Chris & Hana

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by BTURNER, Mar 8, 2012.

  1. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Two matches showcased on You-tube
    the US Open semi of 85. Often when Evert looses a semi, you can sense she is little flat or tight. This time she played well but Hana brought her 'A' game and mindset. There just weren't periodic lapses Chris was used to exploiting between the brilliant play. Chris mentioned Hana's serving as especially deceptive and smart after this match. Of Course Mandlikova beat Martina to win her only Open title.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYS3OlWYBR0

    Semi in Key Biscayne in 87. You may remember this event as the one that starred Steffi, who routined Martina and Evert to win. The last of three people to beat both women in the same tournement when they were the top two players in the world. Austin at the Open was the first. The event mentioned earlier in my post was the second. The real celebrity in this match was the Florida winds which made for an error prone first set. BJK says here that Evert plays better in wind and reads it better than anyone. Lobs, once they started landing in, never stopped and Hana was crushed 6-0 in the second. both matches are in 2 parts
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi4m9rrkSQw
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2012
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  2. BTURNER

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    Here is a third. The complete one hour 40 minute '86 Wimbledon semifinal . this may be one of their cleaner matches. There was no stats offered whatsoever, but my impression is of a match with more winners than errors by both. After Evert looses the first, she gains a 5- 2 lead in the second and looses 15 straight points, or more accurately Hana blazes winners all over the place with only two loose points points by Chris to aide her.

    There are some technical problems with the video. At first the court is a pretty red color which is however unbecoming on English grass. There is also a tracking disparity which makes you choose between muting Maskell and Ann Jones or tolerating the discrepancy. Its still worth it. Who knows when it will be taen down They both played really well with chris volleying as well and frequently as I have seen. All to no avail http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TrmqFL2_8w
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
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  3. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

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    It was really disappointing to see Chris lose that match....still, when Hana was "on" she was amazing and could make even Martina look bad. She was the McEnroe of the ladies....
     
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  4. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    The 1986 Wimbledon match is the type of match frequently played between the two. On some days Chris wins that match 6-2 6-2. On others like this day Hana is concentrating well enough to hang in there mentally until she can get into the match. That's just a reminder of how Hana always walked a very fine line in her tennis. As with the 1986 French quarter with Steffi, Hana seemed out of it at times but was only missing by a little. When her shots started going in, Hana controlled the outcome.

    The 15 point streak by Hana was won almost entirely on aces, volley winners, and cold winners from the baseline. This demoralized Chris who had to fight through a grueling draw: Jordan to Sukova to Mandlikova. This, after having a similar draw at the French a few weeks earlier: Sabatini to Bassett to Mandlikova to Martina. Rotten draws for Chris but she fought through a lot of matches until she ran out of steam. Great effort by Chris.

    Spectacular win by Hana whose game was like a flying trapeze artist without a net. Shakespearean almost - great drama, sometimes a tragedy as was the case in the final where she played well enough to win but didn't. It cost her a spot in the upper realm of tennis royalty.
     
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  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hana had a first big win over Evert in the 1981 FO.
     
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  6. BTURNER

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    Evert at this stage, had only missed one semi-final appointment in a major in her career (83' wimbledon). What amazes me, is that even with those kinds of draws on the grass of Australia and Wimbledon, she never did have a second 'oops' on a grass major.

    Hana played the cleanest tennis I have seen from her in this match. Evert makes anyone hit a lot of balls but Hana was so mentally tough throughout. She was hitting those groundies and approaches really hard and deep.

    Tactically, I think Evert erred in not getting her lob grooved early enough as she often did with Martina on grass, anticipating a third set. Otherwise, I can''t find fault with Evert's play.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
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  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No win Hana ever scored over Chris can overshadow the 1981 landslide at Wimbledon.I was supporting Hana at the same time I was admiring Evert´s nerve and will to win.And her grace.
     
