Cheating

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by Brocolt, Jun 5, 2011.

  1. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    I would not leave the court your a parent first and protecting your child comes first, if the other parent said something bad to your kid then she is low enough in class to spit in her face ! Then go out to lunch and ask your son " did you learn anything today"?
     
    #51
  2. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    /////////////////////////
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
    #52
  3. andromeda

    andromeda New User

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    Lesson learned by both of us. After talking to other parents in our age bracket, they advised me that I have to practically sit on top of these parents to keep them quiet. I also told my son that if the parents say things during the match that he is allowed to tell the refs that the parents are interfering in the match and ask that they move elsewhere. And, yes, he did learn a LOT during that match. As did I!!!!
     
    #53
  4. andromeda

    andromeda New User

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    Forgot to add that I spoke to the older boy and thanked him for speaking up. He told me that he's played many matches next to this kid and that the kid does this in every match no matter who he's playing. He said to me, "Not every one of his opponents can possibly be cheating him in the same way. So, I'm guessing it's him who's the problem on court." So, even though my son didn't win, I didn't get too worked up about the match itself. Obviously, my son has some work to do, as well, and we'll be working on how to handle those toxic matches in the future.
     
    #54
  5. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Two issues with this comment:

    First, is there some reason you refuse to use capitals, commas, and proper grammar?
    The reader is not suppose to struggle when they read someone's writing.
    Truly, how difficult can this be to write a coherent sentence?

    Second, this is the advice you are advocating? Spitting in someone face...
    This is the face of why tennis parents are getting such a bad name.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011
    #55
  6. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Awful advise. There's a hundred better more civilized ways to handle this. You never seem to learn.
     
    #56
  7. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    This is a coach of some sort? And you've been named the number one coach? Ouch. No thanks.
     
    #57
  8. Baxter

    Baxter Professional

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    There's probably some self-rating going on there.

    I've watched my son, who is now 17 and playing on a high school team, play many matches in local tournaments and at his school. His calls - and usually his opponent's calls -are very generous. If it's close or even an inch or two out on the side line or baseline they call it in, and they're even more generous on first serves, sometimes calling it in when it's close to a foot out!
     
    #58
  9. Tarrantennis

    Tarrantennis New User

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    Of course kids do cheat. So do adults. But as a tennis coach who has sat next to a hundred parents watching their children play - honestly, parents aren't the best judge of whether their child's opponent has made a bad call.
    The most logical, caring parents can suddenly change into illogical half-blind obsessives when they see their children questioning the call of their opponent. When the cgilkd starts crying and turns to a parent for help, it is instinctive for a parent to take that child's part.
    When I was a kid I was a county and National junior in Britain, and my parents saw me play just 3 times in tournaments. And maybe 80% of kids were at tourneys without their parents. And I don't remember more than a half-dozen arguments about cheating in my whole junior career. There were a couple of kids known for cheating, but peer pressure sorted that out pretty much.
    Of course, times have changed. Kids don't make their own way to tourneys - parents are the taxi. But my advice to parents - if your kid looks at you a lot when playing, or complains about cheating, or complains generally - just leave them to it. Take them to the tourney, then leave, and let them phone you when it's time to go home. Let tennis be their thing, not yours.
    And if its their thing, not yours, chance are they'll love it, and keep playing into adulthood.
     
    #59
  10. Tarrantennis

    Tarrantennis New User

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    What he would learn is that his father has no class or self-respect. This person cannot be a coach.
     
    #60
  11. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    On Sunday after a close match someone who was watching said that if the lines were chalked, then a lot of chalk would fly up....it sucks but it happens.
     
    #61
  12. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    ^This past Sunday, the Chalk did not suck. It flew.
     
    #62
  13. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    haha good thing you said this, i wasnt making a wimbledon joke, i really did play on a tournament on sunday, a mixed doubles. haha
     
    #63
  14. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Hhaha, I got it. It was just my attempt at combining and satirizing the thing you said sucked about your mxdbls match...with the original tagline for the movie Full Metal Jacket (In Viet Nam, the wind doesn't blow. It sucks.)

    BTW, I got a kick out of your post because "Chalk flew up!" is one of those lines every tennis player would love a chance to use. Not in a whiny way like Mac, but in a funny, but assertive way.

    Anyway, speaking of funny-yet-assertive, I got hooked a little bit about two weeks ago. One really bad call in the second game. I smiled, looked the guy square in the eye and asked if he wants me to hook him back right now or later in this set. He smiled. He kept that point, but there was not one more bad call the rest of the match.

