Clijsters is back and the WS cakewalk in OVER!!!

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by GameSampras, Mar 26, 2009.

  1. GameSampras

    GameSampras Banned

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    Clijsters is back and the WS cakewalk is OVER!!!

    Alright.. Finally someone to challenge these two. Hope Kim can make it back to top form and destroy the two part time sisters especially Serena who has been part time still destroying full time Russian headcase chokers and the tainted number 1 clowns like Jelena and Ana..

    She says her "hunger" is back. To be interpreted as, "Damn this field is weak, I think I can grab some slams."
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2009
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  2. mentalcase

    mentalcase Semi-Pro

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    lol
    I think she will last a year on tour then retire cause she misses her family.
     
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  3. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Kim was never that strong in the mental department. I don't see her being a threat to the Williams Sisters at all. Even part time.

    Do you know their head to heads? I tried to get it off the WTA site, but it wouldn't work.
     
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  4. kungfusmkim

    kungfusmkim Professional

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    Serena leads 7-1
    Venus leads 6-4
     
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  5. kungfusmkim

    kungfusmkim Professional

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    I have to agree i dont think they were really never big threats to the sisters. If she was, how come she didnt meet them in the semis or the earlier of 2007 Wimbledon and Australian open?
     
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  6. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

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    Clijsters wasn't a challenge for the WS when she was around before. I don't see how she's going to challenge them after being off the tour for however long. Wake me up when Henin comes back.
     
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  7. kungfusmkim

    kungfusmkim Professional

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    ^^ agreeed. Serena hasn't played clijsters since 2003 and Venus hasn't played her since 2005.
     
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  8. TheTruth

    TheTruth G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks!......
     
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  9. S H O W S T O P P E R !

    S H O W S T O P P E R ! Hall of Fame

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    What rank will she come back as?
     
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  10. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    She hardly played them since 2003 (and I think Venus lost to Kim both times they played in 2005) and they are so much worse than they were then. If she can get back to her old form she would do much better vs them than she did in 2002-2003 when they were at their peak. They are not even close to that now.
     
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  11. kungfusmkim

    kungfusmkim Professional

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    May i ask what made you think they are worse than then? 2005 was a horrible year for both the sisters. They just came back from injuries. Serena played the Australian and got injured and came back in time for the USO. Venus was ranked pretty low and she was rusty. How she was rusty against davenport in the finals and Sharapova in the semis? They play soo much better now than then.

    + 2005 was when kim was in her prime. and she managed to win only 2005 uso. That versus, the William sister rusty and still being able to clinch the title in 2005?
     
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  12. split-step

    split-step Professional

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    Kim may push Serena but Serena will almost always win that matchup.

    With Venus, she could probably reverse their head to head but Kim would have to be playing at her 'summer of 2005' level (her best season)
     
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  13. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    I didnt say they were worse than 2005, I said they were alot worse than 2002-2003 which is the last time they were beating Kim regularly (as I said they hardly played since then AFAIK except Kim beating Venus twice in 2005). Venus is about the same now as 2005, awesome at Wimbledon, pretty good at the U.S Open and a few other events, non existant elsewhere. Serena yes i better than 2005 but she didnt play Kim that year anyway.

    Serena is way of of shape now and wouldnt be winning as much as she does not without such a weak field, and without so many players choking leads away vs her. Henin proved Serena's vurnerability to good competition in her current shape in 2007 when she beat Serena in all 3 slams she played in on 3 different surfaces. Kim is not as great a player as Justine, but she is still better than whats left for an out of shape Serena to face with Justine gone. If Kuznetsova would have beaten Serena without choking, and Azarenka probably would have beaten her without getting kill, than Kim definitely has a shot to beat her often now in her 2003-2005 form.

    As for Venus, Venus only cares about Wimbledon and a few random other tournaments now. On slow surfaces she does squat now so it is almost as if she isnt there, so at the very least she presents no obstacle there at this point, and Wimbledon is the last slam Kim would ever win anyway.
     
