Clay Court GOAT

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, May 18, 2009.

  1. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    1. Borg
    2. Nadal
    3. Rosewall
    4. Cochet
    5. Lendl
    6. Wilander
    7. Wilding
    8. Lacoste
    9. Kuerten
    10. Laver
    11. Borotra
    12. Drobny
    13. Vilas


    JMHO.
     
  2. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Remember, Rosewall was the best on clay of his era, and for years the French Pro Championships were indoor wood, precluding him from accumulating more clay slam wins.
     
  3. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  4. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Good list. I know there are arguments about Wilding but I think your opinion is fine.

    I'll throw a few potential names there as possibles on the list---Fred Perry, Hans Nusslein, Bill Tilden.

    Borg to me is probably the best because not only was he virtually unbeatable at his best but it was hard to win a game off of him, let alone sets and matches.
     
  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I celebrate Drobny´s in that list, he has been praised by his peers as one of the most talented player of the late 40´s-early 50´s period, and certainly an all time people´s fav player.Possibly having the most famous drop shots of all time.
     
  6. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks. We aim to please (and be fair).
     
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ¿What about the 40´s players like Kovacs,Parker,Davidson,Schroeder - kramer not having a big record on clay-?.It seems to me that they are frequently overlooked, like tennis went from Budge and Perry to Sedgman and Gonzales with nothing really worthy in the middle.Drobny himself was possibly more a 40´s player than a 50´s player ( although his major success would come in the mid 50´s).
     
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    By the way, 1940´s team of Brommwich and Quist could challenge for the best team of all time, along Hewitt-Mc Millan, Fleming-Mac, Newc-Roche or Hoad-Rosewall...
     
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I appreicate your loyalty to Rosewall.I think over 3 sets he´d be a match for Borg ,Nadal or Kuerten, but I don´t think he´d keep the full track wide 5 sets...still, I´d rather see Ken Rosewall on 5-6 genious strokes of him than a full match between Borg and Nadal.In fact, I´d rather sit and see Rosewall than almost any other player ( 4-5 exceptions made).
     
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    After having seen Drovny on that list, I wonder if we could start a new threatd called : the best drop shots ever.I think this may be the only stroke not having a thread.

    Here goes my initial list:

    1/Drobny
    2/Santana
    3/Nastase
    4/Orantes
    5/Pietrangeli
    6/Mayer
    7/Panatta
    8/Rosewall
    9/Federer
    10/Mc Enroe

    I´m sure many of the 50´s and 60´s pros other than those mentioned, had a good hand for drop shots; I just cannot recall any but there should be
     
  11. Justin Side

    Justin Side Hall of Fame

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    I'd like to see that. I'd also like to see a list of the top 10 greatest clay court winning percentages in the Open Era. Rafa and Borg are #1 and #2, but I don't know who comes after those two and in what order. Would be interesting to find out who makes that top 10.
     
  12. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    I've done this countless times. They're both at around 97 winning % for the relevant prime years.
     
  13. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Wilding

    So a little behind Wilding winning %age in his prime years then....
     
  14. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    I know little about that era, but if this is Wilding's percentage on clay against the best in the world then he's on the same level as Borg and Nadal.
     
  15. Justin Side

    Justin Side Hall of Fame

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    Career clay stats for the 5 men that won 3 or more French Open titles in the Open Era(Stats from ATP's website):

    Borg: 245-39(86.3%) record, 6 French Open's and 30 titles.
    Nadal: 203-16(92.7%) record, 5 French Open's and 29 titles.
    Lendl: 329-75(81.4%) record, 3 French Open's and 29 titles.
    Wilander: 264-80(76.7%) record, 3 French Open's and 21 titles.
    Kuerten: 181-78(69.9%) record, 3 French Open's and 14 titles.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    ^^^Nice picture.
     
  17. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  18. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  19. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    ^^^Too bad.

    (All I see are red Xs.)
     