    So, as much as I am completely opposed to the retaliatory hook, I kind of learned from this thread...and used the IDEA of it (threatening it) with a good result.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
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  15. FedExpress 333

    FedExpress 333 Professional

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    Just yell: WTF DO YOU MEAN IT WAS OUT!!!! THE DAMN CHALk FLEW UP!!!!!

    Itl work.

    lol jk
     
    #65
  16. Esti

    Esti New User

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    Same thing happen to me in high school, except I was playing doubles. My partner is one of those nice guys, but if you get him angry - he'll blow up. We played on a windy day and we were up in the first set 4-1 but the opposing team started making some really bad calls, especially on my service. I let it go, arguing for a little but not too long. Every game we switched on, my coach would tell me the balls are flying in, but they're just making bad calls. This made my partner extremely mad.

    Second set, same thing happened; horrible line calls. We ended up winning in a tie breaker but my partner had a few things to say to them. It got so bad that we wanted to call a line judge but my coach didn't approve of it. So we went into the super-tie breaker with frustration. On the very first point - they called my partners serve out - which was clearly in the box. I argued, "How can you call that out when your partner, whose standing next to the line, didn't?". I questioned his partner and he didn't say a word, just like in the other points they cheated us. My partner blew up, throwing his racket and such. My coach pulled us over and told us to default, because they obviously wanted to win this match so bad that they would cheat us out.
    Now, at that time, I was so mad I wanted to keep playing. However, my partner was completely broken down and my coach told me that there was no way he could play.

    Thinking about it now, I regret defaulting that match. It was really stupid. I wish I just called a line judge and everything would've been fine, but I put my pride and sportsmanship on and I shouldn't have. I've never called a line judge before. So if you get anything out of this story, call a line judge if the cheating doesn't stop. It'll save time, frustration, and maybe even a loss.
     
    #66
  17. mojojojo

    mojojojo Rookie

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    .....................
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
    #67
  18. CitationJet

    CitationJet Rookie

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    Do yourselves a favor and conduct a search for this user, and if you do, you'll discover who Number1Coach really is and why this sort of "advice" is being slathered onto this thread.

     
    #68
  19. legends70

    legends70 New User

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    This is the rule i live by when i make my calls, or if an opponens makes a bad call. It pains me to see players being taken advantage of by cheaters and not standing my ground. Recently, in a clost 3rd set tie break i played, i was up 8-5 and it was my opponent's serve. won both points, 8-7. before i served the next point, opponent asks "Isn't the score 8-8?" i explained my reasoning and held my ground, and came to concluding the correct score of 8-7. That's the best advice i have against cheaters, stand your ground!
     
    #69
  20. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Are you suggesting that she should've spit in her face.
     
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  21. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    I saw a girl in Athens, GA serve and call the score 8-9 in the final set tie-breaker. The girl then lost the point match over, right? NO! The other girl went to shake her hand and the server then said, "no I said it was 9-8 me. Now it is 9-9. Of course this was not the correct score. The line judge came over and made the girls go back to 8-8. Then the cheater won. This was in the finals. It was the worst thing I have seen in junior tennis in a long time.
     
    #71
  22. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    .......................
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
    #72
  23. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    I think the biggest problem is that our Kids see other Kids Cheating like crazy and they start to think Cheating is OK since so many other kids do it.
    It is that "Everyone else does it so why not me mentality". So if you are AAA Parent,,,,Awsome parent,,,,,you will be able to teach your kiddo,,,,Why it is such a BAD thing to Cheat even if other kids are doing it.

    This is a TEST of Character of the Inner Self. As a parent, if you can teach your child this lesson, you will have succeeded in making your child a GREAT human being for the REST of his LIFE. because this lesson will translate into every other aspect of their life in the future.
     
    #73
  24. Fedace

    Fedace Banned

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    Or you can do what Jim Courier did. Courier said " hey if the other kid cheats on a call that is obvious,,,,i used to just call next 2 balls OUT,,,,no matter where it lands. It could be 3 feet inside the line,,,it is OUT. It could be in the middle of the court,,,,it is OUT".

    I would not recommend this course of action..
     
    #74
  25. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    Feddie, I know you're trying to help but your rational is the furthest from why kids cheat. It's because they want to win, for all the wrong reasons and motivations. I've gone into this in detail, so have others.
     
    #75
  26. tennisdad65

    tennisdad65 Hall of Fame

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    The amount of cheating in Junior Tennis bothers me so much that I had to bump this :).