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  8. BTURNER

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    Evert came out unusually determined having gone so long without winning Wimbledon. As for Hana, she was a wreck of errors in that one. She just wasn't the same player who got to the final. Evert kept the ball in play and passed well and Hana just... didn't.
     
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  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    A month before, Hana had defeated Chris at the FO semis.Evert didn´t want to go through this again.Mind you, she was still aware of the 1979-1980 period, when Tracy Austin led her in their H2H.
     
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  10. PDJ

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    1981 wimbledon final: Virginia Wade commentating for the BBC said that the worse thing you could do was to beat evert as mandlikova had at the French recently, because she just came back stronger the next time. I guess wade wd know!
     
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  11. BTURNER

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    She sure should, after Martina, she has by far the most professional match experience playing Evert. She played her 46 times ( including Wightman and fed cup). Wade lost 40 of them for one of the worst records, percentage wise, I can find. Yes there are many many people who never beat Chris, but they were lower ranked and did not play her 46 times. Evert won the first 6 sets they ever played before '73 before Wade beat her in '73. directly thereafter, Virginia gave her a spanking in at Nottingham 6-1, 6-2. Evert lost one set in the next 9 matches. Of course there is the one famous loss in the Wimbledon semis of '77. The Floridian followed that up with 18 consecutive until Virginia retired. Wade must have truly dreaded seeing her in her draw.
     
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  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    How comes, then, that other S&V like Navratilova,King,Court even Goolagong did some S&V, could beat Chris on more consistent basis than Ginny?
     
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  13. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Wade was not nearly as good a player as any of Court, King, Navratilova, Goolagong, or Evert. All 5 of those own her in brutally one sided head to heads. She was the best of the second tier of her time, but a big level below the big girls of her era.

    Navratilova- better serve, better volleys, better overhead, better groundstrokes, better athleticsm, better everything than Wade.

    Evert- her ground game, return, and court sense were much superior to anything Wade had in her arsenal.

    King- better volleys, better serve, and much craftier and mentally tougher than Wade. Wade had a better forehand than King though.

    Court- better serve, better overhead, and much better ground game and approach shots than Wade, and more physically imposing too.

    Goolagong- much better mover, much better ground game, much more fluid overall player, more versatile, and better overall shotmaker than Wade.

    She did well to win 3 majors as she did. She capatilized on a bit on great timing.

    1968 U.S Open- Most impressive slam win ever. Beat Ann Jones and Billie Jean King to win it. Capatilized on Court's major slump and just working her way back on tour after a long layoff, as Court owned Wade even worse than King did.

    1972 Australian Open- Other than Goolagong none of the big guns even played.

    1977 Wimbledon- Court retired, King who was 4-0 vs Wade this year taken out by Evert before she played Wade, Goolagong who was Wade's biggest nemisis at Wimbledon taking her out their year after year not playing. Came up with one really big win over Evert, and lucked out Stove helped her out by upsetting Navratilova and Barker so she met Stove in the final which Stove choked away after being in position to win.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 24, 2012
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  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    t
    What is the head to head betweem Wade and Barker?
     
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  15. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Wade leads Barker 9-6 in head to head I believe. Barker had won all 3 of her meetings with Wade in 1977 going into Wimbledon, and Wade said she was relieved when Stove took out Barker in the 2nd semifinal that year. What a blown opportunity for Barker. Navratilova and Evert both being taken out for her, and a great head to head with Wade on the year. She would never have another chance like that again.
     
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  16. PDJ

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    That is a poor record, however, I for one am very grateful to Wade for winning Wimbledon as I probably would have taken an interest in tennis many years later. I recall vividly, at a very young age, what that victory meant to my country. Virginia Wade, Wimbledon Champion and that can never be taken away from her. And good on her.
     
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  17. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    And what a lost opportunity for England too! I wonder when was last time 2 brits played in a major final, men or women or in the middle of both!
     
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  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...and on centennial Wimbly !!!!
     