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  14. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Serena and Venus from 05-06 were so off form and involved in the media. Venus now might not be playing so much better but Serena is definitely playing a lot better she has been to the past 3 slam finals. Kim was never a threat to Serena, Henin was Serena's threat and Henin was never a threat to Venus Cljisters was slightly. So really both need to come back to make the field decent but I doubt that this will cause any stir amongst the top of the rankings. Clijsters has to actually get into top form..I think she can do it but I don't see her winning tons of slams she might steal 1 or 2 but overall I think she will be added to the list of people Serena Williams beats in slams.
     
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  15. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Kim was not a major threat to Serena in 2003 when Serena was at her peak. It does not matter how Serena compares to 2005-2006 where she never played Kim and had far worse results than Kim overall anyway, what matters is she is way below what she was in 2002-2003. Venus was 1-2 vs Kim in 2005, but Venus is only about the same as 2005. Yes Serena is better but that doesnt matter, what matters is how she compares to 2002-2003 as far as any barometer of playing Kim.

    Even here you are not totally correct as Kim beat Serena in the year end Championships final in 2002 and choked a huge lead vs her in the Australian Open semis. Maybe with some time of the tour for perspective her choking tendencies might not be as prominent as they were.

    Venus has played only ONE match vs Justine since Justine won her first slam title in June 2003, and Venus lost that one and only match in straight sets. Again there is nothing to base this on as it was a prime Venus regularly beating a pre-prime Justine. Had Venus not always lost before meeting Justine, Justine probably would have won almost all their meetings since then as Justine was now the one in her prime unlike before, and Venus no longer in hers.

    You really are in love with the Williams sisters arent you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2009
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  16. Lionheart392

    Lionheart392 Professional

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    While I much prefer Venus over Henin, their H2H is definitely very misleading as grafselesfan pointed out. Almost all their matches were played during Venus's prime and before Henin's, except their last match which Henin won.
    And I'm very excited to see how Clijsters will perform during her comeback, but I don't think we should expect too much until we see her play. Actually in May I'm going to see her play at Wimbledon to celebrate the new roof, so it'll be interesting to watch her. If she is still in good form then I hope she goes easy on Steffi :D
     
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  17. MagPro

    MagPro Rookie

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    Keep dreaming haters!!!
     
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  18. kungfusmkim

    kungfusmkim Professional

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    Uh if you haven't noticed after 2005 Clijsters was no good. Serena just came back on the tour after a injury of ofcourse she wasnt fit. The same can be said for Henin. Henin lost in all grandslams but the french in 2006. But the following year she won 2 gs. Serena came in 2007 won the AO but lost everything else. She came in 2008 and made the finals of wimbledon and won USO. But this is where the difference is. She didn't plummet in 2009 after coming from a great season in 2008. Where as, Henin just crashed into a nose dive in 2008 after having the best season of her life. And about the Clijsters chances of getting back to the 2003-2005 level is never going to happen. She just had a child. A woman's body just changes after having a child. Horomonally, mentally, and such. It'll take alot more time for her to actually get to the 2003-2005 state. But by the time she gets to that state shes probably like 29.
     
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  19. kungfusmkim

    kungfusmkim Professional

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    Yeah but the matches that henin won in 2007 was during her prime.
     
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  20. Tennis360

    Tennis360 Semi-Pro

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    Glad she'll be back....I hope Henin comes out of retirement too - I miss her game...
     
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  21. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    I had a feeling Kim would be back - watch Henin follow suit after HER mental break is over with.
     
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  22. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    One can only hope.
     
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  23. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    I wouldn't say the cakewalk is over at this point. Clijsters was not ever a huge threat on grass and that won't be any different now. As for the whole Clijsters/Serena thing its impossible to really tell what will happen now. All of their previous matches occured during Serena's peak level of Fitness and ability, and while Clijsters was several times able to push Serena to 3 she was never able to close it out...most notably blowing a 5-1 lead in 3rd set of the 2003 Australian Open Semi's, which I would consider one of the worst if not the worst choke of her career.

