Cheetah, the heel thing

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by boramiNYC, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    Sorry I'm on my phone so I'll see if I can find a clip later. Meanwhile i think you're thinking too hard on this. most good players and virtually all pros do this. during the loading and coiling the upper body the weight is on the heel. and as you unload weight transfers to inside ball of the foot for push off to any direction. i'm refering to this process. this cant be done with the weight equally distributed to both feet in a very wide stance, which our college bound buddy seems to be doing. so more planted heel on the right foot for loading was my advice. hope this makes more sense.
     
    #1
  2. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    I'm not thinking hard on this at all. I just disagree.

    I don't think anybody is doing a heel to toe movement on a fh and loading on the heel. Maybe you are loading on your heel but videos of pro's or good player doesn't support your theory.

    I've never read anything on this site, or seen any articles in tennis literature or videos mentioning this. I've been a member of jeff salzenstein's site, John Yandell's site, FYB, as well as listened to all of Ian's essentialtennis podcasts and I visit other tennis instruction sites every single day (for years) looking to learn anything i can about everything tennis. All of those sites talk extensively about loading and weight transfer and cover minute details related. None of them mention any heel action. I work at home and the tennis channel is on the tv all day long. I've been playing tennis since I was 4 and have taken many many lessons and i also was a minor league 3rd baseman with a sidearm throw which is very similar to fh. I have never received any instruction by coaches nor have had any discussions with anyone ever regarding loading on the heel.

    Loading on the heel doesn't make sense. to me. If tennis players and baseball players were loading on the heel and transferring to the big toe you would see everyone hitting a fh or throwing a ball by planting on the heel with the toe pointed up and towards the target direction. You don't see this on anyone. Everyone lands flat or on the ball of the foot with the foot pointed to the side fence. They don't transfer weight towards the side fence. Baseball players have the same footwork (when open stance not a running forehand or a running throw).
    The heel has no muscle to load, It doesn't have moving parts and it's not springy and doing a heel to toe transfer would transfer weight out towards the side fence instead of forward into the ball. The reason some ppl do it, including myself, on a 1hbh with the front foot is because that's a closed stance and the front foot is pointing forward in the direction you want the momentum to go. Not the same on an open stance fh with the rear leg.

    Now it could be possible that this technique has escaped me all these years and I am wrong. I actually hope that is the case so that I can learn something new. So if anyone else on this board chimes in stating they load their weight on the heel and then transfer that to the toe and then transfer their weight forward (???) when doing a forehand or if you can find any tennis article or video stating such then that would convince me that this is an actual practice that some ppl do and I will thank you for teaching me something new and I'll go out and practice it.

    Until then I'll wait for your video.

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
    #2
  3. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHii6bkVhZY

    Take a look at his right foot on his FH. The heel is solidly on the ground before it lifts for weight transfer and push off on the inside ball of the foot.

    When I say place weight on the heel, are you thinking lifting the toes? What I mean is heel touching the ground with most weight on it. But, even when the heel is touching the ground many a times not enough weight is on the heel. 50 or 60 % instead of 80 to 90 %. That robs some power and can cause problem with consistency. That's the issue I'm talking about.

    Even when the foot is pointing the side fence and heel is lifted to push off from the ball of the foot it doesn't mean the whole weight is going toward the side fence. Push off always happens at the ball of the foot and toe and when it's the inside ball the direction is anywhere between backward, sideway toward inside of the foot, and forward. Most efficient being between sideway and forward.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
    #3
  4. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    Which fh are you referring to exactly? timestamp?

    also from what i just saw there on the video the heel is touching the ground as well as the ball of the foot. it's flat. then there is a slight pause as he waits. that slight pause means no movement and no heel to toe transfer (as you can see on a 1hbh where there is no pause) After the pause due to him waiting and lining things up etc he loads his weight on the rear leg with his foot flat.

