Cardiovascular Disease & Diet, Sugars & Fats, Statins..

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by Chas Tennis, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Well, most people won't be as conscientious as you are about the quality of the protein they consume. So for these people (and this includes myself), would you still suggest the diet with the factory raised chicken/pork/beef, or would you suggest something else?
     
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  2. Kevin T

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    Sorry for the confusion. Post #33, the second link Chas posted to revive this thread. The Omega-3 issue hasn't been discussed by the media outlets, as they've focused on the saturated fat angle. The data are derived from self-reported/food recall journals...notoriously inaccurate.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
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  3. WildVolley

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    Thanks.

    Yeah, that article didn't mention the Omega-3 issue at all.

    The latest fun study says that vegetarians in Austria are more likely to be sick than meat eaters.
     
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  4. borg number one

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    Here's info from the CDC website. Basically, eating more fruits and vegetables is very healthy. Of course, eating more of them at the expense of bad foods is an ideal diet adjustment to make (eat five to seven portions of fruits/vegetables a day).

    http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/fruitsvegetables/index.html

     
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  5. movdqa

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    This is going to be harder to do because of the drought in California and, perhaps the citrus problems in Florida. On the other hand, grains are plentiful and cheap.
     
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  6. OTMPut

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    They are b.s.
    Something that pseudo scientists enjoy doing it since it gives them a feeling of being a scientist from publishing papers.
     
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  7. OTMPut

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    It is amazing that people are so scared of dying that they forget to live. 30 years of a life well lived ought to be sufficient. And if it ends with a honorable, heroic death, then it is the best one could hope for.

    We are probably going through a human vanity bubble or mania. There is no sign it is going to burst though.
     
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  8. borg number one

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    Weather will certainly have an impact on some fruit/vegetable supply. Yet, there are often some imports that can help fill the shortage, depending on the produce. Lots of fruits and vegetables aren't cheap, yet they're so worth it. I suppose you can try growing as much on your own as well.
     
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  9. dman72

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    Back around the late 80's/early 90's, the USDA's food pyramid had grain as the base of a healthy diet...and it did not make any distinction between whole grains or heavily processed nutrient empty grains.

    http://tmwillingham.com/tag/new-usda-food-pyramid/

    Look at the original food pyramid.

    So you had pasta and white bread being touted as something you should be eating more often then vegetables or meat, and the companies that made these products advertised them as such, ie the "low fat" craze. Hey, Wonder Bread is low fat and fits the base of the pyramid, it must be good for you!!

    Meanwhile it was wrong on many levels.

    Even if you think grain is ok to eat, no one with any sense thinks that bleached flowers are healthy foods.
     
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  10. movdqa

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    There are various diets around the world but a look at those diets in countries with the best longevity are a good place to start to clear through the noise of special interests. The Japanese eat a lot of white rice but they're typically at or near the top on longevity. The Mediterranean does very well too.

    A diet for the best longevity may not be the best diet to lose a lot of weight though. Especially if you are also exercising while cutting calories which can be a tricky balance.
     
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  11. Bartelby

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    It's not quite that simple.

    The food industry certainly had a large effect on making grains the base of our diet, but it did reflect the energy rich and inexpensive nature of these foods and their historical importance to an industrial economy.

    The pyramid also put fats and sweets in the same use sparingly category, which is now seen as wrong, but it gives no basis for the low fat/high sugar foods that have been produced in the name of healthy eating.


     
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  12. dman72

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    With careful wording it did. High Fructose corn syrup was not easily identifiable as "sweets", which is really what it turns any food that it's put into, especially one that's already carb heavy.

    Also, the low fat thing hurt foods which are considered healthy, like avocado, and took my favorite cereal, cracklin' oat bran, off the shelf, because it had the "devil" coconut and palm oils in it. Meanwhile all the foods left had hydrogenated oils, which are far worse.
     
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  13. movdqa

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    Rice, in times of food scarcity, is a good thing as it packs a lot of calories in a format that can be easily stored and transported. In times of food surplus, though, it can result in obesity. I assume that wheat and corn served a similar purpose in the United States.
     
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  14. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The reality is that our food knowledge has vastly increased and these days recommendations reflect this knowledge.

