Cardiovascular Disease & Diet, Sugars & Fats, Statins..

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by Chas Tennis, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Here we go again -

    This morning on CNN there was a Sanjay Gupta discussion of a new British Medical Journal paper on diet issues involving fats, sugars and cardiovascular disease, etc. The paper below also discusses several other issues such as Statins.

    This might be the paper. ?
    http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f6340

    http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/oct/22/butter-cheese-saturated-fat-heart-specialist

    If Sanjay Gupta might have been referring to another recent BMJ paper, please post.

    Background - See also this long Youtube video. This research and breakthrough realization and theory may have been one of the earliest in this area of research.
    http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj..../butter-cheese-saturated-fat-heart-specialist
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
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  2. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Very old news.....cardiologists have noted for decades that the rate of cardiac mortality in France is relatively low despite high consumption of cheese and butter. It's been suggested that their mediterranean diet, with plenty of olive oil, seafood, and resveratrol in red wine is protective.
     
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  3. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Is there much published research?

    How prevalent is the use of statin drugs in France? ("such as atorvastatin (Lipitor), simvastatin (Zocor), lovastatin (Mevacor), pravastatin (Pravachol), rosuvastatin (Crestor) and others")

    There is excellent research in all areas but often its rare and not recognized. Often the wrong conclusions puts the train on the wrong track for decades....?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
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  4. WildVolley

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    The simpler explanation is that high consumption of cheese and butter isn't correlated with heart disease.

    I'm skeptical of those who want to claim that somehow cheese and butter is bad but the French are being saved by drinking red wine. Though I have nothing against drinking red wine.
     
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  5. Soul

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    I guess it isn't just a French paradox. Citizens in European countries that ate the most saturated fat tended to experience less heart disease. Recall seeing this chart on Dr. Eenfeldt's sight.

    "Stunning: Saturated Fat and the European Paradox"

    http://www.dietdoctor.com/stunning-saturated-fat-and-the-european-paradox

    snippet from the article:

     
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  6. krz

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    sugar. highly processed grains. sodium.
     
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  7. r2473

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    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
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  8. maggmaster

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    Yep, walk as much as you can. Work out and stay in a healthy weight range. Diet is good, eat the rainbow, but exercise is a great drug.
     
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  9. LuckyR

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    Why would you listen to a neurosurgeon's review of the data on heart disease?
     
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  10. WildVolley

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    You're focusing on Gupta, but the article cited quotes Aseem Malhotra, interventional cardiology specialist registrar at Croydon University hospital.

    You don't have to be a physician to analyze data from studies.
     
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  11. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    But there are well respected and poorly considered studies and research departments that those in the field know about and very learned people in other fields know nothing about.
     
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  12. Soul

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    Having heart disease myself, I have plaque in an artery, I tend to enjoy reading articles about cardiac prevention. Along the lines of what is mentioned in the OP's article, two well known cardiologists are reporting that their patients have all but stopped experiencing cardiac events. Dr. Author Agatston author of The South Beach Diet, and Dr. William Davis author of Wheat Belly have made mention of this. Both advocate lower sugar/carb diets with less concern placed on saturated fats eaten.

    Recall from Dr. Davis's sight he had this to say:

    "Why are heart attacks still happening?"

    snippet:

    - See more at: http://blog.trackyourplaque.com/201...cks-still-happening.html#sthash.v2zNNRtp.dpuf
     
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  13. Posture Guy

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    there is no credible evidence to support the view that saturated fat causes heart disease.

    In my opinion, the problem isn't fat or cholesterol, it's inflammation that creates arterial damage. And there is a growing body of evidence to suggest flours and sugars and unhealthy fats like trans fats directly create such inflammation.
     
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  14. r2473

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    For all cases below, assume I don't smoke, have abnormal genetic predispositions for cardiovascular disease, etc. Further assume that all other factors are held constant for each of the 4 cases below, except as stated

    Let's assume that through the course of my life, I eat only healthy foods. What are healthy foods? They are what you Posture Guy define as healthy.

    Case 1: By eating healthy foods, I become obese. Would you expect that I would show signs of cardiovascular disease?

    Case 2: Let's further assume that in addition to being obese, I also don't exercise. Would you expect that I would show signs of cardiovascular disease?

    Let's assume that I eat a random diet of about 40-70% carbs, 20-30% protein, and 20-30% fat. Let's further assume that these macro-nutrients come from various sources (not all healthy, not all unhealthy).

    Case 3: I eat the diet above for my entire life and am not obese. Will I likely show signs of cardiovascular disease?

    Case 4: I eat the diet above, am not obese, and exercise regularly (I walk 30 minutes daily). Will I likely shows signs of cardiovascular disease?

    Of the 4 cases above, which is the most healthy?

    Of the 4 cases above, which is the least healthy?


