Clay Court GOAT

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, May 18, 2009.

  1. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    and federer won :

    RG 2009 ( beating del potro, soderling )

    hamburg 2002 ( beating kuerten, safin )
    hamburg 2004 ( beating hewitt, gaudio,moya, coria)
    hamburg 2005 (beating coria,davydenko)
    hamburg 2007 ( beating nadal, moya )
    madrid 2009 ( beating nadal )
    madrid 2012 ( beating ferrer, berdych)

    federer would likely have done better on green clay than on red clay, given his style of play .....

    But leaving that aside, as far as actual results on red clay go, federer has done better at RG and the clay court masters ( or masters equivalents for Vilas ) ...

    When I mentioned mickey mouse tournaments, I meant many of those titles that vilas amassed in South America where very few of the top players were playing ....
     
  2. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    You're welcome, and thank you for creating the thread.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  3. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Thanks, hoodjem, for your interesting list. But I have some contradictions.

    I would raise Laver, Vilas, Nüsslein, Gimeno and Segura.

    Gimeno was near to Rosewall and Laver on clay.

    Segura is one of the all-time great claycourters.
     
  4. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I could not find much on Segura's CC wins. Can you offer some titles?
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, I realize that you go more for achievements and not for playing strength.

    Segura won the 1950 US Pro on clay against Kramer and Kovacs. He also won several claycourt events in 1961 and 1962. In the 1962 Zürich tournament he even beat Rosewall. Segura then was 41!

    In his prime (1950 to about 1954) there were not many clay events, alas.
     
  6. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    1. Nadal
    2. Borg
    3. Rosewall
    4. Wilding
    5. Cochet
    6. Lendl
    7. Wilander
    8. Lacoste
    9. Kuerten
    10. Laver
    11. Borotra
    12. Drobny
    13. Vilas
    14. Santana
    15. Bruguera
    16. Kozeluh
    17. Pietrangeli
    18. Courier
    19. Muster
    20. Federer
    21. Kodes
    22. von Cramm
    23. Emerson
    24. Nastase
    25. Trabert
    26. Orantes
    27. Panatta
    28. Agassi
    29. Connors
    30. Nusslein
    31. Tilden
    32. Gimeno
    33. Frank Parker
    34. Roche
    35. Sven Davidson
    36. Segura
    37. Jack Crawford
    38. Fred Perry
    39. J. E. Patty
    40.
    Decugis
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  7. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I love how you talk as if Vilas was Nadal's equal on clay, LOL! Sorry a guy who was getting 1-3 games per set off Borg on clay would not have "easily beaten" Federer on clay very often.
     
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Nüsslein was surely stronger than Kozeluh on clay. He won nine clay majors. Tilden once said that Nüsslein was stronger on clay than Lacoste. Borotra is much too high ranked.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Switch Kodes for Hozeluh and you've got the perfect list
     
  10. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Timnz offered evidence that Koželuh has the equivalent of 10 important clay tournament titles, and Nusslein has 4.

    Shouldn't Koželuh be ranked higher?
    Did Nusslein win the equivalent of 9 clay majors?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  11. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I rate Nüsslein's clay majors a bit higher because he faced stronger competition (Vines, Tilden, Cochet, Budge).

    Nüsslein's 9 clay majors:

    1933 World Championships Berlin
    1936 World Championships Paris
    1934 US Pro
    1937 French pro
    1938 French pro
    1936 British pro Southport
    1937 British Pro Southport
    1938 British pro Southport
    1939 British Pro Southport, Budge participating
     
  12. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Strange, no mention of Hoad.
    In case you don't know, he owned Davidson on clay (beat him at Roland Garros final, Italian final, Egyptian final, Toronto final), also Pietrangeli at Roland Garros, and beat Trabert in their two meetings at Roland Garros in 1958 and 1960. His lifetime against Rosewall on clay is about 50:50, perhaps better than that.
    And Toto Brugnon stated that Cochet, Lacoste, and Tilden would have won only a few games against Hoad on clay.
    In 1970, at age 35, and coming out of retirement, he beat 21-year-old Orantes at centre court in the Italian in five sets.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  13. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    These look like minor majors.
     
  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree that Hoad should be included in that proud list and on a high place.

    I believe that Rosewall leads Hoad on clay. Altogether I counted 83:59 matches in Rosewall's favour.

    Hoad also beat Orantes in 1970 at Madrid 6-3,6-3 before losing to Santana in four sets.
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, If I would belittle Hoad like you belittle Nüsslein, you maybe would become angry...
     