    Now how can you tell me when his foot is flat that he is loading weight on the heel? How do you know that? You can't know that because it happens fast and once he loads he springs off it. If you read the tennisone articles or any other instruction site or watch vids they always say "load the weight on the inside of the foot on the inside of the leg". this means 'not on the heel'.

    edit: idk.. maybe i'm misunderstanding you or something. but loading on the heel makes your weight go in the wrong direction or even backward. just try it. stand on one leg and put your weight on your heel. you will fall over backward or to some direction other than forward where the ball is headed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
    #4
  5. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    The sound is good on that video though :)
     
    #5
  6. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    There are only a few Fh and he does the same on all of them. If the article says that I believe you are mis-interpreting it. I would think it means heel and inside of the ball of the foot. And it's pretty simple biomechanics. Weight on the heel engages the glutes and hamstrings properly for better control from the core and quicker reaction time. Any time the knee is bent and body is lowered the weight should be concentrated on the heel. For push off you transfer weight to the front of the foot.
     
    #6
  7. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    No I don't think i misunderstood anything. If any instructor doesn't say 'inside of foot' what they will say is 'load on the ball of the foot'. Never have i seen 'on the heel'.

    If loading was supposed to be done on the heel then we would see that every day on this site. People would be writing on advice seeking threads: "You're not loading your weight on your heel. Load your weight on your heel and then transfer it to your toes." I'll bet that has never been said on this site even once.

    In any sport when there is a heel to toe transfer the athlete continues to throw the whole body in the direction of the toe. Look at any olympic long jumper, high jumper, runner, a running forehand, an outfielder making a running throw to home plate, a javelin thrower, an american football player, frisbee throwing, basketball, etc. All of those sports have toe to heel transfers and with every one of them the player continues to move the whole body in the direction of the transfer which is in the direction of the toes. Tennis players plant the foot pointing to the side fence then transfer weight to forward into the court which is perpendicular 90 degrees off of the direction of the toes. so there is no heel to toe transfer.

    Safin has excellent technique. Look at this vid. clear slo mo. look at his right foot. He's clearly not loading on his heel. Most of the time his lifts his heel and his foot actually slides backwards behind his body. No heel loading or heel -> toe weight transfer

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=IFW7lf6Yo_M&NR=1&t=36s
     
    #7
  8. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    In that video I see Safin loading on full flat foot every time. Not once he begins his FH stroke with his right heel off the ground. Only as he transfers the weight to his left foot he lifts the heel and puts weight on his right inside toe. Hey it sounds you have developed ideas how to use your feet and if it's giving you no problem, I guess that's working for you. I just wanted to point out cuz I have gone through that and for me this heel thing is working better than before I focused on it when my foot balance had been all over the place. All's cool. Cheers.
     
    #8
  9. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    yes. most ppl load on full flat most of the time. then they push off the inside of the foot or the ball of the foot. But you have to agree that if he was doing a heel to toe weight transfer then his foot wouldn't be sliding backwards as he's hitting.

    When you do a heel to toe weight transfer and then slide your foot backwards that's called "The Moon Walk".

    All's cool. Maybe someone else will chime in here someday.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
    #9
  10. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,869
    Location:
    A green and pleasant land
    Interesting discussion! The only time i have ever consciously asked a player to specifically load on the heel is when landing the front foot when hitting a neutral stance backhand. Too many players step onto the ball of the foot with this final step which basically puts the brakes on the stroke. A heel landing allows the heel to toe weight transfer that cheetah was referring to and lets the player 'roll' their body weight into the shot better. As for loading on the outside foot (during a forehand or wide backhand for example) I cant see any definitive evidence that elite players load on the heel rather than the whole foot or even the front of the foot - in terms of planting the foot a neutral weight or a more toe biased weighing would make more sense than a heel weighting as in that situation you don't want to continue the weight transfer in the direction of travel?

    I would go and have a play about with this and experiment - but none of my players use their legs!!!

    cheers
     
    #10
  11. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    something like this is usually too trivial to mention in a tennis instruction but I find it very important just like how important it is to very precisely control the wrist and hand in manipulating a racquet. foot angle and force distribution are something that can be controlled consciously relatively easily with good results esp people who don't do it automatically from their own coordination. with some right training the foot muscles can get a lot stronger and the flexibility can be improved as well, which almost always escapes the mind of people for its trivialness.

    as for your students, how effectively do they use their lower back and abdomen muscles to generate power? I'd imagine better than regular players.
     