  20. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Hoodjem, I don't know why that is. They show up as large images on my computer.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  21. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2011
  22. Clay lover

    Clay lover Hall of Fame

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    delete post
     
  23. Clay lover

    Clay lover Hall of Fame

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    Man, Muster probably had a higher winning pct. on clay than both Guga and Wilander, but too bad he doesn't win many slams...
     
  24. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Thomas Muster's win-loss records on clay are:

    1984: 2-1 (66.67 winning percentage)
    1985: 11-7 (61.11 winning percentage)
    1986: 21-10 (67.74 winning percentage)
    1987: 17-10 (62.96 winning percentage)
    1988: 43-9 (82.69 winning percentage)
    1989: 4-2 (66.67 winning percentage)
    1990: 37-11 (77.08 winning percentage)
    1991: 28-13 (68.29 winning percentage)
    1992: 30-13 (69.77 winning percentage)
    1993: 55-10 (84.62 winning percentage)
    1994: 37-9 (80.43 winning percentage)
    1995: 65-2 (97.01 winning percentage)
    1996: 46-3 (93.88 winning percentage)
    1997: 9-9 (50 winning percentage)
    1998: 20-11 (64.52 winning percentage)
    1999: 1-6 (14.29 winning percentage)
    2010: 0-1 (0 winning percentage)

    ATP Tour career: 426-127 (77.03 winning percentage)
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    In 1995 he was an animal.saw him live a lot of times, on european red clay.I think he trained in the Austrian alps, isn´t it?.If you think Nadal or Lendl were fit, you should know Mr Muster in the mid 90´s....just a ****ing beats all over.Poor Chang¡¡¡
     
  26. Chris Evert Fan

    Chris Evert Fan New User

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    Bjorn Borg and Rafael Nadal are right up there with each other on clay. It is difficult to decide who the better clay court player is. For the sake of respect for history, and because Nadal is not yet finished with his career, I will say that Bjorn Borg was the better clay court player. But give Nadal another year or two, and I suspect that we will crown him as the greatest men's clay court player of all time.

    Nevertheless, is this discussion limited to only men? Even if Nadal surpasses Borg, in my opinion he still needs to surpass Chris Evert, the greatest of them all on clay, at least as far as I am concerned. Although Nadal's 81 match win streak on clay was truly incredible, it still pales in comparison with Chrissie's 125 match win streak! I also figure that had Evert competed in the 1976-1978 French Opens, she probably would have walked away with 1-3 more French Open championships.

    Time will tell, though. As great as Chris was, I will not count Nadal out. Still, he has an uphill battle if he wants to dethrone Chris.
     
  27. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    That pretty much the assumption anymore, in thread after thread, I am afraid. I try to redirect occasionally just a reminder that women's tour had a history worth conversation, but thread after thread, it gets daunting. There are not very many folks interested in the former women. Mention Rod Laver you get 6 replies. Mention Margaret Court, you get one. Now if you want to talk about the Seles stabbing and its affect on Graf... LOL
     
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    True.let´s discuss best strokes by women, and giv´em the respect they deserve.Here is my list )those I´ve seen):

    SERVE. 1.Serena 2-.Martina Navratilova 3-.Wade 4-.Sharapova/Steffi
    VOLLEY. 1-.Navratilova 2.King 3-.Court/Goolagong 4-.Mandlikova 5-.Hingis
    FH.1-.Steffi 2-.Sharapova 3-.Mandlikova 4-.Ruzici 5-.Jaeger/Seles
    BH. 1-.Evert 2-.Seles 3-.Henin/Goolagong 4-.Sabatini 5-.Fromholtz (lovely)
    OVERHEAD 1-.Martina 2-.Shriver 3-.Schultz 4-.Court 5-.Evert (yes, 100% reliable).
    ALL COURT 1-.Court 2-.Navratilova/Mandlikova 4-.Serena/Hingis 5.Evonne

    DROP SHOT 1-.Evert 2-.Navratilova 3-.Hingis 4-.Jaeger 5-.Goolagong
    LOB 1-.Evert 2-.King 3-.Sanchez

    MENTHAL STRENGTH 1-.Evert 2-.Graf 3-.Seles 4-.Navratilova/Serena 5-.Henin/Sanchez
    TACTICS 1-.Evert 2-.King 3-.Sanchez 4-.King/Henin

    PHYSICHAL TALENT 1-.Graf 2-.Serena 3-.Navratilova 4-.Court 5-.Mandlikova/Sharapova


    I wish I had seen a peak M.E.Bueno, Lenglen, Chambers,Gibson,Marble and Mills.Too late.
     
