Chopin's New Poll: Venus Williams v.s. Laver

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Chopin, Aug 21, 2009.

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Venus v.s. Laver (Please read handicaps before voting)

  1. Venus

    32 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Laver

    32 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. Chopin

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    Now before you jump all over this one, let's clarify a few things. Venus Williams is being given a significant handicap in this match. She's allowed to use a graphite racquet and any modern strings, while Laver is forced to use wood. In addition, she's able to use the doubles alleys, while Laver is not. Also, she is given a 15-0 advantage in every service game, and a 30-0 advantage in every return game. The surface is hard courts.

    Who wins?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2009
    #1
  2. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    What is the point of this poll?
     
    #2
  3. Chopin

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    It's an experiment I'm conducting.

    I personally think that the advantages are enough for Venus to probably get by even if it would still be quite close (I mean, graphite is an advantage and means that Venus would definitely serve harder, the scoring is a significant advantage, and the doubles alleys is a significant advantage,).

    It's nothing against Laver, but the odds would be stacked against him based on the scoring, court and equipment handicaps.

    I'm seeing how logical the TW Historians truly are. If they go off on some tangent about how Laver would destroy Venus even with a huge handicap, I know for sure that they've gone off the deep end.

    Hey, you're a good poster to ask why. Most of my threads have a very specific purpose and many times, the Historians just get too upset to understand the deep meaning of my threads.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2009
    #3
  4. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    depends... is laver allowed to use wet cabbage ?
     
    #4
  5. lawrence

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    So basically you're admitting this is a spite thread that was made to bait "TW Historians"?
     
    #5
  6. Chopin

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    It's an experiment. As Dr. Peter Venkman once said: Back off, man. I'm a scientist.
     
    #6
  7. lawrence

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    fair enough then. i wont have a go at you because i liked to bait gj myself
    good fun
     
    #7
  8. joe sch

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    Most of best players today have not played against great serve volley players. Even when Federer played Sampras after years of retirement for Pete, they had very close matches, just like when they played in Rogers early days on the tour. Venus, Serena, Steffi, and Monica all had trouble playing against Martina Navratilova and this was when she was post 40. These are all reasons that show this kind of disrespect targeted to the GOAT Laver and the game that the GOAT contenders played in bygones past, is ridiculous. My point is the Laver would dominate. This is not speculation but theory based on transitive competition properties. Seems like the supporters of Federer being the GOAT and the modern game being the GOAT of tennis skills all just use speculation to attack old school playing styles and the GOATs for those eras. I agree that modern equipment is the best for blasting baseline winners and service returns but for serves, vollies, half volleys, the bigger heads, lighter rackets, and stiff strings and frames do not offer such a big advantage. What I would like to see is a matchup of John McEnroe playing wood against Venus and Serena playing thier favorities. This would offer a good idea for the outcome of this post.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
    #8
  9. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    This is such a dumb thread.
     
    #9
  10. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

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    Chopin whats your problem with Laver?
     
    #10
  11. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    laver is 71
    venus is 29

    match will be over in 20 minutes, if laver could last that long :shock:
     
    #11
  12. Topspinslice

    Topspinslice New User

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    It's not Laver. This know it all want to insult and tweak all the posters but especially the historians of this site. These are people who have forgotten more about tennis than he will ever know.
     
    #12
  13. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    As is true with all of Chopin's posts:

    TENNIS WINS
     
    #13
  14. Chopin

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    Thank you! You flatter me. As I've said before, I'm starting a movement that the Historians know will be their undoing.

    I was watching a movie on pianist Glenn Gould the other night and they interviewed violinist Bruno Monsaingeon about why Gould received such poor critical receptions when he was very, very popular. And one thing he said was that Gould was a threat to the musical establishment.

    It's similar with me, I'm a threat to the establishment in the Former Pro Player discussion sections, so rather than confront my ideas, they mock me.

    It's OK, things are motion which they can't stop.
     
    #14
  15. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    I was under the impression that you represented the establishment. But it's kind of cute how you can be the underdog and claim to have the popular opinion behind you.

    I also like the imaginary dichotomy. Not because it is a new or effective tactic, but because it becomes more pathetic the more it gets absurd.

    My only conclusion here is that either you are a complete dolt or you are trying to undermine your own cause. Either one satisfies.
     
    #15
  16. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    He certainly does. You're the last person I need to tell, but fans and media alike think that today's game is the best there ever was.

    Most, not all. I've had the pleasure on this board of meeting thoughtful fans (and I'm not just talking about the "TW Historians").
     