    #11
  12. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,869
    Location:
    A green and pleasant land
    ^^^depends on their injury level/condition - some have no use of any abdominal/lumbar muscles at all!
     
    #12
  13. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,372
    Just to weigh in (without piling on), I'm with Ash and Cheetah on this. I only heel/toe weight transfer when I want the motion to continue in that direction. So yes on my right (front) foot on my 2hbh from neutral stance, no on my fh from open stance (or any stance I think) - at least if I'm not being lazy with my footwork.
     
    #13
  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    34,810
    On forehands, I notice from videos that the right foot comes up on its toe right at the time of impact.
     
    #14
  15. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    I'm not describing any elaborate heel toe weight transfer. if your foot is flat and push off on the ball you are doing the weight transfer. so every walking moment this happens. however, in that flat state people put different amount of weight on the heel side. in terms of static posture it's better to rest most of the weight on the heels without leaning front. when posture becomes dynamic people tend to over do things that are taught to be good like staying on the balls of your feet. for moving around that's good esp shuffle steps, but when setting feet for any stroke where you have to transfer force from the ground heel is important connection between ball of the foot and the rest of the body.

    if you are already high level player with great movement and consistency and power, most likely your feet are very stable in motion. however not every one of them realize how thier feet are controlled. there's no hram in bringing this into the light as some could benefit from it.
     
    #15
  16. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,305
    I'm actually with boramiNYC on this. When you're planting from heel for an open-stance FH, you're using the posterior chain (waist down.) This puts your hip flexors in a much safer position from the open stance, and it lets you more efficiently load power into an open-stanced FH. Also, if you learn to move using the anterior chain, you'll end up moving in soft arcs across the court, with improved lateral movement and balance.

    For the 1H and 2H BH, it should still come from the balls of the foot.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
    #16
  17. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    I see references to loading on the ball or inside of the foot all the time. So why would instruction to load on the heel be considered too trivial? Some of those pay instruction sites go into extreme detail and often include articles by sports physicians and professionals in biomechanics etc and they talk about which muscles, forces, tension, SSC, balance, position of this and that, timing, firing sequence, joint angles etc. Where to specifically load the weight is not trivial.

    If loading on the heel was utilized then forehands today would look different than they do now. The technique would have evolved such that elite players would have very pronounced heel to toe transfers and they would start every forehand with a very noticeable toe pointing up to squeeze every ounce of benefit from the weight transfer just as athletes do in other sports that use heel to toe where you can clearly see it being utilized and their weight continues in that direction and every kid would be hitting fh's with their toe pointing up in imitation.

    imo
     
    #17
  18. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,783
    Location:
    On my iPhone
    Tricky has spoken. Borami, nice post.

    /thread
     
    #18
  19. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    so when your stroke begins the back swing is your heel off the ground or you try to do that to load on the inside ball of your foot?

    as I said heel toe weight transfer is not a fancy idea. heel on the ground then heel off the ground this is weight transfer. basically every pro do this most of the time in their stroke so I don't know where we are crossing each other. when there is no weight on the heel it's off the ground as simple as that. I don't think initiating a stroke with the heel off the ground is a sound advice at all. what am I missing?
     
    #19
  20. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,783
    Location:
    On my iPhone
    I load off the inside of my foot and my weight shifts over to my left foot personally. But if I thought about all this stuff in a match I would make a million mistakes.
     
    #20
  21. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    Inside of the foot I agree.

    Anatomically there are three weight bearing points beneath our feet. heel, balls of the foot near big toe and little toe. the heel is the main weight bearing point for stability and the inside ball is the main push off point for mobility, the small ball is more for balance.

    When you hear the advice load inside of your outside foot, you don't want to take weight off the heel (heel lift) and put weight on the inside ball of the foot and wait for the ball to reach the contact point. The loading should be done with the heel firmly grounded and only some weight on the inside of the ball of the foot and not much weight on the outside of the ball of the foot. this is how I would interpret the advice. and btw I wouldn't have any problem debating anatomy, physics, and biomechanics of tennis with any of the advisors of the pay sites out there. also I'm pretty sure those sites can't afford the highest quality scientific advisors on daily basis and even if they do those won't be too helpful unless those advisors play serious tennis.
     