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  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I thought Kodes was the most underrated champion on TT but Wade is just the same
     
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  20. PDJ

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    That's an interesting question! With the men I imagine it might be Perry/bunny austin? With the women, possibly the Mortimer/trueman/jones/wade eras. But I shall have fun looking it up! Cheers
     
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  21. PDJ

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    I'll check for semi appearances, but I'm pretty sure, off the top of my head, that the 1961 Mortimer/trueman Wimbledon final was the last major played by brits. Aside, my mother adored Christine Trueman.
     
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  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Good one, did Ann Jones and Wade play a major final?
     
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  23. PDJ

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    I'm pretty sure they didn't, but they might have reached semis- ie when wade won US in 1968 but I'd have to check :)
     
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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I think the last good era for english tennis were the 70 with slammers in 3!'! women champs like Wade,Barker,Jones plus top male like Taylor,Mottram,Cox and AO finalist John Lloyd
    Uk last won the Wightmam Cup in the 70 and last made DC final in the 70
     
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  25. PDJ

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    Possibly the 60s were stronger for the women? We certainly won the Wightman Cup in 78- came down to final doubles with wade/barker edging evert/shriver.
     
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  26. PDJ

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    Kiki- I've only gone back to 1945, post WW2:
    British Women
    French 1956: Mortimer reached final. Angela Buxton semi. Both lost to Gibson
    French 1957: Shirley bloomer won. Ann jones lost in semi to Head Knode.
    French 1963: jones reached final, trueman the semi. Both lost to turner.
    Nothing since.
    I'll check the other slams. :)
     
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  27. PDJ

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    2 British women competing in semis of slam:
    Wimbledon
    1956: Buxton beat Pat Ward, lost final to Shirley Fry
    1960: jones & trueman both reached semis before losing.
    1961: Mortimer won final over Trueman
    1977: Wade won, Barker lost semi to r/up Stove

    US- this is by far the best showing by multiple Brits reaching semi or better. Who'd have known!
    1959: Trueman beat Jones in semi, lost final to Bueno
    1961: Jones beat Mortimer in semi, losing final to Hard
    1963: Deirdre Catt & Jones both lost in semi.
    1968: Wade beat Jones in semi, winning title over BJK.

    Australian
    I can find no occasion post 1945 where 2 Brits reached the semi in same year.

    NB there are quite a few occasions where a third British woman reached the quarters when 2 others went at least 1 round better.

    What I found particularly interesting was how consistent Ann Jones was over her long, and definitely distinguished career. Kudos to her- & I believe deserves a thread!
    Best. Paul
     
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  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Wightman Cup was a big event with a big atmosphere back then.it was the equivalent of men´s World Cup held at Hartford, with the US team agaisnt Australia.
     
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  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    True, she was a great champion and the best in the world for years behind the unmatchable trio of Court,Bueno and King Moffit.I think the second half of the 60´s, with Jones, old Mortimer and Truman and emergent Wade were excellent for british tennis, too.

    As for men, other than Murray and Henman, one has to dig deep inside the 70´s, with a very good foursome (Taylor,Cox,LLoyd and Mottram) even if they were unable to win a major title.Of those 4, IMO Mark Cox was the better player.He was a clear underachiever, while Taylor achieved a lot more with a lesser game.
     
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  30. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    You tube has just added the 1984 Wimbledon Semifinal. I had never seen this match. Hana was off her best game undoubtedly, but Evert was on top of hers. She made zero unforced errors, in the first set and damn few in the second, moved well and passed well. 6-1, 6-2. .

    While in the 1981 final rout, I really could not give Chris much credit ( Hana literally could not keep a ball in the court), here I will. Evert was in one of her moods where she simply would not give anything away.https://youtu.be/eYME_ZPiP_k?t=2m57s
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
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  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Oh yes, Hana lost the 81 Wimbledon final and Chris won the 84 SF...and the 1980 US final which Hana played well.But, the 1982 US final...Hana lost it more than Chris won it.
     