    In YOUR minds, could the USTA try and improve this situation and how?
    Is this a topic they currently discuss, or do they just sweep it under the rug as not a problem?

    What are the options? I have heard these options thrown around when discussing this issue with guys I play with.
    1) Refs for each match. These refs should being paid by higher entry fees... We would probably end up paying an extra $30-50 per tournament entered.
    2) Every player has to have a parent/guardian ref other matches or other age group matches, where they do not have their kids entered.
     
    #76
  27. CoachDad

    CoachDad Rookie

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    Option 1 is the best. But knowing junior tennis parents, the refs would take a verbal beating and losses would still be blamed on something.
     
    #77
  28. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    #1 would never fly. The parents already complain about the high entry fees to most tournaments. Considering umpires are paid between $100-150 per day, if you have a tournament using 10 courts, to have a chair umpire on every court, you would need approximately 15 umpires, which comes out to possibly $2,000 per day just for umpires.

    For #2, you can have a court monitor stand at the net post and make overrules on clear mistakes, but usually court monitors are not trained in officiating, and don't know the rules. Sometimes the parents just have their kid go to the tournament with their coach. The coach isn't going to go monitor other courts when his player is not on court, and the parents certainly aren't going to pay the coach extra to babysit other courts. Sometimes, the parents have to work and can only get enough time off to watch their kid's match, and won't stick around to watch other matches.

    Neither of these two ideas are realistic possibilities.
     
    #78
  29. Tcbtennis

    Tcbtennis Professional

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    Where I live tournaments range in price from $33-$45. An additional $30-$50 would be absolutely ridiculous and if people already complain about tennis being a sport for the rich, this would add flame to the fire. I think that trying to find tennis playing teens to volunteer to act as line judges would be a better idea. Some high schools require volunteer hours as a graduation requirement. High schoolers who play tennis and know the rules would be better than hiring extra refs. If the concern is preventing cheating, you don't need someone who knows the rules per se just someone who knows when a ball is in or out.
     
    #79
  30. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Trained volunteer chair umpires might work for some tournaments. There are enough adults interested in junior tennis that I think many volunteers could be found.

    Though I would hate to get adults involved in the matches more than they already are as the adults seem worse than the children in many cases.
     
    #80
  31. andfor

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    Teaching kids how to handle cheating needs to be the first step. Focusing on how bad it is, (I go to many tournaments and it's not bad) just puts excuses in kids heads. Kids need to stand up for themselves and go get a line judge on the 2nd or no more than 3rd bad call. Kids need to know that a bad call or two will unintentionally take place every match and that 1 or two calls is not going to cause them to lose. Put built in excuses in kids heads and they'll never reach their full potential.
     
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  32. Korso

    Korso Semi-Pro

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    I have been teaching my 3 kids the last 2 years and we often talk about how to handle yourself on the court. If someone cheats they play harder. The person cheating often has low confidence and is looking for a way into the head of the player. That should throw up a green flag to step up and focus. I also teach them never to call a ball out that they are not sure of and let your game be your voice. Cheap mental tactics is disrespectfull.
     
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  33. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    Very well said.
     
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  34. bdudaday

    bdudaday New User

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    Here's a good article about hooking in the juniors:
    http://tennisinsiders.com/?post_type=featured_story&p=80
    One idea would be to have a profile on each junior player that tracks the amount of over-rules. This way you could pay more attention to the frequent hookers and trust the kids with a perfect track record. Interesting idea.
     
    #84
  35. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    At a certain point, everyone knows who the cheaters are.
    Called a reputation.
     
    #85
  36. tennis1970

    tennis1970 New User

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    I agree. Reputation builds fast. While the cheater may get a quick gain and win the match... In the end the cheater loses
    I have noticed very early on the kids know who these cheaters are. Often they tend to get isolated at the tournaments while the honest kids pack together as good buddies. Some of them can't find doubles partners, or even worse two cheaters play together
    Some bad line calls are just mistakes. It's easy for a parent to make a sideline call...we're not playing in the match, on the run, hot, tired, or in the sun. Real cheating though usually becomes noticeable after regular patterns develop.
     
    #86
  37. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Great post. Agree with you 1,000% on your read on cheating. I don't think there's a cheating epidemic in junior tennis. Is there some occasional bad vision during a match? Sure. Are there a few kids that happen to be repeat offenders in the bad vision department? Sure. Kids can be taught how to deal with these situations.

    Look at the unforced errors:questionable call ratio. I think you'll find there's certainly room for improvement in the unforced errors department.
     