    Now its hard to say but, at least now I would give the advantage to Serena, maybe if Clijsters really shows she wants to do the tour regularly again the balance might shift in her favor, but I doubt we'll see it happening as soon as she starts playing again.
     
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  24. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Well one surface Kim could dominate in her old form on is clay, which the Williams arent big forces on anymore anyway. Hard courts would be more interesting to see. I agree the Williams are superior on grass but I dont agree Kim wasnt a threat there. She did make the semis twice after all.
     
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  25. LOOSeDAWG

    LOOSeDAWG Banned

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    Venus Williams is better than Clijsters but I think Clijsters matches up very well with Serena and could beat her, but there will be Slams whereby the Williams Sisters are upset and Clijsters will be able to take care of the remaining challengers, certainly take care of Jankovic.
     
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  26. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    Venus at this point is absolutely zero factor at either the Australian Open or French Open, so if Kim gets back to being a major contender she doesnt even have to think about her at either of those events. Serena is so out of shape and moving so poorly that it would help Kim a great deal to beat her. If much weaker players than Kim like Kuznetsova and Azarenka are having such great chances to beat Serena, than Kim definitely will.
     
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  27. LOOSeDAWG

    LOOSeDAWG Banned

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    Clijsters would beat Serena but not Venus, Venus covers the court better than Clijsters whereas Serena would be run off the court.
     
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  28. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    if the part-time sisters decide to dedicate themselves 100%...they will probably destroy the field including clijsters.

    It's good though that kim is back...maybe she misses lleyton.
     
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  29. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    If Clijsters starts winning slams, there's a probability that Justine might do a comeback as well. There can only be ONE belgian!
     
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  30. navratilovafan

    navratilovafan Banned

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    and what reason do you have to believe this will happen when it hasnt for many years now.
     
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  31. Leublu tennis

    Leublu tennis Legend

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    Same as when she retired: #1. They hold the rank for retired players.
     
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  32. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    your not serious are you?
     
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  33. Warriorroger

    Warriorroger Hall of Fame

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    You use big words for a good player not a great player. I don't like the sisters very much, but they are great players. As for Jelena and Ana, the system is tainted not their place in the rankings.

    I hope Steffi can still play great tennis against Kim.
     
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  34. cucio

    cucio Legend

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    In fact Steffi looks every day at those racquets hanging at her trophy room, feels the itch in her hand and thinks: "kids are all grown, why the heck not...?"
     
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  35. Puma

    Puma Rookie

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    This will be interesting to see what happens. I am not confident Clisters will do any damage to the sisters. Like someone said, Clisters is a good player and the sisters are great players. However, I do think if she is in shape and ready to play she can separate the pretenders from the real players.

    I am not sure if the part time arrangement of the sisters is a testament to how good the sisters are or how bad the competition is or both. Maybe Clisters can help to aswer this. Besides everyone love to watch her play.
     
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  36. Ian Stewart

    Ian Stewart Professional

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    This comeback is as nauseating as it is predictable. I give it six months.

    Go away Kim. You retired already.
     
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  37. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I think it's great that Clijsters is coming back.

    I wonder if this is the "better" way for a female player to have a child AND compete at a top level -- start out on tour fairly young (as most do), have some success, THEN stop and have a child, then return when you are still relatively young.

    This is quite a difference from having a baby at the end of your career like Davenport and trying to hang on for a few more years at a top level.

    Of course, I'm assuming a lot, including (1) the fact that no one knows when they are going to fall in love and want to have a child. It's not like a player can just say, okay I'm 23, time to have kid so I can be back in a few years. And, (2), there's no guarantee that even though a player is relatively young when they come back, that they can return to their former peak with a child in tow, even if they have the money and personal assistance (relatives, nannies) for the child.
     
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  38. LOOSeDAWG

    LOOSeDAWG Banned

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    Venus and Serena have given 100%, they are just smarter than the rest of the world, they know they'd constantly have wrist tendinitis if they played the WTA schedule, and they would have retired young like all the other players of their generation.
     