    Case 5: I have a twin brother. We are alike in every way. He eats healthy foods. I eat the random diet (see above for both diets). Neither of us are obese (we both weigh the same). Do either of us have a greater risk of cardiovascular disease than the other?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
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  15. maggmaster

    maggmaster Hall of Fame

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    Ugh tough stuff a large part of heart disease is almost certainly genetic.
    Case 1 - You have one major risk factor. It is the most pronounced factor outside of smoking based on a umber of recent studies. So perhaps.

    Case 2 - 2 risk factors both major, more likely than case 1.

    Case 3- 0 risk factors, still perhaps if genetically predisposed.

    Case 4- 0 risk factors and one improvement, best case so far, still possible with genetic predisposition.

    Case 5 - Unsure, the danger in a random diet is that all diets effect all people differently. Probably both pretty close to equally likely.

    Don't smoke, drink alcohol reasonably( teetotalers are worse off than heavy drinkers) stay at a reasonable weight and eat fruits and vegetables.
     
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  16. RogueFLIP

    RogueFLIP Semi-Pro

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    Stress can also play a key role and can come in many forms:

    Mental, physical, emotional, environmental, chemical....


    Everything is all connected.
     
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  17. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Manage your stress

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6402QJp52M
     
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  18. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    Interesting that the doctor promotes the efficacy of the Mediterranean Diet for high-risk people; this diet is relatively low in saturated fat.

    For what seems like a solid survey of the state of evidence, see here.

    Seems like a very careful review of the literature. From the plain-language summary:

    Modifying fat in our food (replacing some saturated (animal) fats with plant oils and unsaturated spreads) may reduce risk of heart and vascular disease, but it is not clear whether monounsaturated or polyunsaturated fats are more beneficial. There are no clear health benefits of replacing saturated fats with starchy foods (reducing the total amount of fat we eat). Heart and vascular disease includes heart attacks, angina, strokes, sudden cardiovascular death and the need for heart surgery. Modifying the fat we eat seems to protect us better if we adhere in doing so for at least two years. It is not clear whether people who are currently healthy benefit as much as those at increased risk of cardiovascular disease (people with hypertension, raised serum lipids or diabetes for example) and people who already have heart disease, but the suggestion is that they would all benefit to some extent.

    Read the whole thing; it's pretty interesting if you like to drill down into the details. Alternatively, another popular strategy is to assertively push a categorical position cos you read a book, and hey, did you hear, Ancel Keyes fabricated his data :roll: Who am I to say which method has more value...
     
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  19. Posture Guy

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    Modifying fat in our food (replacing some saturated (animal) fats with plant oils and unsaturated spreads) may reduce risk of heart and vascular disease,

    This is a statement a lot of physicians make, but fail to backup with any credible evidence.

    "unsaturated spreads"?!? ROTFLMAO. Yeah, let's replace saturated fats with a heaping dose of transfats, that will help your heart.

    Idiot.
     
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  20. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    "Idiot."

    Thanks for your considered response. Aren't you a bit old for 'ROTFLMAO'? Hey, did you hear: Ancel Keyes fabricated his data...pass it on.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2013
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  21. maggmaster

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    Saturated or unsaturated, fat is the most nut dense macronutrient. Eat it but be careful not to over do it.
     
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  22. Ano

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    +1. I agree with you.
     
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  23. Posture Guy

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    Thud....wasn't calling you the idiot, but the doctor who wrote that. He's pulling stuff out of his *****.

    And one is NEVER too old to roll around on the floor laughing. Keeps you young!
     
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  24. Posture Guy

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    Not sure why you keep bringing up Keys. Most current researchers I know don't think his data has much merit.
     
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  25. GuyClinch

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    It's actually well known that Keys truncated his data. Countries/populations that didn't fit his theory were eliminated.

    If you look back at the history - you find that there was another doctor who though Sugar was the main culprit behind heart disease.

    Of course places like the US have diets that were high in saturated fat AND sugar. So you have compounding variables. By eliminating low sugar/high fat populations (eskimos for example) he made it seem like fat was the culprit.

    Nowadays we know a bit better - at least some of us do ans the link between saturated fats and heart disease has been cast in doubt and the link between carbohydrates, sugars and high triglyercides (which are better indicators of future heart problems) has been established.

    "Though the metabolism of glucose through glycolysis uses many of the same enzymes and intermediate structures as those in fructolysis, the two sugars have very different metabolic fates in human metabolism. Unlike glucose, which is metabolized widely in the body, fructose is metabolized almost completely in the liver in humans, where it is directed toward replenishment of liver glycogen and triglyceride synthesis.[1]"

    The 'high sugar' seems to explain most of what goes on a whole lot better. Japan eats low sugar - low heart disease. Eskimos used to eat low sugar - very low heart disease. Paleo man at low sugar (though not really by choice) and it seems that heart disease didn't really get them either.