    #87
  38. Woolybugger

    Woolybugger Rookie

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    +100. This is one of the best responses I've read. Wholeheartedly agree that you just keep doing the right thing and it will all work out. There is a Ref that will make sure that everything is fair... if not immediately then eventually.
     
    #88
  39. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    I really like the honor of Michael, and on the right playing field, this may be possible, but on a competitive junior circuit like southern California you could get hooked 15 times in certain matches if you don't fight back and lose many critical matches. We need to help correct the problem as well as concern ourselves with demonstating good behavior. This is the conundrum.
     
    #89
  40. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Mitch Bridge,

    I am really glad you are posting on the forum.

    Many parents on here, myself included, are so tired of a poster coming on and stating some fact,
    but either they have no kid playing junior tennis, their kid is little and they have only been to a few matches,
    or they themselves are engaging in some questionable behavior and are willing to look the other way.

    So, I appreciate that you have witnessed junior tennis on a broader level and give us your insight.

    Thanks.
     
    #90
  41. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    I thought most on here were or are tennis parents...no?
     
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  42. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    What is your advice for juniors during tournament matches on how to deal with being cheated?

    What should he/she ideally do?

    After a few points, the ref usually leaves.
     
    #92
  43. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    I agree with Mitch, Tennis5 and others that kids should not just let cheaters cheat.

    Although I advocate honesty and fair play, I definitely do not want my kids or any kids "being taken advantage" of by cheaters.

    Another life skill they need to learn is to defend themselves, speak up or if necessary....get the referee to rectify the situation.
    Of course, this needs to be done in a "civil way" and after they already tried giving a benefit of the doubt to that person.
     
    #93
  44. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Soianka,

    I'd like to hear what will be his suggestions too. I think Mitch is prob. on court right now.
    Our coach used to tell my kids to up their game and win more clearly (easily said than done esp. when it's a close match) and not playing close to the lines.
    I am sure it's gotta be more practical suggestions out there.
     
    #94
  45. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    Make sure that you are being cheated two or even three times and go find an umpire. If that umpire REFUSES to stay on the court than you have to decide how you want to play this. If you were in a boxing match and your opponent is fighting dirty with elbows, head butts, etc, and the referee won't do anything about it, you will need to fight dirty also to keep the playing field even and for safety reasons. In tennis, your safety is not a concern, so you have to decide how you want to proceed on an individual basis-level playing field or uneven playing field. In top level college tennis, if the umpire is agreeing with every call, and a player is being cheated he will adjust his calls accordingly.

    You can also try refusing to play on without an umpire as it is your right to have an official help with your match.
     
    #95
  46. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    Is that a rule?
    I have witnessed some wild matches where the kids asking for a ref to stay, and the ref says no.... And the ref says they have to play.
     
    #96
  47. tennisconsultcom

    tennisconsultcom Rookie

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    Cheating in tennis, especially in junior tennis is a huge problem. I asked our expert Allen Fox to write a special article about that and give his advice how to behavior with a cheating opponent on the court. Here is link to the article http://wp.me/p2iyrR-5I
     
    #97
  48. chalkflewup

    chalkflewup Hall of Fame

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    Is it important to know how to deal with a cheater in tennis? Absolutely! Is cheating a "huge" problem in junior tennis? Absolutely not...in my opinion.

    I watch hundreds of junior tennis matches every year, many in Florida and other national tournaments across the US. In the last week two weeks, I've watched 12 to 15 complete matches and another 20 partial matches. In that time, I saw one match that required an official on court full time because of cheating. Other than that, the matches went smoothly with 2 or 3 instances of a player asking an official to watch his/her court.

    Again, I do believe cheating happens in junior tennis. I just don't believe it to be this huge ship without a rudder.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
    #98
  49. Milan

    Milan Rookie

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    Very Sad state in American Junior Tennis with this Cheating nonsense.

    Terrible Values. I think before too long, technology will be so cheap that almost every club will have Hawkeye technology:)

    Until then, kids need to be suspended 2 years if caught cheating blatantly...That will stop them
     
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  50. Woolybugger

    Woolybugger Rookie

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    Parents play a HUGE role in juniors cheating. If dad emphasizes winning/losing above everything else, the kid will try to win at all costs. If dad emphasizes good sportsmanship, respect for the opponent, and just giving your all on the court, then kids will tend to play fair and square.

    It all starts at home. If I see a cheater, it's because their parents have raised one.

    That being said, also give your opponent the benefit of the doubt. There are many bad calls that are unintentional. Not every opponent is a cheater.
     

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