Changing Grip for TE Problem?

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by user92626, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Hi All,

    Does anyone know if changing grip, say from SW to more Western, would help cure a very minor TE-like ache?

    I figure that my sw grip requires me to pronate hard, gradually closing the racket face, as the racket travels to front for topspin and this puts so much tension of my arm (the darker side). Thus, causing the ache.

    Yesterday in my living room, I rotated the grip more to Western, and observed that I would not need to pronate as much to keep the racket face closed. The arm came over to the other side (end of follow-through) like you would use your open hand to pat the shoulder.

    Is my observation credible? If so, I recommend that those with TE start to think about grip and change it so not to put too much tension, overwork the arm muscles and tendons. However, changing grip is a big deal cuz you might not be dialed in for a while nor your strength might be up for it. So, think about it.
     
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  2. El Diablo

    El Diablo Hall of Fame

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    Give it a try but I'd be surprised if it made much difference. People get TE riding a bike, writing, anything done with squeezing while the elbow is flexed. Pronation is not thought to be a notable factor.
     
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  3. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Does TW sell Western grips?
     
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  4. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Very interesting!

    I only notice an ache when I turn my arm over as in to check my watch. I have heard people with severe TE wouldn't even lift and drink a cup of coffee.


    I figure TE comes from tearing or damaging the tendon connecting the forearm muscles with the elbow bone, and you do that from overstretching, overusing it.

    If I swing my arm around the body without turning the forearm at all, I'm not feeling any pressure on the forearm's outer side, I assume that that muscle would be less used, thus less chance of getting damaged (if it's not strong enough). The bicep, the chest, the back shoulder blade muscles get used more.
     
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  5. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    TW Instructions hand it out for free! :)
     
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  6. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    In the book Biomechanical Principles of Tennis by Knudson, he discusses the angle of the wrist and its importance for the one hand backhand. He says that pro backhands have an extended wrist while amateurs often have a flexed wrist. More injuries can result with the flexed wrist 1hbh. Search the terms to clearly understand these anatomical positions of the wrist, extended & flexed. He discussed in detail his reasoning. When I look at videos of pro 1hbhs I believe that he is correct. Also flexing the wrist puts more tension on the tendon injured in tennis elbow so his description makes sense.

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Biomechanical_Principles__Technique/descpage-BIOMECH.html

    Some recent threads with Golfer's elbow(GE) in the title had relevant discussions and references for both GE and TE.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=417591

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=409393

    If you have pain you probably have an injury. Read the recent threads on tennis elbow especially those warning that playing on it can lead to chronic injury.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
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  7. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Thanks, Chas and those that contributed.

    Yesterday I tried a westernish grip and it wasn't successful. It felt too foreign for me. So, I switched back to my sw but this time I kept my grip looser (when I remembered) and wrist firm in one position, ie no more flexing back and forth, and I reminded myself not to pronate into contact.

    All of this really turned things around for me. I saw a lot more power and comfort in my FH and this morning the "ache" is no more than the kind you got from doing a house moving.

    Oh, I also weighed up my racket handle with additional 6 grs of silly putty, making it 10pts HL, 331grams static weight. It felt hefty and sluggish at first, but when I was warmed and revved up the hitting, it became unbelieavably solid, and this was only against average power hitters. Can't wait to test it against hard hitters.
     
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  8. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Where is your pain located?
     
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  9. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    If you straighten your arm, there'd be a hole near the elbow. My pain is right in there. If I press hard on that hole, the pain would be more exxaggerated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
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  10. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    Tennis Elbow or Golfer's Elbow questionable. ?

    If you hold your right arm straight out from the shoulder with the palm facing down, TE would be upper-outer right side, GE would be lower-inner side. I think the hole that you speak of is in the middle more or less (45 d. angle or so?). Search for the clear illustrations that Charliefedererer has provided in similar threads, they show where the injured tendons attach to the elbow bones.

    To my uncertain knowledge your pain location does not sound like typical TE or GE so you need a proper diagnosis.

    When there is a joint problem sometimes the list of well known possibilities is 25 or more long. Drs can diagnose or at least limit the possibilities.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
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  11. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

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    If you can take a video look for impacting the ball when your elbow is hyperextended (slightly beyond straight).

    A long time ago I had a friend who impacted the ball during his serve with a hyperextended elbow and other technique issues........ We picked up this unusual motion in high speed films. It almost hurt to look at the films. He had some kind of elbow pain that I can't recall.

    It could also be one of many other technique or injury issues.
     
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  12. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    My pain is manageable. In fact I think it's getting better. But these days it seems like the initial 15 minutes of a hitting session, ie warmup, feels alot more painful, stiff and injurous than before.