    Back then everyone went with Keys theory because he was American and rejected Yudkin - the British Doctor. But it turns out that was probably a mistake.

    Cardiologist Aseem Malhotra says almost four decades of advice to cut back on saturated fats found in cream, butter and less lean meat has ‘paradoxically increased our cardiovascular risks’.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...ay-carbs-damaging-arteries.html#ixzz2izPmXDpI
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    Professor David Haslam, of the National Obesity Forum, said: ‘The assumption has been made that increased fat in the bloodstream is caused by increased saturated fat in the diet … modern scientific evidence is proving that refined carbohydrates and sugar in particular are actually the culprits.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...ay-carbs-damaging-arteries.html#ixzz2izPxggAY
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    We have big advantages now. We know CHEMICALLY what the body does with the frutose and how it processes it. So we can really be quite certain that eating alot of Fructose causes alot of problems.

    We HAVE lowered our saturated fat consumption - but it hasn't helped. Its counter intutive to some - but high fat diets don't lead to clogged arteries. The fats created by fructose metabolism do seem to clog our arteries though.
     
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  26. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    Guy, not that I'm necessarily contesting your points, but I just want to point out: you probably don't realise this, but no sentient being on this side of the pond would reference the Daily Mail, unless they were in need of a dose of salacious wardrobe malfunction pics. Although I have seen your posts over time on this topic referencing Daily Mail, Mens Health and even chats with Japanese people...On this basis, I would question the strength of your commitment to evidence in this fieid.

    Posture Guy, again, maybe this is a transatlantic thing, but on this side, the Cochrane Collaboration is extremely well regarded for their review / metastudy work in the medical field. I personally wouldn't eat industrial spreads, but a blanket label of 'idiot' because one suggestion doesn't conform to your priors undermines your arguments, not theirs, and rather suggests to me that your commitment to evidence-based conclusions in this field is quite weak. Instead of branding the authors heretics, read the paper; there's plenty of interest there. You don't strike me as the kind of guy who'd get his health info from the Daily Mail.
     
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  27. dlk

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    As well as, a high dose of Justin Bieber:) (MSN & spent last 3 years in CV surgery)
     
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  28. Posture Guy

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    Thud and Blunder.....

    First, great response. You think well and communicate accurately and precisely. I like your style, man. And yeah, I'm definitely not a Daily Mail guy except for the chicks in bikinis.

    I read that link and my position remains intact. I have a few responses to that article. First, there is such a preponderance of data to strongly suggest that trans fats are a dietary hazard that to casually suggest that such "spreads" could play a role in reduction of cardiovascular disease is grossly irresponsible, in my opinion. If they're so good at meta analysis they should have no problem quickly determining that such fats cause metabolic havoc and should absolutely be avoided. I don't know of any credible nutritional researchers who would claim otherwise at this point. Folks don't agree on much these days, but on this point there is near unanimous consensus.

    Second, the problem with such meta analysis is that the conclusions that are drawn are worthless because the studies from which the data are drawn are so disparate and the number of confounding variables is so high that you simply can't assert anything with credibility.

    Do I think, for example, that someone who eats a lot of pizza with factory farmed cheese and eats a lot of fast food high in saturated fat from extremely polluted and grain fed animals could improve their mortality risk by cutting that crap out? Almost certainly. But is the culprit here saturated fat itself, or the types of fat the cohort is consuming? And what are they eating WITH that fat? My guess is that people who eat a lot of factory-farmed animal products probably also eat a lot of highly processed grains. People who take the care to eat organically-raised grassfed animals probably on whole consume far less flours and sugars than those who eat a more standard diet. So what, precisely, is driving these results? It's almost impossible to truly tell.

    We have plenty of evidence to suggest that inflammation is the core driver of heart disease, not elevated lipid panels. We are also seeing increasing evidence that factory farmed/grain fed beef which is very high in omega 6 fatty acids along with an astonishing array of toxic chemicals contributes to vascular inflammation. We are also seeing when people switch to organically raised and grassfed beef and cattle by products like grassfed butter, that standard inflammatory markers like c-reactive proteins and homocysteine (among others) begin to dramatically improve.

    So for me, such meta data analysis are not particularly valuable. But for me, the minute anyone suggests that consuming trans fats could be a pathway to improved health, I'm reasonably certain that I am indeed reading the thoughts of a moron who does not have the slightest idea what they are really talking about.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
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  29. Ano

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    +1.

    http://jonnybowdenblog.com/cholesterol-myth/
     
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  30. Soul

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    Saw this article this morning on the BMJ write up on rethinking saturated fat. The piece also has the recent Australian TV special that aired on heart disease, and saturated fats. I thought it good viewing.

    "Heart Specialist Calls for Major Repositioning on Saturated Fat, as it’s NOT the Cause of Heart Disease"

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...mail&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20131104Z1

    & part two of the Australian TV specials, this time on statin drugs, asking are they helpful or not.

