Clay Court GOAT

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, May 18, 2009.

  1. Azzurri

    Azzurri Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    7,884
    Location:
    Next door to Elisha Cuthbert.
    would love to see nadal/muster...love it.
     
  2. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,210
    Location:
    Winesburg, Ohio
    Exactly. Muster was winning clay events well into September, after the US Open had taken place. Nadal's four clay court titles in 2008 came during the normal clay season, four of his five came in the same period in 2007, and his four titles in 2006 came in the same period as well.

    And it's not like he didn't lose on clay in 1995; he still suffered defeats against Costa and Corretja. High quality clay court opponents, to be sure, but so were Nadal's losses from 2006-2008: didn't lose a match on clay in 2006, lost to four time French Open finalist and reigning holder of the Coupe des Mousquetaires, Roger Federer, in Hamburg in 2007, and lost to former FO champion, JC Ferrero, in Rome in 2008.
     
  3. the little dasher

    the little dasher New User

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    62
    Thanks for those stats on Muster Mustard. You must be a big fan.

    That sort of record over such a long stretch certainly does stack up as an exceptional performance in the game's history.
     
  4. Tomaz Bellucci

    Tomaz Bellucci Rookie

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    Sao Paulo, Brasil
    Great and amazing stats :shock:
     
  5. boris becker 1

    boris becker 1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    Messages:
    364
    1. Borg
    2. Guga
    3. Nadal
    4. Vilas
    5.Bruguera
    6. Rosewall
    7. Muster
    8. Agassi
    9. lendl
    10 Courier


    anyone that didnt put Bruguera on their list is a disgrace
     
  6. lambielspins

    lambielspins Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    2,715
    Putting Bruguera above Rosewall, Muster (even with an extra French), and Lendl is a much bigger disgrace than not having him in the top 10.
     
  7. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,885
    Location:
    behind your curtain
    LOL Guga before Nadal RLMAO!!!
    Agassi before Lendl and Courier good one, you sure are the joker of the day:)
     
  8. boris becker 1

    boris becker 1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2004
    Messages:
    364
    bruguera would get in nadals head if they played. rafa wouldnt be able to wear him down. sergi would drop shot rafa to death and make it a war.


    the year bruguera beat courier in the final I have not seen anyone play as good on clay as that match.
     
  9. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Messages:
    9,745
    Check out Nadal's 2008 RG run or for that matter Borg's runs. That's the best CC tennis you will ever see.
     
  10. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,611
    Bruguera was really lazy. That was his real problem. Were it not for that, not only would he have more FO's, he would have been a real threat at the other slams as well. He had as much spin as Nadal does today. He had good hands. He had great court coverage. He actually was quite a bit more talented than Muster, too bad he didn't have 1/4 of Muster's work ethic. Nobody was able to get him to work, not his coaches, not John Mcenroe, not his father. A shame.
     
  11. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Results--not coulda, shoulda, wanna.

    1. Borg
    2. Nadal
    3. Rosewall
    4. Cochet
    5. Lendl
    6. Wilander
    7. Laver
    8. Lacoste
    9. Kuerten
    10. Borotra
    11. Drobny
    12. Santana
    13. Gimeno
    14. Vilas
    15. Bruguera
    16. Federer
    17. Muster
    18. Courier
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  12. JoshDragon

    JoshDragon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    2,235
    Please explain how a 3 time RG champion is better than a 4 time RG champion.
     
  13. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    You go JD. Good point!
     
  14. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    When was the 53-match winning streak of Vilas's on clay? 1977?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    Didn't play Borg at all during that streak. Borg was 3-0 against Vilas that year.
    And yes the streak was in 1977. Some have the streak at 50 if you count another tournament.

    I know this may sound silly to some of you but while I don't think Jimmy Connors is the clay court GOAT I do think he was a great clay court player. He won the US Open on har tru and won many top clay court tournaments. I think Connors is a top clay court player. I think he very well could be in the top 15 of all time. Put it this way, I think he's far better than Michael Chang and yet Chang has one French Open and Connors doesn't.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  16. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Clay-court GOATs

    1. Borg
    2. Nadal
    3. Rosewall
    4. Cochet
    5. Lendl
    6. Wilander
    7. Lacoste
    8. Kuerten
    9. Laver
    10. Borotra
    11. Drobny
    12. Vilas
    13. Santana
    14. Bruguera
    15. Pietrangeli
    16. Federer
    17. Muster
    18. Courier
    19. von Cramm
    20. Emerson
    21. Trabert
    22. Agassi
    23. Connors
    24. Gimeno
    25. Frank Parker
    26. Roche
    27. Nastase
    28. Sven Davidson
    29. Jack Crawford
    30. Fred Perry
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  17. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Connors was ferocious on any surface, and he won the US Open on har-tru in 1976 over Borg, and was runner-up on green-clay at the USO twice (1975, 1977).
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  18. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    May-October 1977 and it was controversially ended by Ilie Nastase and the spaghetti-strung racquet he was using in the match (1977 Aix-en-Provence final). Vilas retired in the best of 5 sets match in protest after Nastase won the first two sets 6-1, 7-5. After that match, Vilas won another 21 clay-court matches in a row before 1977 ended. Ignoring that Nastase match, Vilas won 74 clay-court matches in a row and 74 matches in a row overall (not all of them on clay).