    #16
  17. ubermeyer

    ubermeyer Hall of Fame

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    Don't you understand that the courts are slower so it makes no sense to serve and volley anymore? Even if Ivo Karlovic had the second serve of Isner and the volleys of McEnroe, Sampras, Rafter, take your pick, he still would not be able to beat somebody like Federer on a regular basis
     
    #17
  18. joe sch

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    Ok, so why is it that during all the Sampras vs Federer matches and exhibitions, Pete played his same game and Roger was forced to play a similar style or face a more likely defeat ? The answer is not that its staged. Its not the courts or the equipment, its the players do not have the confidence to play that game. They are all masters of baseline blasting. Its fine that the players are all great players from the baseline now but dont think that this awesome display of power tennis means that they could destroy the GOATs from earlier era's. Its even more disrespectful to think that todays ladies or college players would beat these GOATs from the earlier eras. The point Im trying to make is that Venus or Serena would not have defeated Laver at his prime, not even if they had modern equipment and he was playing wood.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
    #18
  19. ubermeyer

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    but I thought Laver was not going to be in his prime, he was going to be 71, like he really is. at least the question seemed like that
     
    #19
  20. Chopin

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    CyBorg, the more you mock me, the more you hurl petty insults at me, the more you insult the very spirit of tennis, the greater my cause becomes. You can't beat me. I'm like the maestro of the boards, conducting a great symphony orchestra that will speak to the tennis world.
     
    #20
  21. Chopin

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    But what about the doubles alleys and a 30-0 advantage in each game?
     
    #21
  22. joe sch

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    You can Not be serious :)

    Ok, Laver at 71 will be defeated by most all. Not even sure if he still plays singles ?
     
    #22
  23. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Chopin thinks he has no problem with Laver (he'll tell you that if he decides to answer your question). But I think one thing that's going on is that, in the general perception, Federer has passed Sampras and his only remaining rival is Laver.

    Chopin is a Federer fan.

    So am I, but we've got nothing else in common.
     
    #23
  24. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    This is without question the stupidest poll I've ever seen in my entire life.
     
    #24
  25. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    double post.
     
    #25
  26. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    The only thing that is getting greater is your hubris and in its vain bloatedness it is exposing itself for what it is.

    Don't take this as an attempt on my part to argue with you. Rather I'm just curious to see if you can appreciate the worthlessness of what you're doing. I'll break this down for you.

    - you're not really interested in having a logical discussion. So that's not it

    - you're probably not dumb enough to think that what you say qualifies as rational debate, but if you are then that's great

    - you're not really satirizing or picking apart existing rhetoric on this board, as much as you're attempting to get on people's nerves

    - and ultimately what you really present yourself as is a kind of caricature of the modern fan - vain, shallow and arrogant

    I don't really mock you here, as much as I simply admire the deliciousness of this irony, one that works so wonderfully against you.

    Unless of course you see it for what it is and therefore are not on the side you claim you are. But I don't think you're that bright. The shtick is not that old. I remember the more serious, upfront you.

    Of course, there's always the leftover troll logic of simply hijacking a board for lulz. But you've failed at this as well as perfectly evidenced, because the posters here are all patiently willing to poke holes in your convoluted logic without getting too worked up.

    I guess what you have to ask yourself now is where you go from here. You can keep posting and we'll just stare and amusement while the caricature self-disintegrates in the juices of its own folly. I might occasionally chime in and mock.

    Because, you see, I don't really care if you go away. I like that you are here. You're like an accidental satirist - the irony just flies right over your head.
     
    #26
  27. Chopin

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    CyBorg, don't be a fool. The real reasons for your disdain date back to our original little fight in which you started swearing at me like a child before the moderator's deleted our posts.

    Nevertheless, let me tell you a story. I've had the pleasure of snorkeling at Waterlemon Cay, which is widely considered one of the best snorkeling spots in the USVI. The cay is only accessible via a hiking trial that leads onto a rocky beach lined by sea urchins. And once you're in the water, you must swim across a deep expanse where all sorts of larger creatures pass through (reef sharks, great barracuda)--it can be a unnerving experience depending what great creatures meet you from the deep! And due to the cay's proximity to the open ocean, the current can be quite, quite strong. It's not a trip to be taken lightly. But once you reach the blindside of the cay facing the open ocean, you're often greeted by a wondrous sight! A diversity of corals, fish and invertebrates well worth anyone's time. I once saw the beautiful spotted eagle ray, gracefully gliding through.

    And perhaps most importantly, when I'm at the mercy of the great sea, surrounded by nature's glory and life's beauty, I realize how perilously we exist, even in our day to day existence. The experience is nothing short of sublime. I hope you see, then, that I'm not afraid to see things for what they are. If that means seeing that Laver would not cut it in the modern game, or that Borg was NOT as good as Federer, or Sampras, so be it. I dare you, Cyborg, swim out to that open ocean expanse and see the truth.

    "The breaking of so great a thing"--Caesar, Anthony and Cleopatra
     
    #27
  28. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    A person can do many great things and be wrong about any given subject. Whatever you're describing here -- personal courage, ability to see great things as they are, yada yada -- does not deliver knowledge, though I think it's very revealing that you assume they do.