    Health education doesn't achieve much however because food industry advertising has a far more powerful mis-educating effect.
     
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  15. Bartelby

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    Things like rice and pasta are quite amazing. The original instant heat and eat food.

    But I think the real problem in the West is probably elsewhere - bread carbs and fried foods.

    I've always like burgers and fries, but basically the bottom half of the burger bun is all you need as a carb on the plate.


     
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  16. r2473

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    I'm more interested in looking at the ACTUAL typical diet of Americans today vs. pre-1980's (just before the start of the so called obesity epidemic).

    I actually wouldn't look at diet alone, but rather the difference in "lifestyles". To be honest, I think most of us are quite well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
     
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  17. Kevin T

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    What is your occupation?
     
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  18. dman72

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    Well, if you've been alive for that long it's easy enough to see.

    People don't go outside as much...kids don't exercise as much, and people in general spend more time sitting in front of a screen then they did 30 years ago.

    I used to drink a lot of soda and ate tons of candy when I was a kid (something I rarely ever let my kids have), and I was thin as a rail until I turned 30 and started working a desk job.

    When were HFCS introduced?
     
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  19. movdqa

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    We have free soda, tea, coffee, sugar, hot chocolate, spring water, etc. in the office. Lots of new hires (those that aren't fitness fanatics - we get some of those too), gorge on the freebies and put on weight.
     
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  20. r2473

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    I thought it was the evil grain based food pyramid. But its actually HFCS and lack of exercise?

    Wait, don't tell me.....I bet the government recommended that everyone sit on their *** and eat bowls of HFCS (evil government :mad:)
     
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  21. Avles

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    Actually this doesn't seem to be accurate. From the study:

    They didn't find effects from dietary intake or supplementation, but it's not true that they found "no protective effect."

    Also I don't see anywhere that the meta-analysis said or implied that heart disease risk "is all about total fat." I didn't see any discussion of the effects of total fat consumption on heart disease, but it's possible I'm overlooking something.
     
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  22. Kevin T

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    They found no statistical significance, which is particularly important when doing a meta-analysis. The confidence intervals, with a handful of exceptions, approach/overlap zero=not very convincing. In addition, peer review after release pointed out a number of study errors, which the authors corrected. I can't link to PubMed from my uni account but 'The Economist' had a brief review recently:

    http://www.economist.com/news/scien...rs-your-health-what-sort-fat-matters-less-fat

    As for the "all about total fat", that is the prevailing opinion, based on the current science, by nearly every heart/cardiology/nutrition/lipid professional organization in North America, Europe and Japan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
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  23. Avles

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    Except it seems that the handful of exceptions include several types of circulating omega-3s. To be specific, the study says (on page 402):

    Please do correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but it appears that for all of these circulating omega-3's the finding of lowered heart disease risk was statistically significant (95% confidence interval). So again, it seems incorrect to say that they found no protective effect from omega-3's.

    Did these errors result in any substantive changes in their results or discussion?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
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  24. Kevin T

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    My understanding is that page 402 is suggesting that individuals with higher circulating blood levels of said Omega-3's appear to get some protective benefit but the 17 studies involving 75000 subjects produced no evidence that supplementation reduces heart disease risk. Chowdhury admits as much here:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...mega-3-may-not-protect-heart-study-finds.html

    And here:

    http://consumer.healthday.com/vitam...t-may-not-help-your-heart-studies-685879.html

    To your second point, the largest objections by my colleagues and experts in the field (not me, I'm a Peds and Digestive diseases guy) was the overall rigor of the analysis. It appears that one study was noted as negative by the author but was actually strongly positive for the heart protective benefits of Omega-3s. Guyanet has a nice review:

    http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2014/03/corrections-to-new-review-paper-on.html#more

    I also enjoyed today's blog RE kcal intake.

    http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2014/04/calorie-intake-and-us-obesity-epidemic.html#more
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
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  25. Avles

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    That is my understanding as well, and that's why I pointed out that your characterization of the results ("This particular meta-analysis also indicates that omega-3's have no protective effect on developing heart disease") was not accurate.

    Evidence for a protective effect of circulating omega-3's might be reason enough for some people to continue consuming them. So "forget about the salmon" does not seem like a statement that follows from the study's results.
     