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  32. DMan

    DMan Professional

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    First, the 1981 Wimbledon final. Chris Evert Lloyd (as she was at the time) deserves 100% of the credit for that win. When you reach a major final, it's your chance to play your best, and do what you need to do to claim the title. Evert did exactly that. It was not as if Hana was leading Chris, playing better, in a winning position, yet suffered a freak fall and had to retire. No, she was simply outplayed by Evert. It may not go down in history as one of the best Wimbledon finals. Evert simply continued the brilliant form she displayed that entire fortnight, playing rock-solid, consistent, unwavering, mentally perfect tennis. Chris was very psyched and very motivated for Wimbledon that year. No one was going to beat her. And obviously not Hana, in her first Wimbledon final, and fourth major final in a row. Hana may have thought momentum was on her side. But then she crumbled when faced with that opportunity.

    As for their 1984 Wimbledon semifinal, there were some similarities to the 1981 semi. But first, Hana, as the #3 seed in 1984, was considered by some, and most notably Hana herself, as the favorite. Chris was in the midst of her devastating run of losses to Martina - having just suffered a devastating 6-3,6-1 loss in the finals of the French. Evert also lost to Kathy Jordan in the semis of Eastbourne prior to Wimbledon.
    Hana on the other hand had won 5 tournaments to start the year, and beat Martina in January, ending her 56 match winning streak. She also extended Martina in two very close three setters on clay (Amelia Island and Paris), in events where Martina went on to crush Chris. With Hana's game suited to Chris, it was not surprising odds makers may have favored Hana.
    And, Hana made the fateful mistake of talking herself up, and claiming she was going to beat Chris. Ooohh, the worst unforced error you could ever make against Chris Evert. Yes, Chris heard that comment. And she didn't like it. But it served as even extra motivation for Chris.
    Hana didn't show up mentally for that match. Almost as though she knew by opening up her mouth and bragging about beating Chris before the match meant she had cooked her own goose. And it was a scorcher!
    The 45 minute semi was one of the shortest on record for a women's semi between two highly ranked opponents.
    While Hana may have had confidence going into the match, don't forget that Evert had not lost to Hana since their 1981 French semi. More than 3 years!
     
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  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I do think that Evert´s 1980 sf win against Austin gave fresh blood to her and, specially, a big dose of self confidence and that she could win any big title against anybody,again.In fact, that was to be one of the two poor showings of Hana vs Chris in 1980-81.

    While Hana took a set off Chris at the FO sf and USOF in 1980, and beat her at 1981 RG, she was clearly beaten by Chris at Wimbledon 1981, but also at the USO QF that same year.That Flushing Meadows match should have been Hana´s revenge but it went exactly like their match at Wimbledon two months before.
     
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  34. BTURNER

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    I agree with most of this, and I did not mean to suggest Evert did not deserve 'full credit' so much as to say that we did not really get to see her real form in the '81 final, because Hana lost the points so early on, that Chris did not have much of a chance to do more than hit a few good passes and some solid returns. Points did not last long enough for Evert to 'strut her stuff'.

    Evert could afford to passively wait for the girl to self destruct and it wasn't much of a wait. By 1984, Evert was a different player herself playing with a graphite racket, and she was working on being more assertive earlier in rallies. I definitely got the sense that Evert meant business, she was at least forced to move well in this one.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2015
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  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hana was damn nervous and I think she did not do much better than Zvereva vs Graf in the 1988 Roland Garros final.
     
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  36. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I think the 1984 match between Chris and Hana was a crossroads for both. For Chris, it was a much needed boost of confidence that carried Chris into the first set tiebreaker against Martina in the final. She NEEDED that desperately after being crushed twice on clay. She had to make Martina work harder in their matches and she needed her to fear her once again. Chris succeeded.