  29. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Oh I know you appreciate the women's game. There has been always been core of what I refer to as - pure tennis aficionados including you, here that absolutely view the women in exactly the same way as the men. They study, learn and watch tennis beyond gender bias. But even among them, human nature dictates. If their posts on women get no response, but their posts on men do, they will tend to lean toward what gets read as reflected by responses regardless of their personal and more broad interest. Its the way of the world in a chat forum but the bias has gotten worse, Kiki. We will always have more threads on Agassi' or Sampras, than even the greatest of women. but now We will have more threads on agassi's book or the men's clay game, than the entire women's tour.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2011
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    True.I know you are a balanced ans insightful tennis fan, that has interest in tennis, be it played by a man or by a woman.I think they are both great and complement each other.

    I always thought that man´s tennis can be generaly speaking considered flashier, but women´s tennis is more basic sound, and more kind of tactichal or strategic, and at the end, a normal club player will learn much more, really much more, learning from two women champions rather than two men´s champions.Some of my teachers told me so when I started playing, and it seems to be still true.plus,I´ve played with some junior national champions in different places, and they make yous trive and keep constant to tennis basics much more often than men, who really want to look flashier and that´s it.

    The true problem is, the absolute most of TT posters, are tennis tv watchers and not many of them have had enough of competitive tennis by themselves; and I don´t blame them, but rather state a feature of those posters.
     
  31. Xemi666

    Xemi666 Professional

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    Because if men and women competed in the same tour, the women would get destroyed. I, for one, am interested in who plays at the highest level, and I'm sure the same thing happens to many people.
     
  32. ksbh

    ksbh Banned

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    I think this thread belongs in the general section, because the clay GOAT happens to be the current World's No. 1 player! ;)
     
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    OPEN ERA MEN: Borg,Nadal,Wilander,Lendl,Kuerten,Bruguera,Kodes,Muster,Agassi and Vilas

    OPEN ERA LADIES

    Evert,Seles,Graf,Henin,Court,Sanchez,Navratilova,Mandlikova,
    Serena and Goolagong.
     
  34. reversef

    reversef Hall of Fame

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    Women tennis is often forgotten, it's true. And it's a pity. Nevertheless, leave Borg/Nadal and Evert where they belong. Comparing a woman from the 70's-80's with a man who plays these days is a strange idea. I started watching tennis in the eighties and it was so obvious that the first rounds were a real walk in the park for the women top players in those days that someone like Evert was still fresh as a rose in the semi-finals most of the time (and she was not young anymore). The current level of women tennis may be very low, but women tennis has much more depth today. There are various reasons for that. I don't say that to minimize Chris Evert's achievements, but I would like to see if she would win 125 consecutive matches on clay today. It would mean being able to avoid injuries, exhaution, day-offs, on-fire opponents for an incredible amount of time. And I'm only talking about women tennis and its very bad current state. It's not easier to do on the ATP tour, I think.
     
  35. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Interesting idea: deeper field, but overall lower quality.
     
  36. racquetfreak

    racquetfreak Semi-Pro

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    under the cloak of nadal

    don't have time to sort thru all the earlier posts, however, it seems that but for nadal, federer is as good as or better that most of the players high on the lists suggesting clay court GOATness.
     
  37. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Depends on a person's definition of deeper field. I'm not sure if anyone out of the top few can challenge Clijsters (the real number one imo) if she is healthy and somewhat on her game. Venus would have a decent chance if she is healthy and of course Serena if she can come back which is in grave doubt considering how serious her injury was. I think the others are a step below Clijsters. The top five seems very weak to me now. Just a few years ago we had Henin, Clijsters, Serena, Venus, a better Sharapova for example.
     