  16. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    1936 World Championships Paris

    Tell us more about the 1936 World Championship Paris. I think you've mentioned it before. What do you know about it? It obviously isn't the French Pro because Cochet won that in 1936.
     
  17. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Certainly. I tend to think of Hoad as a grass-court player or power player (on hard court)--my closed-minded thinking.
     
  18. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Do you mean altogether ON CLAY, or altogether on every surface? I think that on clay alone, the life-time score is very close, unless you exclude some events.
     
  19. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I believe he meant all surfaces.
     
  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    timnz, I don't know too much, alas.

    The 1936 Paris World Championship was held in August (no exact date). Nüsslein beat Tilden in SF and Cochet (in straight sets) in final. The schedule was made probably to push Cochet into the final. I do know that Plaa, Ramillon and A. Burke participated.

    If I remember well, Tilden betted before the tournament that Cochet would win.
     
  21. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, Yes I did. And the 50:50 balance for clay given by Dan cannot be right.
     
  22. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    As you know BobbyOne, Nusslein never lost a set to Cochet. That's is incredible.
     
  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, Nüsslein won all ten matches he played against Cochet in straight sets.
     
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    what a young field¡ with Cochet 35 and Tilden 43¡¡¡
     
  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I see that you have again forgotten history .

    Cochet was very strong in 1936 winning the French Pro clearly and reaching the finals of World Championships and the Southport event. He even won several amateur tournaments from 1945 to 1949 after he was reamateurized.

    I rank Cochet No.6 for 1936.

    Also Tilden was a top ten player that year. Don't forget that Big Bill beat Budge at least three times in 1939 (out of about 10 matches between them).
     
  26. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Vines had a flawless record against Cochet as well.
     
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Vines seems to have won all matches against Cochet but he did lose at least one set to the French.
     
  28. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    And Vines did lose many times to Nusslein.
     
  29. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    It looks to be right.
     
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Only in your Hoad eyes.

    Rosewall and Hoad did not play so many clay matches! They mostly played on fast surfaces.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  31. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Dan and BobbyOne,

    Let's try to be logical about the head to head of Rosewall against Hoad on clay. Dan, what is your head to head records on clay of the two and what is your head to head records in total?

    BobbyOne, same questions.

    The reason I ask this is because we have to see if the percentage that either one of you have of the two playing on clay is reasonable or not.
     
  32. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Yes, this is true. But this is beside the point.
    Hoad had a fantastic clay record.
     
  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    pc1, I have not counted the claycourt matches. As amateurs Hoad seems to have the edge even though some people wrote that Rosewall was stronger on clay.

    1957 Hoad could be 6:3. In 1958 Rosewall lead 6:1 on clay.

    In the 1960s Rosewall has probably the edge as he won the huge majority of all Hoad/Rosewall matches.

    All surfaces I have Rosewall 83:59 against Hoad
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  34. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Part of the problem is ignorance; we do not know the surfaces for every score we have.
    Here is a partial list of Hoad wins over Rosewall:

    1952 Australian Hardcourt Final (shale clay)
    1953 Australian Hardcourt Semifinal (shale clay)
    Hoad and Rosewall skipped the 1955 clay season preparing for the Davis Cup, and Hoad won many clay events in 1956 while Rosewall was in Australia preparing for Wimbledon on grass.
    1957 European tour: Hoad won tour on red shale clay against Rosewall (6 to 3?) (8 to 4?)
    1957 The Hague: Hoad defeated Rosewall in marathon five set final on red shale, Segura in semi-final.
    1957 Cairo: Hoad defeated Rosewall on clay in marathon five sets
    1957 South Africa: Hoad won tour, but surfaces are unknown.
    1959 Roland Garros: Hoad wins third place against Rosewall
    1960 Geneva: Hoad defeats Rosewall in final
    1960 Tokyo: Hoad defeats Rosewall in Japanese Pro final on clay
    1962 Hoad wins Italian tour on clay, Hoad/Rosewall matches unknown

    These are the known Hoad wins.

    For Rosewall over Hoad;
    1958 Roland Garros final
    1960 Roland Garros final
    1962 Geneva final
    1963 Poertschach, Austria (Bobby, did you see it? Was it on clay?)
    1963 and 1964 Cannes, Palais des Sports, possibly indoor, not clay

    Looks like a probable edge for Hoad, although any clay matches after 1964 came after Hoad lost his large right toe to surgery, and was less mobile.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  35. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    In 1958, a 4-1 lead on clay? Apart from Roland Garros, did they play any tournament matches on clay?
     