    For Hana, following this match, she released a lot of the hostility that had built up between she and Martina and Chris. She felt disrespected by both players and largely forgotten after injuries and pressures mounted leading to the slump in 82-83.

    What a lot of people don't get about Hana (same could go for Jimmy Arias, Andrea Temesvari, etc.) is that at no fault of her own, she was heavily built up by the media after reaching four consecutive grand slam titles. She bought into her own hype too. But what happens when you're young and you get hurt is other players gain confidence against you. They figure you out, you have to now deal with expectations, your ranking slips, and then tournament promoters, tour officials, and even some of the media start treating you differently. It's as if they are mad with you because you didn't live up to THEIR expectations. It's like poor Jimmy Arias once said, for a while everything is Mr. Arias this, and Mr. Arias that. But if you slip, you can't even get someone to rent a car for you. They literally treat you differently. Today, someone like Venus Williams' ranking might slip into the 30's but people still treat her like she's Venus Williams. Hana was not given that courtesy even though she had already won two slams, reached number four (was widely recognized as number 2 in 1981), and still had a recognizable name with the fans.

    She apologized to Martina at the US Open that year and also had a "good talk" with Chris (no apology) at the same tournament. Hana then skipped the Australian, not because she was injured, but because she wanted a fresh start.

    The break from the tour cleared the air, and Hana started to play much better in 1985 immediately defeating both Martina and Chris right off the bat. In fact, following the 1984 Wimbledon semi debacle, Hana went 5-5 vs. Chris in their last ten matches against one another.

    So Chris found herself in the summer of 1984, just when many people, not just Hana, started writing her off. Pam, Kathy Jordan, other players, even Martina was accused of being patronizing towards Chris. Bud Collins is the one that flat out said during NBC's coverage of Hana's match with Tanvier in the 3rd round that the only player that could defeat Martina was Hana, not Chris. Hana didn't say that - Bud did. It's right there on youtube.

    This turned into a PR nightmare for Hana, but she came out of the crisis better for having gone through it. She was still prone to say things that she shouldn't occasionally, but she was a lot more sensitive towards both Martina and Chris. That's what ultimately improved those relationships.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2015
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  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I think Navratilova and Evert joined forces against Hana...because they were clearly seeing the threat coming when Hana won her first major titles.
     
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  38. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    The problem for Hana was that her early win over Martina, as good as it was, was still just one win. She did follow it up with three set matches against Martina at Amelia Island and the French. But Hana needed to break through when it really counted and hadn't done that since 1981.

    Likewise, Chris had not lost to Hana in three years. So I can see where she would be sensitive to people talking up Hana. The fact was that despite Martina's dominance at the time, Chris was still dominating everyone else except maybe for Kathy Jordan and Manuela Maleeva both of whom she struggled with for a time.

    Hana said that she felt like they were ganging up on her. But Hana was rude to Martina in Paris after she lost that semi and the doubles final to her. She owed Martina an apology and eventually gave her one. With Chris, there was so much talk about Hana saying this or that about her, but I can't find any quotes to that effect.

    Hana gave a curious interview at Eastbourne right before that Wimbledon where she was watching Evert playing Sukova as she talked to a reporter. She was criticizing Chris' tactics against Helena which seemed odd to me. So I think the general attitude about Hana was right. But as far as what actually was said seems to really be about what others were saying more than Hana.

    It's sort of the difference between breaking the law or only breaking the spirit of the law. So it might not really make any difference because Hana was due a comeupance of sorts. I just think that Bud Collins lit a match, and then Betsy Nagelsen who was in Chris' ear threw the gasoline on a fire that Hana herself didn't have much to do with.

    By the way, watching NBC's coverage of the final with Martina, Bud's commentary on the match with Hana was interesting too. He seemed to throw her under the bus for what he himself had said. He did quite a bit of *** covering that day, excuse my French.

    I still can't find the NBC version of the match between Hana and Chris. It's the last source that I haven't checked that might provide proof that Hana said that she was going to beat Chris.
     
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