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  26. Kevin T

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    First, make sure your sarcasm detector is working. :)

    This is a tennis message board, not JAMA. As this study dealt with consumption/supplementation patterns, I would imagine most posters were interested in the results related to Omega-3 CONSUMPTION. The author himself admits omega-3 supplementation showed no effect on decreasing incidence of heart disease. Other recent studies have produced similar results. This is also the opinion of the large majority of reviewers/organizations. Those who feel this study was poorly done and that Omega-3s do provide a heart benefit (myself included, if from food sources, not supplements) felt the study results are incorrect and irresponsible.

    Second, linking circulating levels with consumption levels is a large leap and one that this study, this author and multiple reviews are not making. This is true for a number of vitamins, minerals and pharmaceuticals. I believe we likely have similar opinions on this issue. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2014
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  27. dman72

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    It is possible for there to be more than one factor, right Mr. Black and White?
     
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  28. r2473

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    Of course there's more than one factor. I was just poking fun at how most of us tend to latch on to one factor and ascribe all of the world's ills to it.

    The new flavor of the month seems to be carbs (grains, sugar). Naturally there is some truth to this, but it is also important to keep in mind that "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".
     
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  29. Kevin T

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    R2,

    Read the last link in post 74. :)
     
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  30. WildVolley

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    That link basically says the whole situation is hopeless because food tastes better today, is cheaper, and people lack sufficient willpower not to stuff themselves with huge quantities of it.
     
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  31. r2473

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    That was really interesting.

    Especially the video "Why we overeat". That is the best explanation I've ever heard. Comprehensive yet concise and seemed quite objective to me.

    Most of these types of scientific explanations seem to "prove what they already know" shall we say (and suspiciously seem to further and promote their own commercial interests).
     
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  32. Kevin T

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    I really like Guyanet and his blog. You know me, I avoid obesity like the plague but he is always easy to listen to and well spoken.
     
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  33. Kevin T

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    After working with 15+ pediatric and adult patients per day over the last 12 years, I've pretty much come to the same conclusion. :)
     
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  34. r2473

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    I'd like to avoid obesity, but in the words of the Counting Crows, "How'm I gonna keep myself away from me?"

    (I scored a 30+ BMI at my last insurance biometric screening. To make it even funnier, they recorded my waist measurement at 34).
     
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  35. Kevin T

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    Heh, heh, heh. You're moving up in the risk category. :) When I was completing my military physical (and at the peak of good shape at 6'3" 215lb), the Doc had to write "larger boned and muscular" to the side because you get listed as overweight. I'm now at a 28 BMI at 225lb and a 36" waist, so don't feel bad. I have the lower body of a rugby player, so that makes me feel better. :)
     
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  36. movdqa

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    Does that come with six-pack abs?
     
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  37. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Contemporary society is afflicted with chronic levels of boredom and other forms of psychological distress. Lack of well-being is at the source of the problem. A lot of people are just not happy.
     
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  38. WildVolley

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    Ha ha, fatty!:twisted:

    From your posting I always imagined you as an emaciated marathoner/distance runner type.

    I too have a waist measurement around 34", but then I have guns like Federer, so people are always surprised that my BMI is only 23.
     
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  39. r2473

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    Being obese and the 34" waist thing are just jokes. These insurance screenings are pretty much random numbers, but that's what they reported. I'm 6'1" and weigh 215. My waist is nowhere near 34". Imagine if I was that thin at this weight. I'd look like a slightly shorter version of Terrell Owens in his glory days.

    I was running 20-30 miles a week during the winter at a 8 min/mile pace. Once in a while I'd do 7:30 pacing. That's about as fast of a pace as I can maintain these days. But 8 min/mile pacing give me what I need. It's a "hard/comfortable" pace, keeping me ~150 bpm and I can recover.

    When I was really running I'd do 40-50 miles a week (intervals, "easy" running, and hard pace running). Easy running was 7 min/miles and the hard pacing was anywhere from 5:30 to 6:30 miles. In those days I was the emaciated long distance guy weighing 155-160.
     