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I don' t think Hoad has any plan to come back to planet if he follows this thread...I thought he was a funny golden boy specially adored by women...can anybody tell some funny story of him?
     
  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I did not see Poertschach 1963. Then I did not know about Rosewall and Hoad. I only knew amateurs. Yes, it was on clay.

    I believe The Hague and Cairo tournaments were part of the tour and should not be counted twice.

    Rosewall was clearly stronger than Hoad from 1961 onward. Therefore he probably dominated him also on clay those years (1961 to 1964).

    The 1957 South African matches have probably been played on hard court.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  38. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan you again forgot the Perrier Cup: not a tournament but an important event and of course must be considered for the balance.

    I have corrected myself: Rosewall was 6:1 against Hoad on clay in 1958 (4:1 in Perrier Cup, 1:0 in French pro and 1:0 at Scheveningen).

    Considering the later years of Hoad's career (1961 to 1964) I guess that Rosewall has the edge on general clay playing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  39. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Its in general a problem to reconstruct, which events on the old pro tour were on clay. The Brits called all outdoor courts outside lawn tennis hard courts. In McCauleys book no surfaces are given. Geneva was a clay court, i have seen programs of the event, which was played in a club. Kitzbuhl was clay too, the Belgian and Dutch events at the sea, too. In France, not all events were clay, Cannes for instance was played in a Palais du sport indoors. On the Italian tour, clay and indoor events took place, its hard to tell which were clay. I have seen films of the Cannes indoor play, which was played on a linol underground.
    For South Africa i would assume hard courts. Certainly the main Johannesburg event was on hard court at Ellis Park. For the US, some Florida and California events could be clay events. In Hollywood, Florida, a clay event took place. Following my information, the Oklahoma event was played on clay.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  40. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    The Hague and Cairo tournaments were actual TOURNAMENTS outside the European tour, and, of course, Cairo is not in Europe at all.
    The South African version of "hardcourt" was, like the Australian, a type of dark shale clay, so this would count as clay.
    It still looks like an edge for Hoad lifetime on clay against Rosewall, especially as we have to exclude the two Cannes wins, which were not on clay.
     
  41. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    He had a lot of Hollywood friends, Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall, Debbie Reynolds, Frank Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, Sean Connery (a close friend, with whom he would share an apartment in Paris), Peter Ustinov, Kirk Douglas, Charlton Heston, Juiie Adams (co-star with Jimmy Stewart in "Bend of the River", whom he was photographed visiting on set in 1954).
    Although Lauren Bacall and Debbie Reynolds lost husbands through death and divorce in the late fifties, there was no "affair" with Hoad, despite the circumstances and reports of the interest of the actresses.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Great character this Hoad.I know he was long time and happily married to Jenny but I guess, the guy was just a world wide sex simbol.

    I remember how spanish press, even yellow press adored him , not just because of his close friendship with spanish players and living in the south of the country, but also because he helped so much the spanish team reach the DC finals...against Australia.He left big memories there and so did wife Jenny.
     
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Well explained, urban.
     
  44. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    The South African "Hardcourt" is not the British and Australian (clay) "Hardcourt"!
     
  45. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    You mean, in Britain and Australia in the 1950's and 1960's, "hardcourt" meant a clay court, but in South Africa (also descended from British tennis traditions and terminology) it meant something other than clay? Doesn't sound right.
    Of course, today, "hardcourt" in the U.S. refers to a rubber surface.
     
  46. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Clay-courts were called "hardcourts" back in the 1920s and before.
     
  47. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    This is interesting.

    Yes, the red ones can get pretty hard if they bake in the summer heat.

    (The green ones can get spongy if subjected to a lot of rain.)
     
  48. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Ellis Park hosted the biggest hard court, cement court event for many many years, so in SAF players start their tennis careers on hard hard, similar to California.

    The British always refeered to their clay court championships as hard courts, see Bournemouth, considered one of the world´s premiere cc events till 1970.

    I don´t knoe about Australians, they seem to have no cc all round the country¡
     
  49. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You could accept that South Africa does not have clay even though this does not fit to your Hoad admiration as Lew has won a tour on South African Hardcourts which does not count for his clay record.
     
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    They had their annual Australian Hardcourt Championships on clay.
     

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