    "Statins: Not for everyone…maybe not for anyone"

    http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statins/statins-everyone-maybe-anyone/
     
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  31. Posture Guy

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    Better late than never.
     
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  32. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Some recent news on fats, carbohydrates and cardiovascular disease -

    Saturated fat advice 'unclear'
    By Michelle Roberts
    http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26611861

    Are the old diet rules going under? Has anyone seen a glimmer of what to believe now concerning these diet issues? Any references?
     
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  33. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
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  34. movdqa

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    I have a bar of 85% Cacao at my desk this morning for heart disease prevention. I'm generally on a lower-carb (33%) diet though I sometimes bump that up when I'm running more.
     
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  35. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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  36. Posture Guy

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    I've said it before, I'll say it again, I've seen ZERO sound evidence to support the lipid theory of health.
     
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  37. GuyClinch

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    The only fats that really seem to be bad for you are trans fats - and fried vegetable (canola oil etc) fats. The reason is that they are both damaged by heat (and or modified).

    Not to go all Paleo but its hard to argue with the logic that we used to eat a lot of fat - and thus we are adapted to it. Ancient man wasn't cutting out fatty organs or the fatty part of an animal - they were eating it. Waste not want not. :p

    So we are adapted to eat all kind of fats...IMHO. We seem less capable of dealing with large amounts of sugar (This wasn't abundant during our evolutionary period) and large amount of processed starches (again likely rare).

    Fats are essential for human life - as are proteins. So It would be a pretty awful adaptation if they were 'bad' for us. That doesn't seem to be the case.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
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  38. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    An interesting point is that fried foods took off in the late nineteenth century as energy food for the working classes.

    But now work has been downsized the diet is unnecessary but culturally ingrained.
     
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  39. Posture Guy

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    Well put. The more studies we get, the more we find the lipid theory of heart disease is fundamentally flawed.

    One twist I'd give what you wrote is that factory farmed sources of saturated fats are toxic (in my opinion) because of the alterations that happen at the animal level. grain fed vs grass fed changes the fatty acid composition, hormones, anti biotics, pesticides, and so on. I want CLEAN sources of saturated fats with more omega 3s and fewer omega 6s.
     
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  40. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    The anger theory of heart disease remains undiminished. When careful factor analysis is done of all the type A personality studies and more recent personality factor studies, we find that sustained anger strongly predicts heart disease. Subsequent physiologic studies showed how anger induces changes in the adrenal axis and sympathetic nervous system, rendering platelets more sticky and leading to atherosclerotic plaque.
     
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  41. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    A guy that inspired me to try low-carb (actually lower carb at 33%) lost 95 pounds in about 18 months and his bloodwork numbers are all great. He has meat (fish, pork, red meat, chicken) several times a week and he isn't bashful about it. He's also on a relatively low calorie diet and does a lot of HIIT stuff - he typically does intense workouts every day and has a pretty decent home gym. He has scorned the low-fat diet stuff and showed me the stuff on sugar and carbs. It seems that we were sold on an approach that made the overall health of the country a lot worse - the packaged food companies and restaurants took full advantage of USDOA recommendations.

    So I watch this stuff and am not that surprised at what emerging research is showing.
     
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  42. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    ^Could you elaborate on the connection between the USDOA recommendations and packaged food companies/restaurants/overall health of the country please. Thanks.
     
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  43. r2473

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    That's a major caveat. So then on a practical level, understanding that virtually everyone eats factory farmed sources of saturated fats, how does that change or alter your recommendations (if it does)?
     
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  44. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    I thought all these epidemiology/longitudinal/meta-analyses studies RE food and nutrition were bupkis anyway? Why is this one any different?
     
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  45. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Your theory really ticks me off.:mad:

    Luckily as I age, I'm not as angry any more, I mostly just don't care or think things are hopeless. Is that better for my health?:confused:
     
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  46. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    #46
  47. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    By the way, this particular meta-analysis also indicates that omega-3's have no protective effect on developing heart disease-it is all about total fat...so don't worry about that expensive wild caught salmon and grass fed beef. :)
     
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  48. WildVolley

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    What particular meta-study are you referencing?
     
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  49. Posture Guy

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    Not sure I understand the question. My basic dietary approach is to eat as little food of any kind that is factory farmed as possible, and only when other alternatives are not readily available.

    I simply do not buy grain fed/factory farmed beef. Ever. I will eat it on occasion if I'm at a function or a restaurant and have no other suitable choices. If I have to, then I'll eat beef well before chicken. Factory farmed chicken is really, really scary stuff.
     
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  50. borg number one

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    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/04/01/mom-was-right-eat-lots-of-veggies-theyre-even-better-for-you-than-fruit/

     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
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