    #21
  22. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    Why do you say the heel is the weight 'bearing point for stability'? Is this a biomechanical fact? Can I find this in print somewhere? I don't have a degree in biomechanics so I don't know. And even if the heel is the 'main' point that doesn't necessarily mean you should load on the heel for a fh in tennis.

    You can't be stable without having weight on the balls of your feet either. There are many animals in nature where balance and stability is entirely maintained on the balls of the feet. These animals also tend to be very quick. There are no animals that use only the heel for stability.

    Yandell's site has everything you just mentioned. The contributors on his site are either world class coaches, former atp pros, people with phd's, people with degrees in biomechanics etc.

    Btw, do you have a degree in biomechanics or any certification in any form of sports training or physiological science?
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
    #22
  23. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    According to some research I just did:
    Balance relates more to a static condition such as when you're trying to balance on one foot. Stability relates more to a dynamic condition where there is actually movement involved such as hopping on one foot.

    But you said the heel is the main point for stability which doesn't match the info that I found. It seems to be just the opposite.
     
    #23
  24. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,505
    Location:
    The Peak of Good Living
    Looks like your "research" was Yahoo Answers: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090310232821AAAYDwc

    I don't know anything about biomechanics either, but I don't think "Denis S. on Yahoo Answers" counts as a reliable source...
     
    #24
  25. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2009
    Messages:
    1,505
    Location:
    The Peak of Good Living
    #25
  26. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    tho you can find most of what i wrote with some research and right reading, the conclusion and claim i make is my own. oh the balls of the foot and animals...i'm very well aware of this. they all use all four limbs to bear weight and move around as the default. humans don't. there are a few unique anatomical features that define human and the foot anatomy and it's function is one of them. never said not to have weight on the balls. John's site has lots of info and interesting contributors but didn't find cohesiveness in its approach. i think it's by the design and it has advantages and weaknesses so if you find it helpful that's great. i find it irrelevant to reveal my education background here. dont know why you are asking. what i write can stand on its own. if you cant make your own judgment i cant help you.
     
    #26
  27. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    you wanna argue with the words balance and stability? i dont see any point in this as would anyone who studies biomechanics. wholey interchangeable in this context
     
    #27
  28. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    They don't all use 4 limbs. Birds and kangaroos are 2 examples I can think of off the top of my head that use the balls of their feet and are bipedal.

    I'm asking for your related educational background because you often make claims of bio-mechanical processes and you dismiss (on this issue, and maybe 'dismiss' is a bit strong but..) what I can readily find on any tennis site, magazine, video or by speaking to a tennis professional in person including those with a related educational background or training in this area. What you are saying contradicts precise instruction I have learned personally from a professional sports team relating to this very subject. Therefore I feel it is within bounds to kindly ask you about your educational background relating to biomechanics or sports training. You don't have to answer that of course. But it's fine for me to ask.

    Why do you say 'if I can't make my own judgement'? I have. I thought that was obvious. If you can't take an open look at what sports professionals with experience in this area are saying and stick to conclusions you made on your own then I can't help you.
     
    #28
  29. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    I was checking because your were making your point based on the difference between balance and stability. Then when I looked up the meanings for balance vs stability there were the opposite of what you said. That would have seemed to favor my side of the debate wouldn't it? Also it kind of maked me question how much of the subject you know if you can't properly distinguish between these 2 seemingly basic concepts of which you speak often.

    And I'm not arguing. I'm debating. There's a difference. You should be able to 'argue' your point and attempt to back it up with evidence, examples, and experience and be willing to accept questioning and requests for supporting evidence, studies, popular mindset and background.

    And for the record i'm not sure they are 'interchangeable'. From reading that link provided above they appear to be interchangeable in other studies such as math and heuristics but NOT interchangeable in the fields relating to bio mechanical movement. And if they were interchangeable why did you make a point of them having separate meanings and function by saying the heel is for stability and the toes are for balance? That doesnt sound interchangeable to me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
    #29
  30. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    Oh sorry I wasn't sure what you were referring to. In that context the terms I used are more qualitative. Stability in the sense the heels absorb the shock of whole body weight hitting the ground and provide solidity in carrying weight in the upright manner. It contributes to balance as well while doing this. And the ball of the little toe doesn't play a main role in stabilizing the upright posture or propelling forward but it plays important role in general movement and balance.