    2-0, seeing as the 3rd was in January 1978 in the semi finals of the Masters. Still, the fact is that during the clay-streak, Vilas could only beat who was in front of him and he did that. I believe that Vilas could possibly have beaten Borg at that time because he was playing so well and his confidence was sky high, so I don't know why people just assume that Borg would have hammered him had they met on clay in the second half of 1977. Is it the 1978 French Open final that convinces them? But Vilas wasn't as good then as he had been 6-9 months previously. Even though I think Vilas played a great match in the 1978 French Open final inspite of the scoreline being one-sided in Borg's favour, the Borg in that tournament was Borg at his absolute best, close to perfection.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  19. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    Urban,

    I am now of the understanding that von Cramm and Nusslein only played once and that von Cramm won but in virtually all the practice matches Nusslein won. I've been generally of the opinion over the years that Nusslein is clearly up there with the Vines, Budge, and Perry trio (which I suppose would make it a quartet) as far as tennis strength is concerned. From what I have read of his style, he seems to be a 1930's version of Agassi, hitting the ball on the rise and never missing. Well at least the older version of Agassi. I'm sure Nusslein enjoyed tennis more than Agassi. lol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2009
  20. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    I suppose technically you're correct but the Masters is considered, strangely enough to be a part of the 1977 season so it's really 3-0.

    It's kind of like American Football. The 2010 Super Bowl will be considered a part of the 2009 National Football League season.
     
  21. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Mais oui--
    1. Borg
    2. Nadal
    3. Rosewall
    4. Cochet
    5. Lendl
    6. Wilander
    7. Laver
    8. Lacoste
    9. Kuerten
    10. Borotra
     
  22. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395

    It's appropriate you brought this thread back considering the Borg/Rosewall clay court thread.

    My fantasy clay match ups of recent years. Kuerten at his best against Nadal at his best.

    Nastase against Federer. Super speed, super touch by Nastase against Federer.
     
  23. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,639
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
  24. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Nastase could probably out-psych Fed.
     
  25. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    In my mind I see Nastase winning most of the time on clay, especially with wood. Come to think of it, with wood it would be a fascinating match up on any surface.
     
  26. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Nastase was a magician, but a crazy magician.

    He and Tiriac were like Rasputin and the Wild Man of Borneo.
     
  27. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,639
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Do you guys know Tiriac is Romania's first BILLIONAIRE? The guy is the richest man in tennis! He started the first private bank there and started numerous banks/businesses in the country, post-Communism. He was "crazy like a fox":

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Ţiriac

    [​IMG]
     
  28. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    So Romania's first billionaire is a man who used to eat glass on a bet. lol.
     
  29. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Holy cow--Tiriac is a billionaire?

    Incroyable!



    Ahhh; this explains a lot: "In 1983, he [Tiriac] became a tennis manager; above all, he managed Boris Becker from 1984 to 1993."
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
  30. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,639
    Location:
    Houston, Texas

    Yes Hoodjem, lol. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that. He was "crazy like a Fox" wasn't he? Vilas and Becker, not bad as a player, coach, and manager, but he was known to be pretty strange. I'll take L. Bergelin instead!
     
  31. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    If you had Tiriac and Nastase and Becker and Vilas play a doubles match, I think someone would be killed.

    Three crazies and one poet--what a combination.
     
  32. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Here's the greatest claycourter thread.

    Where's Kuerten? Where's Federer?
     
  33. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    Not that it means much but I always got the impression Kuerten was one of the happiest men ever to play tennis. He seemed to really get joy out of just playing and hitting the ball.
     
  34. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,639
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    I think you're list has it just about right Hoodjem. Kuerten is top 10. Federer is probably in the #10-#15 range or #15-#20 all time on your list. Some may disagree, but top 15-20 all time on a surface is really not bad. There have been so many greats over the years.
     
  35. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,395
    Of course. Tennis has been around a long time and there have been a lot of great players. If a player ranked in the top 15-20 on every surface for all time, that player probably would be in the top ten ever overall, maybe top five. The ranking of 10-15 is obviously even better.
     
