41. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    hmmm. Gotta admit I'm surprised to read/see how many feel returning an out serve is somehow cheating. All firsts are in play until the opposing side calls in out; server has no input on call.
     
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  42. josofo

    josofo Semi-Pro

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    when i hit a close serve in casual matches. a lot of times i will say was it in. i should probably get out of this habit because every once in a while some guys will be like it was out. you know 15 seconds after i had conceivable won the point.


    in fact a lot of times i will just end up calling my own serves.
     
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