    My pain is where the dot is.
    [​IMG]

    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
     
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  13. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I have this question for everyone:

    Is your arm supposed to be like completely normal, maybe even stronger, no kind of ache, pain or discomfort after you have played for years, 2-3 times a week, 2-3 hrs each time???

    I find it's hard to believe that. Take walking or hiking for very basic examples, if you do that extensively (playing tennis like described above is extensive enough), you WILL get pain and discomfort in your legs, no?
     
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  14. charliefedererer

    charliefedererer Legend

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    I was first introduced to the concept of rest by a friend who was a collegiate swimmer. He worked out and swam year round. But he said it was very important to take a month off to let accumulated small injuries heal.


    Do you take time off each year?

    Do find as you get older you may have to take more time off, or take time off more than once a year?


    USTA Recovery in Tennis http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/dps...ence/RECOVERY PROJECT 22410 EMAIL VERSION.pdf
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
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  15. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    http://www.massagetherapy.com/articles/index.php/article_id/1199/Tennis-Elbow

    TE more commonly occurs where the X marks the spot. According to the link (above), 90% of TE cases occur at the tendons that attach the extensor carpi radialis brevis muscle to the lateral epicondyle. If I'm not mistaken, the location that you indicate is the attachment of the extensor carpi radialis longus to the lateral supracondylar ridge. TE is often referred to as Lateral Epicondylitis. This label does not appear to apply to longus (ECRL) attachment. Either this is a uncommon version of TE or it is not really TE at all.

    The causes for the inflammation of the brevis tendon are undoubtedly somewhat different than those of the longus attachment. The longus muscle is involved in the extension and radial deviation of the wrist/hand. But then the brevis muscle is also involved in these articulations of the wrist. Note that the longus muscle inserts (on the dorsal side) at the base of the index finger. The brevis muscle inserts at the base of the middle finger. Perhaps this provides an important clue as to the cause of your (overuse?) injury.

    http://www.massagetoday.com/mpacms/mt/article.php?id=13552

    Perhaps these differences will suggest something to CF or someone else more knowledgeable about anatomy than I.
    .
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012
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  16. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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  17. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Awesome graphic, SA.

    I'm glad to hear that I do not have the usual painful TE that we often hear about.

    I could feel my pain is around where the label Lateral Epicondyle points. I would think the connective tissues (the reddish area) between the muscles and the bones are most subjected to pressure and tearing when we repeatedly hit violent FH.
     
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  18. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Hmm..I learn new things everything...and sometimes the hard way :(

    No, I absolutely haven't taken any time off from playing. I believed that if I had sound techniques, proper warm up and scale back a bit, I'd be fine. I need to change this thinking.
     
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  19. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    How is that elbow issue coming along? Not sure that I would be relieved that it is not the usual TE. With TE, we know that it is usually from a 1-handed BH rather than the FH if it is tennis related. Your case is a bit more of a mystery. Are you certain that it is related to your FH strokes and not your BH?

    TE is normally felt just below the elbow joint. I am not sure that the reddish area in the last graphic is. I assumed that the white areas represented the tendons where the tendonitis occurs. Does anyone know what the reddish area is supposed to be? Is it also tendon fibers? inflamed tendon tissue?

    From your description, it sounds like the pain emanates from above the elbow joint. My guess is that it was close to the part of the humerus just above Lateral Epicondyle -- which is the ridge immediately above this = the Lateral Supracondylar ridge. This is where the longus muscle attaches. Does this sound like it could be the point of pain?
     
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  20. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    SA,

    I called it TE-like ache for lack of words.

    We use the whole arm for hitting, it'd surprise me if everyone gets the very same pain at the same place. Yesterday I played with a lady and in the post match talk, she casually mentioned that she also has a pain and pointed to the same spot as mine. What interesting is she continues to play tennis like I do.

    This pain does not stop us from playing...

    My arm is feeling better than ever since the pain started. It just feels like I just have done a lot of lifting the day before, but a bit sharper at this spot. Unlike in the past, I now have to be careful with hitting. Any mishitting or muscling at the elbow joint gives me a jarring pain. So, I have to remember to do better preparation, hit the sweetspot and exert power from shoulder. What also has helped is that I no longer flex my wrist or pronate too much.

    SA, I think you've played this sport for a long time already. How's your arm? Does it feel strong and like you never know tennis?
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2012
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  21. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I cured my tennis elbow by learning to keep a loose grip thoughout my entire swing on every shot, including at contact.
     
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  22. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    It appears that I've completely healed this pain in my arm. My most recent hitting session was last night, albeit only 2 hrs. Today my arm feels fine and strong.

    It took me a few sessions where I focused on keeping comfortable, minimal wrist movement, and going back to my Bab APD which has a higher SW than my Speeds. I'm batting the ball as hard as my strength allows. :)
     
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