  36. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Mais oui.
    Claycourt GOATs--

    1. Borg
    2. Nadal
    3. Rosewall
    4. Cochet
    5. Lendl
    6. Wilander
    7. Lacoste
    8. Kuerten
    9. Laver
    10. Borotra
    11. Wilding
    12. Drobny
    13. Vilas
    14. Santana
    15. Bruguera
    16. Pietrangeli
    17. Federer
    18. Muster
    19. Courier
    20. von Cramm
    21. Emerson
    22. Trabert
    23. Agassi
    24. Connors
    25. Gimeno
    26. Frank Parker
    27. Roche
    28. Nastase
    29. Sven Davidson
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  37. dmt

    dmt Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1,655
    this is a pretty good list. I must admit i am not an expert on players before the open era, but i still think Guga is too low. Maybe i am biased since i am a huge fan of his clay court game, but i do think he should be higher.
     
  38. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,739
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    True. Guga is very, very good on clay. But the players ahead of him are damn good.

    After all, what is the name of the FO trophy? (Numbers 1-10 are pretty ethereal company.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  39. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,524
    Wilding

    Where does Anthony Wilding fit on this list? As far as I can see he was mostly unbeaten for about 5 years on clay (1910 to 1914 seasons) and probably tallied the most clay court titles of anyone in history.
     
  40. kimbahpnam

    kimbahpnam Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2007
    Messages:
    2,675
    If Nadal is 2 and Fed lost 3 FO FINALS to him, wouldn't that give Fed more credibility on clay? Not to mention beating him in Madrid?
     
  41. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,211
    Here's a poll from another that has Federer as the #7 greatest CC of all time.

    1. Björn Borg
    2. Rafael Nadal
    3. Mats Wilander
    4. Gustavo Kuerten
    5. Ivan Lendl
    6. Guillermo Vilas
    7. Roger Federer
    8. Andre Agassi
    9. Sergi Bruguera
    10. Rod Laver
    11. Thomas Muster
    12. Ilie Nastase
    13. Juan Carlos Ferrero
    14. Jim Courier
    15. Pete Sampras
    16. Boris Becker
    17. Guillermo Coria
    18. Jan Kodes
    19. Gaston Gaudio
    20. Albert Costa
    21. Andres Gimeno

    http://www.rankopedia.com/ZoneID=3/15602/Step1/2657.htm
     
  42. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
    Messages:
    5,544
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    That's an open era list.
     
  43. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
    Messages:
    5,544
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Never mind. I think I've misread this post.
     
  44. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    25,112
    Location:
    Cwmbran, Wales
    I better clarify my points in that post.

    1. Vilas could have beaten Borg in the second half of 1977 had they played because his confidence was so high

    2. Why do people consider that Borg would have definitely won if they had played in the second half of 1977? Is it the 1978 French Open final that convinces them?

    3. Vilas played a great match in the 1978 French Open final, but the scoreline was one-sided in Borg's favour

    4. Borg was at his absolute best during the 1978 French Open.
     
  45. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    4,486
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    You rate Laver too low IMO. He did quite well vs Rosewall on clay. I can see Kuerten ranking over Laver since he would have won 5 or 6 Frenchs had his hip not gone out. However do you really think Wilander or even Lendl would win over a series of matches vs Laver with both in their primes on clay?
    Also if one is giving Kuerten benefit of doubt on his career (the only way he could rank over Laver on clay IMO) then he too should rank higher in that case.
     
  46. fed_rulz

    fed_rulz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Messages:
    3,621
    As much as I love to see Fed at #7, this list is a joke if it rates Sampras and Becker at #15 & #16 respectively. They belong somewhere around 41-50. How on earth are they ranked ahead of someone who actually won a FO (Gaudio) or someone who reached the finals (Coria)? Lists like these demonstrate the favorable bias towards the players of the past generation, while short-changing the current generation in the process.
     
  47. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    4,655
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario

    You are seriously using rankopedia as your source!?!!?!?!

    And those rankings are pure thrash. Courier just barely in front of Sampras and Becker. Coria over Kodes and Gimeno. Laver below Agassi and Bruguera. Complete nonsense.

    You are desperate to find ways to pimp your hero Federer and it is getting sad.
     
  48. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,211
    No I'm not serious. Of course there's are names on there that I wouldn't included. I just want to get back at some folks undermined Roger, not just his clay level but everything else about his game/ability. I wouldn't list this on other forum, just this one. Now you know why.
     
  49. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
    Messages:
    5,544
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I don't think Vilas was capable of beating a healthy Borg on any surface. However Borg wasn't healthy (at the US Open) and that's part of the game, so it doesn't matter.
     
  50. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,751
    you do understand that you are not exactly gaining any credibility for yourself or federer when the whole list is just so inane. Federer at #7 is one thing but some of those others there are ridiculous.

    In an effort to prop up roger, you end up looking like a ******* because the list itself is made with regards to little logic.

    Federer at #7 becomes questionable by default because the whole list is just bizarre.
     

Share This Page