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  39. tahiti

    tahiti Professional

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    I find the Williams sisters indeed smart in the way they pop in and out of the tour, preventing injuries and yet still slaying the rest of the field. Don't think Kim will do the same, mais je dis bonne chance :)
     
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  40. Chi

    Chi New User

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    ...me too! The tennis world misses that backhand... :twisted:

    Though its great to hear Kim Clijsters is coming back - good luck to her. It can only be good for the WTA tour in my opinion.
     
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  41. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    that why I said IF. Nowhere have I indicated that they WILL!
     
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  42. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    I really think they could've won more. Like Steffi Graf said...the williams' never reached their potential.
     
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  43. LOOSeDAWG

    LOOSeDAWG Banned

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    Graf probably doesn't even know they get tendinitis.
     
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  44. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    Why should it matter if Serena is playing like 02-03? What makes you think that Serena is going to be affected by Kim now? Kim hasn't played in a long time we don't even know if she is going to be in top form. I don't see Kim doing much damage to Serena anywhere outside of maybe clay.

    True point, but no offense to Justine in top form against Venus in top form I am giving Venus the edge on hardcourts and grass. I don't think Henin would have regulary beat up on Venus on hardcourts and she would not have been able to do damage on grass. Venus has a lot of talent.

    Oh I really do like the Williams Sister I must admit I am a bit bias but I also like Henin a lot too she has some of the best shot making abilities ever. I just wish they would be more dedicated to the sport as it really needs them. Williams, Henin, Cljisters and Sharpova were supposed to be this generation's top and they either get injured, disappear, or retire.
     
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  45. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

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    It matters since you are basing Kim's chances vs Serena based on how she did vs her in 2002-2003. Serena is not even close to the same player she was in 2002-2003 due to fitness, commitment, weight, and who knows what other issues. Thus if Kim could return to her 2003-2005 form, which is not a certainty of course, she would do much better vs Serena than she did then. Much lesser players than Kim like Kuznetsova and Azarenka are playing Serena in slam matches they really should have beaten her recently, so why on earth wouldnt Kim have a great shot now if she returned to her former form.

    Also Kim was only really in her prime 3 of those matches. Basically her prime started at the year end Championships in 2002. In those 3 matches she beat Serena easily in the year end Championships final. Totally should have beaten her in the Australian Open semis and had one of the most colassal chokes of all time. Then Serena's turn to have an easy win in Miami. So based on that prime Kim was not an easy opponent for even the vastly superior to today prime and fit Serena, once Kim reached her prime. That perspective is skewed by so many 2002-earlier matches in their head to head when Kim wasnt the same player yet as 2003-2005 either.

    Sorry but from 2004-2007 Justine would have won almost any match between her and Venus except on grass. Justine has simply been the better player ever since the start of 2004 onwards at the very least. The 2007 U.S Open was probably the best non grass court tennis Venus has played since the 2003 Australian Open and it still wasnt enough to even get a set off of Justine. If you are talking about prime Venus vs prime Justine than that might well be different, but Venus's prime has been long over awhile now. Maybe you are referring to your guess if they were in their hypothetical primes together, in which case I could believe your perspective. Otherwise no.

    Would you like some examples of when they potentially would have met? The Olympics in 2004 Venus was slated to meet Henin in the quarters but couldnt even get a set off an out of shape past her prime (except for last hurrah 2005 year) Pierce who herself then was easily beaten by Justine next round. Would Venus have ever won that match? Then Australian Open 2006 they were slated to meet in the 4th round. Venus lost to some player I cant even remember the name of, and Justine waltzed to the semis, and gutted her way past Sharapova to the final. Again what reason is there to think Venus would have ever had a shot if they played here. All the examples I can think of when they were in the same part of the draw Venus couldnt even reach Justine since she lost to a much easier opponent than Justine.