  38. reversef

    reversef Hall of Fame

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    The current problem is the absence of a few women players who are both great AND in their prime. The Williams sisters are clearly past their prime. Clijsters is a different case: she won one major prior to retirement and has won 3 in her come back. Nevertheless, she doesn't play much, she's a mother, she has different goals. Sharapova is not the player she once was. Wozniacki? I don't know what her evolution will be, but she's currently a number one by default IMO. She could become a great player thought. I don't know.
    On the other hand, no doubt for me that a player ranked number 30 or 50 is much better than her equivalent in the eighties.
    If you combine the better competition (in the first rounds) and the more physical game, you obtain shorter careers, injuries and all those things.
     
  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    the GUAT (Greatest Underrated Any Time ) on clay might be Jan Kodes.Won 2 RG plus the other 2-3 big clay court events and beat on clay all the major players of his generation.


    Another one is Sergi Bruguera, who was a true complete CC master, and only injuries and a certain lack of confidence wore him down.he was better than Muster ( even if Muster is ahead on their H2H).

    Albert Costa won just once at Paris, but his OH BH is one of the best of the last years.
     
  40. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Wilander-Lendl

    I agree with the Men's list though I would put Lendl a nose in front of Wilander. They had remarkably similar achievements on Clay - 3 Roland Garros Wins, 2 Roland Garros finals, other important clay events - Rome etc. However Lendl won more clay events in his career - which gives him the nose ahead, given everything else is about equal.
     
  41. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    Rosewall retired decades ago
     
  42. ksbh

    ksbh Banned

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    True, but Rosewall isn't the current World's No. 1! ;)

     
  43. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Rosewall

    I think he was meaning that he believed that Rosewall not Nadal was the GOAT of Clay.
     
  44. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Neither is B.R. Borg.
     
  45. ksbh

    ksbh Banned

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    I realize that Tim, but if you read my remark again, you'll see I said the GOAT is the current World's No. 1. Rosewall may be the clay GOAT but he certainly isn't a current player! :)

    In any case, I have to disagree with Marcus. IMO, for Nadal the only challenge, for lack of a better word, for clay GOAT is from Borg.

     
  46. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    1. Borg
    2. Nadal
    3. Rosewall
    4. Cochet
    5. Lendl
    6. Wilander
    7. Laver
    8. Lacoste
    9. Kuerten
    10. Borotra
    11. Drobny
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=291689&highlight=Clay-courter
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2011
  47. ibbi

    ibbi Professional

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    I would put guys like Borg and Vilas still over Rafa simply on account of today there are far less guys I would call out and out clay courters. Guys who spend basically all their time playing on the surface. Nadal rose up just as the last era of such guys, Gaudio, Coria, Kuerten, even Canas were all fading away.

    To me it truly is between Borg and Vilas, two guys of the same era, both masters of the red stuff, whose primes overlapped, and their clay head to head? 11-2 to Borg. He beat Vilas all over the clay of Europe, and he did it in the US. To me, there's no question.
     
  48. racquetfreak

    racquetfreak Semi-Pro

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    silly rabbits - nadal is goat du jour - tennis really is different form >20 yrs ago and you can't (even if you could) take all these players in their prime and match them up against each other because of the lifetime of advanced training of today's players. ferrer probably would clean borg's clock. one canly objectively compare players against their contemporaries.
     
  49. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Ferrer would probably "clean Borg's clock"? Equalized for technology, I disagree strongly. Ferrer is perhaps right up there among the best clay courters aroudnt today though. Would Borg and Ferrer both be using wood frames or all modern equipment? It's got to be one or the other. Then, we can discuss that hypo matchup. How do you see Ferrer beating Borg badly under either scenario? I've seen both play plenty, and would say Borg beats Ferrer most every time, much the same way he handled Vilas and many others.
     
  50. ksbh

    ksbh Banned

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    Hood ... a case could be made for either of them being clay GOAT but any particular reason(s) you rate Borg over Nadal? If youve already written about it, I'd apprecaite it if you could point to the post no or at least page number. There are 23 pages!

     

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