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  40. Bartelby

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    It's hard not to imagine a waist of around 38 at 215 pounds, but I have a fitness issue more than a weight one.
     
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  41. WildVolley

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    If you'd just eat more bacon and cut out those carbs you could look like a more ripped Owens. And do HIIT, and squat 2.5x your body weight.

    I haven't run a mile without stopping to rest in over a decade, so you'd beat me. When I was playing a lot of tennis, I figure I could do a decent 1-mile time (maybe under six minutes?), but then I doubt I could keep the pace up after that.

    A friend of mine ran a marathon doing only tennis training in the six months leading up to running it. He ran in under 4 hours, but I think it was more of a bucket list thing.

    I look more like a distance runner, even though I never run distance. I can actually put on muscle, but I need to lift and force feed myself in order to do it. My secret to staying thin is to never have gotten fat. My body tends to maintain around 180lbs, so unless I radically change my diet or activity level, I can easily maintain that level. After an ankle injury a few years ago, I started to put on fat for the first time in my life, due to lack of exercise and depression from the injury. I forced myself to do non-tennis exercise and the weight dropped.
     
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  42. r2473

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    True dat. I got fat when I decided to lift weights and "bulk up". Looking back, I wish I hadn't done it. I think I trained my body how to be fat. I'm now in the process of training my body to be thin again.

    Last year at this time I had dieted down to 195 and probably about 10%. Problem is, I lost the weight really quickly and when I stopped dieting, I shot right back up.

    So now I'm losing weight in 2-3lb. chunks. Each time I drop a few pounds, I let my body acclimate to the new weight. I've lost about 8lbs. so far and feel like I can eat what I want and it won't come back. I have about 8-10lbs. more to go.
     
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  43. Kevin T

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    It's interesting how different people respond to exercise. I may be the opposite, in that I tend to lose weight most efficiently with strength training vs cardio. I used to play squash religiously 3-5 days/week and could go out and run a 10 miler without issue but my weight never really changed that much. On the other hand, I can cut running back to 1-2 days/week and just do 20-30 minutes of intense bodyweight exercises 3-4 days/week and get in great shape. It's a good thing I enjoy strength training a little more than running, I suppose. :)

    By the way, r2, have you tried Hoka One One shoes? It may not be an issue with you, but considering you're close to my size, they really make running fun again for me. I haven't had any back issues in over 2 years (knock on wood) but they are the first shoe I've tried that allow me to run 2-3 days/week virtually pain free (not a twinge of back pain/spasm). You look funny running down the road but they're the real deal.
     
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  44. r2473

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    I found Guyenet's Energy Homeostasis/Leptin story starting around minute 15 in the video you linked earlier quite interesting. The entire lecture was very interesting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp2p4TdLn_8

    I can lose weight in different ways. It's always hard. But the hardest part for me now seems to be reseting my body to a lower weight that it wants to maintain naturally.

    Picking the right running shoe is important. I found what works for my running style over 20 years ago and haven't had to change, even as I got heavier. I've actually never had a running related injury that didn't clear up in a day or two.

    By the way, what exactly is wrong with your back, I've forgotten? And how did you hurt your back, any idea?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
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  45. Bartelby

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    I've always thought that it must be hard for body builders used to eating a lot to cope with life after bulking up.

    This was people's favourite thesis about Marlon Brando once upon a time. I was one who found body building hard to sustain.



     
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  46. WildVolley

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    This is an interesting topic. I don't know what the state of the art is on getting the body to reset to a lower weight.

    You seem to be doing the correct thing from what I've been told. A lot of people seem to have trouble if they drop weight very rapidly. If you can drop less than 10% of weight at a time and then allow your body to thrive while not having the same fat stores, some people think the new set point will take.

    My other theory is that if you can maintain your strength while dropping weight, it will be easier to maintain the weight. It is usually much easier to gain strength when you're gaining weight and not the other way around. Dr. Squat used to have a theory that you could gain strength and drop weight by varying how much you eat. It was sort of a crude form of intermittent fasting - he advocated eating huge quantities of food some days and then very little on others.

    I'm thinking of doing some intermittent fasting for healing of old injuries rather than weight loss. There seems to be some evidence that the genetic programs triggered by fasting can be beneficial to repair.
     
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