    Not interchangeable but their functions are all shared at the same time pretty distinct.
     
    #30
  31. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    I think I have an open mind. You are referring to 'put your weight inside of your foot'? I thought I already made myself clear. There was a dose of your own interpretation, which I disagreed and provided my interpretation. I never disagreed with that statement from the sports professional. See above post where I explained it.
     
    #31
  32. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    Ok. Well obviously this subject is open for debate and difficult to prove either way. I don't think either of us know 100% for sure what is happening or what should happen.

    All good.
     
    #32
  33. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    If you haven't put much of the weight on the heel while loading before why don't you try it and see how it feels different? Whether you like it or not and why? Would be interesting.
     
    #33
  34. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    I'll try it tomorrow
     
    #34
  35. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    I'm trying it now shadow swinging and so far it doesn't feel right. Loading on the heel makes it more difficult to push off. Like it's holding me back and the weight wants to stay down.

    When I step normally with weight on the inside of the foot and most of the weight on the balls of the foot and my knee is directly over my toes it feels 'loaded' and springy and it has the feeling of wanting to explode up and out towards the target.

    When I try here now to load on the heel it feels locked down, the knee is not in the proper place for exploding quickly up and it's sort of like i'm standing still. there is no 'loaded muscle feeling'. Only a 'solid' feeling as if I'm standing straight up. If I bend my knee down with weight on the heel the balance is not shifted towards the net. The balance feels... idk... off. It feels heavy and stationary instead of 'light and springy'. And if I want to push off then i have to kind of move the weight off my heel AND THEN load and push off. It doesn't feel dynamic. Not athletic. It feels like putting weight on the heel is for standing or walking and not meant for exploding up.

    I'll still try it on court but I don't see it at the moment. Maybe it's different if I'm running then stop and load but not feeling it at the moment.

    Maybe someone else here can try that too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
    #35
  36. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,305
    When you push off, is it mostly your quadriceps or your hamstrings?
     
    #36
  37. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    For me personally I load on the way down using hamstrings ,quickly to stretch the quads, and push off mostly with the quads and calves I was taught a long time ago. I picture a push off on a fh the same as a vertical jump pretty much (muscle group wise). Maybe they are not exactly the same i don't know but that's how i activate the groups.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
    #37
  38. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,305
    So, I believe what boramiNYC is advocating would be instead using the inner thighs/hamstrings, buttocks, and inner calves. In other words, muscles that you would be using if you were performing a deadlift. That would involve pushing off from the heel.
     
    #38
  39. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    Yes the posterior chain. Which might be why it doesn't feel right to me because I use anterior for all the sports I play.

    So you teach your students to push off the heel?
     
    #39
  40. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    3,305
    Yes, the posterior chain is the "native" one for the open-stanced FH. It's safer for the lower base (since you're not really putting the hip flexors in a big stretch or potential for injury), and it actually does a better job of loading the shot from the open stance. And yes, it's a departure from some of the literature on TP (though most women use the anterior chain) as well as most sports.

    You can almost move in this way, and some players do. They split step from the heel (i.e. bounce from the hamstrings), which leads to a narrower stance and causes you to move laterally in wide arcs rather than in a straight line.
     
    #40
  41. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Messages:
    19,783
    Location:
    On my iPhone
    Tricky this feels right to me. To be honest I never thought about all the nuances, but once I did, what you are saying is how I do it.
     
    #41
  42. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    35,765
    I have skinny weak calves.
    My heels always touch the ground on every step, and I push off my heels when I get weight transfer, using the calf muscles.
     
    #42
  43. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    tricky,

    I won't be able to try this on court till later tonight but doing some shadow swings if I load on the heel and push off with the heel it sort of feels like the heel wants to stay down because your pushing on it of course. So you'd have to work in heel to toe transfer which is not actually pushing of the heel (i think). It's more a case of putting your weight on the heel, doing the transfer to the toes and then doing the actual push off the balls of the feet. That's how it feels to me currently.