    And this is one more post where you inject yourself once again. Seriously, the one thing you represent more consistently than anything else is yourself. CyBorg has read you very clearly.
     
    #28
  29. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    You want to BS, you've got to learn from the masters: start at 5:55 -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE1K5S0FAko&feature=related
     
    #29
  30. Chopin

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    Knowledge, ha! Logic is the beginning of knowledge--not the end, my friend. Have ever heard the mermaids call for you?

    Besides, Cyborg is blinded by his love for the "golden days" of tennis (and his anger towards me challenging his pseudo-intellectual views). I see things as they are.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
    #30
  31. Chopin

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    #31
  32. Chopin

    Chopin Hall of Fame

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    10-4 Venus Williams!
     
    #32
  33. Chopin

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9nfGNZrtcM

    Venus' serve is more technically sound than Laver (she does not have the strength, but her motion is better).

    For those of you who voted for Laver--what if, in addition to the doubles alleys, and graphite racquet advantage, Venus was given a 40-0 advantage in every game? Then would she win or would Laver's gifts be too much?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
    #33
  34. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Oh, yes. I remember that. You made mention of some scholarly journals (I know how much you like linking to them, but not reading them) that supposedly proved something about tennis getting better or some nonsense of the type. Then I took you up on it and, of course, you had nothing to show. Then you took offense when I hurt your feelings.

    It's nice to see that you've made sure to shield yourself from any serious discussion by flaunting a kind of layed-back, smarmy attitude. A nice protective device - keeps you from the kind of exposure that you suffered that time.

    Too late. :)
     
    #34
  35. Polaris

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    I would have answered this question had the OP been more diligent while framing his experiment. As it happens, he has not only been arrogant about his intentions but also utterly careless about specifying the conditions of the experiment. Without specifying the static electric charge density (in coulombs per square cm) created by the players' shoes on the hard court surface, it is impossible to predict the result of *any* tennis match, let alone the hypothetical encounter so incompletely envisioned by the OP's pedestrian imagination.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
    #35
  36. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    How cute, Chopin first claims that he's the everyman who rails against the establishment. And now he's in the employ of privileged visibility. A two-faced dandy as he admits.

    Oh, Chopin. You have to read Shakespeare before you apply Shakespeare. Just like you have to read the jstor journal articles before you link them.
     
    #36
  37. Chopin

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    Yes, these message boards cause me so much pain and suffering. Help me, Cyborg! Help me! Save my soul!

    Like I said Cyborg, I've given up debating tennis with you because the drivel you type isn't worth my time. This stuff, however, is quite amusing. And I do mean it, open up your mind CyBorg.
     
    #37
  38. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    You never even began.

    P.S. Glad to see those high school English lessons are being put to good use. The postmodernism stuff was really deep too. I bet you inject a lot of these gems around the water cooler. Or at bars to impress girls. ;)
     
    #38
  39. Chopin

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    You just don't get it, Cyborg. Richard II is a pretty boring play anyways. The quote was a joke, of course. Besides, I'm more like Prospero from The Tempest.
     
    #39
  40. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    A joker is clever when it fits within context. One that doesn't is a shot in the dark.
     
    #40
  41. tudwell

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    Venus would destroy Laver. Modern technology allows her to hit with speed and spin that Laver never saw, plus he has to cover more ground than her, which probably makes up for the inherent physical differences between men and women. The scoring advantage makes it virtually hopeless for Laver.
     
    #41
  42. Chopin

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    Yeah, I prefer not to waste my time debating biased idiots. Like I said, you're like a showy musician who just doesn't get it. My signature shows as much.

    Your only response is take cheap shots at me, further confirming your insecurities. Keep going CyBorg! You're adding a lot to the boards (I forget, you're on the "good" posters)!
     
    #42
  43. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were done. But, no, no. Keep going.

    Dance monkey. Dance for us all.
     
    #43
  44. Chopin

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    Thank you--someone sane. Laver would obviously win easily on equal footing, but the scenario was designed for Laver to lose--and to test the TW Historians.
     
    #44
  45. Chopin

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    Who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?
     
    #45
  46. Chopin

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    Ah, I missed this gem of a post. Yeah--if you're not smart enough to get the joke, it's not funny. Good point.
     
    #46
  47. Chopin

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    Another straight set victory of Chopin over CyBorg! 6-2, 6-0. The "analysis" in the first set gets him a couple of games.
     
    #47
  48. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    The licensed fool is often one of the more self-aware of characters. Glad to see that you haven't thought this one through either. Shouldn't you know a bit about fools, being such a Shakespeare enthusiast?

    Do come prepared next time.
     
    #48
  49. Chopin

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    Right, I am aware, while you are the one who blindly follows along. Good.
     
    #49
  50. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    This one's a natural, I take it.
     
    #50

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