cleanest tennis matches

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by BTURNER, Jun 13, 2009.

  1. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Nominees for Fewest errors compared to winners on both sides, fewest DF compared to aces service winners and highest first serve percentages etc.

    The one I heard about was the 87 semi Navratilova vs Evert. Certainly the best played by both of their rivalry per the numbers. Have it on DVD the stats on the first two stats were incredibly clean. Can't remember the exact stats on hand but there was a cumulative both player total ratio of almost 3-1 winners to errors with both over 75% average first serves. Trust me play did not deteriorate much in the third set either.
     
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  2. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    Verdasco Nadal 09 Aus Open Semi.... amazingly clean match is what made it so spectacular to watch
     
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  3. leonidas1982

    leonidas1982 Hall of Fame

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    99 Wimbledon final
     
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  4. suwanee4712

    suwanee4712 Professional

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    I don't have the service percentages, aces, DF's and such. But Martina's 1986 Wimbledon 7-6, 6-3 (one break) win over Mandlikova was extremely high quality. If my memory serves me correctly, they combined for over 50 winners and less than 10 unforced errors. Mandlikova lost the first set in a tiebreak and only committed ONE unforced error.
     
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  5. nfor304

    nfor304 Banned

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    1998 Usopen final Rafter hit less that 10 unforced errors while serve volleying. Pretty impressive
     
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  6. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    Missed passing shots are rarely counted as unforced errors, so some stats involving S&V players are a bit misleading. When both players are constantly S&Ving, chip & charging - as with rafter-philippoussis '98 or martina-madlikova '86 - there aren't really many opportunities to make an UE.

    And statisticians vary from tournament to tournament, so its really hard to compare. Also some stats, like service winners, didn't used to be counted in the total winner counts, like they are today.

    taking all that into account, this was the best winner to error ratio I've seen:

    Kuerten-Mirnyi '01 USO 3rd Round(from the official website)

    Kuerten: 103 winners, 13 unforced errors
    Mirnyi: 71 winners, 25 unforced errors

    others:

    Sampras-Rafter '01 USO

    Sampras: 60 winners, 14 unforced

    Rafter: 45 winners, 19 unforced
     
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  7. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    1997 Grand Slam Cup F
    Sampras - 60 winners, 7 unforced errors
    Rafter - 38 winners, 12 unforced errors

    Krosero or Moose, do either of you know what Becker's (winner/unf. err) was from the 1995 Wimbledon F?? Coupled with Sampras' 68 winner, 7 unfrced error performance it should make the list.

    While we're at it didn't McEnroe go something like 33 winners, 2-4 unforced errors in the '84 Wimbledon final?? Do either of you have Connors' final #'s??
     
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  8. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Rafter finished with 39 winners and 5 unforced errors, but Philppoussis 34 winners and 29 unforced errors, don't help his if we're counting both players. This from CNN/SI.
     
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  9. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    from NBC:

    as far as womens matches go, here is a thread on the '88 W Final

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=172622
     
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  10. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Those stats are from SkySports, but this is one of those cases where the numbers were inflated well beyond the clean winners.

    By my count Sampras had 40 clean winners/aces, Rafter 19. In addition I gave each of them 5 service winners (judgment calls), still leaving them well below the official totals.

    Not if we're looking at both players, since Becker made 15 double-faults (and 7 other UE's by Moose's count). Still haven't found Becker's official numbers.
     
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  11. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    More on that match:

    The Independent (UK):

    New York Times:

     
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  12. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    These were the stats NBC gave after the 1st set:

    Martina - 74% 1st Serve, 18 winners, 4 unforced
    Hana - 63%, 21 winners, 2 unforced

    I wonder what the numbers were like in the '85 USO final between these 2.

    krosero, have you come across any womens matches in recent years that had high published winner counts?

    I see Serena had 44 winners in last year's 2 set USO final. And Venus had 60 vs Jankovic at the '07 USO. I would think they got high numbers vs Hingis as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2009
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  13. rod99

    rod99 Professional

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    the stats regarding unforced errors are greatly skewed in some of the matches where both players are coming to net (esp on a fast court). if you've got 2 serve/volleyers then pretty much all errors are considered "forced" (unless there is an easy volley or overhead miss). a passing shot will not be considered an unforced error. so while the stats may say that a player only had 7 unforced errors for the match, it wasn't necessarily a cleanly played match. a good example of this is the sampras/rafter gs cup match referenced above.
     