    Can you explain further in detail on how posterior would do a better job loading for an open stance? When I try it here at home I don't feel anything is better. (yet). All i feel is that loading on the heel loads posterior better and loading on the balls loads anterior better. So why would posterior be better?

    Also, are you sure the pros are split stepping from the heel and hamstrings? I don't see that. To me it appears they are pushing off the ball and toes and simply lifting their heel as can be seen here in this ferrer/murray footwork vid
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG5Z5fs4-Ms


    thanks
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
    #43
  44. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    Yes, what I wanted to emphasize was the importance of using the posterior chain as in dead lift and squat. thanks tricky for clearing that up.

    cheetah, what you are describing sounds right. can't push off from the heel. only load. but loading must be done on the heel. heel toe transfer for push off.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
    #44
  45. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    35,765
    However you discribe the pushing off process, you have to push off using your CALF, or calves or calf's.
     
    #45
  46. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    Here's a good vid w/ Berdych.

    He loads over the inside of the right foot. The push off from the right leg appears to me like it's anterior. Also the heel on his left foot doesn't touch the ground so he's pushing off a bit with his toes there too which is definitely anterior motion. so how can a person be using posterior with the right and anterior with the left?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=SSVpIJ4zF80
     
    #46
  47. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,849
    Location:
    San Diego
    Match report:

    I tried it tonight and hit many balls with it. It definitely gives a solid feel and has power. The contact feels good and you feel stable on the hit. It also feels a little easier to lift of course because your using the hammies.
    However, I don't think it's for me. It makes me kind of ... stop. When I set up with weight on the heel it stops my momentum and springiness. The hit feels good but after that i have restart my engine it feels like. It took me a while to get the heel to toe transfer but even after I got it down it doesn't gel w/ my style. It's not fluid enough for me. I also found it hard to load on the inside of the foot this but I guess that could be because I've only tried it for one day. Also it feels like too many steps to the procedure. You have to load on heel, then transfer weight to the front and then push up as opposed to just load and push all in the same area of the foot in the same motion.

    It's definitely a solid and stable feeling and has power but I can't justify the down shift feeling i get when i used it. When I hit this way I could feel the hit in my gluts. Whereas with the front of the foot method i feel the hit in my thighs, hips and chest.

    Anyway, it was a fun experiment. I hit with another tt member tonight. Good hitting.
     
    #47
  48. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    Good report. I'm glad you tried it out. yeah it's not something that can be easily changed over night. it involves very large muscles and those need to be conditioned and it takes time. but as tricky mentions, for the safety sake it's worth working on imo. but the best part is smooth and easy power you can generate this way. to me consistency improved as well. hope you don't dismiss it too quick cuz it takes many hittings and some effort off the court as well to see the real benefits. anyways thanks for good sport.
     
    #48
  49. albesca

    albesca Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    295
    Location:
    Milano, Italy
    i do something as Borami does... but instead to think about the right foot on its heel, i think about the left foot on its toe. Probably i feel good this way because the movement of the left leg counterbalance the raquet arm position .. then, i feel better my balance.

    Gluteus and core work much better and more in relation to the right quadriceps.

    "leg push" often is exchanged with "leg extension" ... isn't... by me leg push is more about femoral rotation by gluteus instead leg extension by the quadriceps.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
    #49
  50. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,337
    I agree about the femoral rotation, about which there was a thread recently as 'hip internal rotation'. At the hip joint, pelvis-femur joint, the force pushing up against the ground by extending the leg is converted into a rotational force of the pelvis which is relayed to torso and upper body rotation and arm swing. And the glutes are one of the strongest muscles in the body and initiates that rotation. So it's obvious the importance in tennis.

    Found a good article about glutes for anyone interested further.
    http://ezinearticles.com/?Facts-About-the-Glutes-and-Lower-Abs---Weakest-Link&id=1682172

    Furthermore, importance of glutes in highly coordinated activities, attraction to nice tight butt for both male and female, the performance of glutes in sex, and the evolutionary advantage are all closely related imo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
    #50

Share This Page