    I bet if Serena had barely played Justine that whole time too you would also have assumed Serena would have regularly beaten her outside of clay still. However when Justine and Serena played pretty often again in 2007 it was proven that was far from the case, and Serena is better than Venus anywhere except grass as well. Justine from 2004-2007 won over twice as much as anybody else including the sisters, she was by far the best player in the world overall combining those four years.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2009
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  46. DMan

    DMan Professional

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    Hunger for what? Birthing more babies?!

    You are kidding yourself if you think Clijsters will make an impression on the WTA elite, or challenge the Williams sisters!

    If you think the field is weak now, then what was it like when Clijsters was playing? Capriati practically handed the '01 French Open final, and Kim still found a way to lose. Kim was considered the better player when she reached her 2nd French final in 03 and got clobbered by Justine. She had a cakewalk to the US Open final (no Williams sisters) and was the heavy favorite against Henin. Again Kim choked. Kim won her only major beating..........drum roll please..........Mary Pierce!

    Sveta will have company in the major league choke-a-holic department with Kim's return!
     
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  47. thalivest

    thalivest Banned

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    Hardly anything you say makes sense. Kim favored over Justine on clay in a French Open final, ROTFL!! Dont even know where to start there. Also based on what is Kim a heavy favorite vs Justine anywhere, even at the U.S Open, when Justine has owned her since 2003. Kim beat Venus, Sharapova, and Pierce to win the U.S Open, not just Mary Pierce. Capriati was at her career peak in 2001, Kim wasnt even close to hers. The fact they were so evenly matched then just shows Kim was the better player, she simply didnt have the lucky horseshoe wedged up her butt that let Capriati, the weakest 3 time slam winner ever, somehow win 3 career slams. Also in your bizarre potrayal that Kim is even considered superior to Justine and is somehow regularly expected to beat her, than she would have no problem with the sisters of today considering Justine was owning them in 2007 when she was last playing serious tennis before retiring.

    The field when Kim played had Venus and Serena much better than they are now, Davenport, Capriati, Clijsters herself, Henin, Mauresmo, Hingis. Now it has a grossly fat Serena, a hibernate all year except Wimbledon Venus, Maria on the shelf maybe for good with chronic shoulder, and a bunch of mediocre Russians and Serbs who Clijsters is something like 49-2 head to head against.

    Keep in mind people this is the same individual that thinks 1 time French Open winner Goolagong is a better clay courter than 5 time French Open winner Court. Dont be surprised.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2009
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  48. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    i don't know if i am under-estimating cljisters but i think she has a shot at reaching the top ten but i don't think she could ever become number 1 again.
     
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  49. Ocean Drive

    Ocean Drive Hall of Fame

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    Retired when in her peak years, age wise, stupid decision, same with Henin.
     
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  50. egn

    egn Hall of Fame

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    If she gets there yes but I don't see her getting there which is why I don't really feel it matters if Serena is 2002-2003 because I don't see Cljisters getting back to top form which was 2003..

    You want to put Kim in 2005 form it is honestly quite level with Serena of last year or this year but 2003 was well Kim's best year and she got whipped by Serena's best so I don't see Kim playing today because realistically what are the odds of her playing like 03 or 05 standing a chance against Serena..But this is then all speculation. We can't really determine how they would play against each other now because we are still assuming Kim gets back into top form.




    I think Justine would have come out regular victor winning 66 percent but I still think Venus could take hard court matches away I don't feel it would have been romps.


    Oh yea to foil your theory out of shape Serena in 2007-2008 lead their hardcourt head to head 2-1...She came back from a bagel set to win that Miami finals in 2007. By 2008 honestly Serena was better than Henin and I feel Henin retiring actually changed things. She demolished Henin in Miami in 2008 6-2, 6-0. Henin only lead 3-2 from 2007-2008 when Serena was far out of shape and as you said "way past her prime" Unless Henin 2008 does not count because she is out of prime because Serena 2008 you said is out of prime also so that should be a relatively fair match up. Honestly I think I can say if Serena put more effort into 2007 I think that head to head would swing in her favor but then it is my opinion.
     
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