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  14. Drop Shot 11

    Drop Shot 11 Rookie

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    Roddick

    vs.

    El Anouyi
     
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  15. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Haven't really looked, the only one that comes to mind was the one I did, Serena's final at the 2007 AO (28 winners).
     
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  16. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    According to wimbledon's website, Ivanovic had 72 winners in her 2nd round win over Dechy last year(it was a long match though, 67, 76, 10-8)
     
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  17. Mansewerz

    Mansewerz Legend

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    Anyone have stats for AO 2005, Federer v.s Safin. HQ match right there!
     
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  18. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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  19. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

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    When Serena and Venus play people like Hingis and Jankovic, Serena and Venus always have a ton of winners but a ton of unforced errors as well. Hingis and Janovic have very few winners and low number of unforced errors as well. It is a never a case with anyone hitting alot of winners combined with very few unforced errors, other than maybe Serena herself a couple times Serena played Hingis (2001 U.S Open semis and 2002 Miami quarters perhaps). That is really almost without exception, other than on clay Jankovic's winner count also rises significantly when she plays Venus compared to their matches on other surfaces.
     
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  20. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    I know when I posted this thread, I sure did not view a count of winners as the criteria for a clean match. The error stat is just as vital. It is the ratio that matters. I mean the total on both sides of the net.
     
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  21. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I know, I was just curious what women have had the highest winner counts. In recent years men have had some ridiculous counts(Kuerten, Gasquet) so it would seem likely that some women, esp the sisters, have as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2009
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  22. Federer's cat

    Federer's cat Banned

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    US Open '08 Serena Williams vs. Jelena Jankovic, one of the greatest women's matches I ever saw. Really cleans hitting, it's a shame it didn't go into 3 sets (Jankovic has about 2-3 set points too).
     
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  23. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    I don't see any winner stats during the NBC feed of this match. All they have are unforced errors & serve %'s after 2 sets(12 for Martina, 8 for Evert)

    After 2 sets of the '85 W Final, they have Chris at 26 winners, 8 unforced & Martina at 33 winners, 21 unforced.
     
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  24. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    I rember the offered them Now I have to look again. They never gave the final numbers on winner/error ratios at the end. What they gave was a total winner and error number for BOTH players at the end of the first game of the third. If you got the match, and got nothing else to do....Moose ol buddy....
     
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  25. Moose Malloy

    Moose Malloy Legend

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    That is the graphic I was referring to. No winners were given, just errors & serve %'s.
     
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  26. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    There was an earlier graphic at 4-5 in the second: Navratilova 32 winners and 10 ue, Evert 30 winners and 8 ue.
     
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  27. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    THATS THE ONE! Sadly I never got final total. I tried to do one of your little tallys thereafter. I went crazy.
     
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  28. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Presuming you counted both winners and UE: I've never done this with UE because mixing in my own judgment calls with the judgments of another statistician somehow doesn't seem coherent. If we're not judging things the same way, then what would any final number mean?

    With winners I tend to think it's safer, if I'm confident that the official stats only include a few, obvious judgment calls -- like balls that are deflected off the opponent's racquet and are obviously unreturnable. Then I could count forward from a midmatch graphic and confidently keep track of any such judgment calls. But it's not always certain how NBC or any other source might be counting winners. If I know or suspect that they're making very generous judgment calls on winners, then I don't even try to complete their midmatch stats. I just get my own count from start to finish (the only really safe way of counting).
     
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  29. Borgforever

    Borgforever Hall of Fame

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    I agree krosero -- the safest IMO is total errors and winners (and then the array of the "usual suspects" such as 1st serve percentage, point won 1st/2nd serve et al)...

    UE judgment-calls seem to be paper-thin ice IMO...
     
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  30. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    In case I am being to subtle, any chance one of you fine statistician type gentlemen can do a breakdown on this match if you have the DVD? I have a will that is due for an overhaul, and not enough relatives to divide up my multi-million dollar fortune...I haven't seen any matches of Evert/Navratilova get one in awhile and I think this one is better played than either the RG finals or even the Us OPEN 84. It's a great candidate.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2009
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  31. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    I've had it on my list for a while, might as well do it now. Look for it in the next weeks.
     
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