Comparison of Federer Djokovic Nadal racquets.

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by kiteboard, Sep 17, 2011.

  1. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG] fed, joker, nadal framesComparison of Federer Djokovic Nadal racquets.
    Federer: 90 sq. in.

    Joker: 98 sq. in.

    Nadal: 100 sq in.

    Total mass:
    Federer: 357g-364 depending on surface, foe, etc.

    Joker: 361g according to Greg Raven.

    Nadal: 334-336g according to Greg Raven.

    Swing wt.:
    Federer: 338g according to Greg Raven but I think it's more like 355g with all that lead under the grommets.


    Joker: 371

    Nadal: 355 according to Greg Raven.

    RA:

    Federer: 65

    Joker: 51 according to Greg Raven but I think it's more like 63-65.

    Nadal: 65 with the apd original, the one he uses.

    Lay up:

    Federer: similar to stock, with higher quality material. ( He used to have a more open drill pattern with the ncode, at 9 crosses rather than 10 in sweet spot area, but has the same pattern as stock now.)

    Joker: custom, head lay up no one can buy.

    Nadal: original apd lay up with lead under the grommet at 12 and under the butt.

    Tension:

    Federer: 48.5/45.7lbs vs team/alu

    Joker: 61/59lbs vs team/alu

    Nadal: used to use duralast for ten years, now uses RPM at 54/52lbs.

    Feel of the sticks:

    Federer: like a muted stone, with high power in the small sweet spot and iffy outside of it.

    Joker: depends on if his RA is 51 or 65 like the h22 he used to use. Rock like power and control and depth off shots.


    Nadal: stiff, light, head heavy, with a soft thud on the RPM, lots of spin, tough to serve and get power flat wise.

    Grip size:



    Federer: L3 with over grip

    Joker: L4 with two over grips

    Nadal: L2 with over grip.

    Set up for their game:


    Federer: demanding sweet spot with lots of power, smaller head size makes his 16 x 19 more like an 18 x 20.

    Joker: 18 x 20, Perfect for his game, flat out power, great control, higher tension yet softer on the cross for more snap back control, more lead than the others on the inside of the frame, going down to below the last cross by about an inch or so.


    Nadal: Total spin set up, 16 x 19 with a spin string, small grip for more torque and quicker rotation, stiff RA for power, head heavy for spin.

    Moment of inertia for each:

    20.33 for Nadal
    20.65 for Fed
    21 for Joker, giving him more plow through, but tougher to get moving, more depth, but more risk of going long by an inch.


    Similarities: I think all three are at an RA of about 65, including Joker, who is listed at 51. I think all three sw are close, except joker is a little higher, with more lead than the others. So if all three are at 65 Ra, and all three are sw at 355g-371, that should tell us something. A high sw, and a high RA, allow for more power/plow through on shots. Fed's lower tension on a smaller head size gives the same snap back as Joker at 61/59lbs. Rafa has more snap back at 54/52lbs, in a 100 sq. in. apd frame, which would provide more spin. The lower snap back of Fed and Joker, in a tighter pattern, give them more depth/flatter trajectory and deeper landing shots than Rafa given the same force vectors applied to the bed. The vs team/alu combo, also gives more power than the rpm, which is a spin string, not a power string, and feels soft and thud like, not crisp and powerful as vs/alu feels, with RPMs hexagonal shape. Fed and Joker have power flat type set ups, and Rafa is all spin. But we already knew that by watching their games! Also the RA increases after the frames are strung, so their strung RAs are really about 2-3 points higher at 67-68 RA. That's a lot of pop for big hitters to control. Notice Murray at about 60-63 RA with his pt57A 16 x 19 alu/vs combo, strung at 62/61lbs, lighter mass at 347g, (he was at 364g but hurt his wrist) and his less powerful shots, with his more flexible frame and less powerful hybrid set up, as gut as cross is far less powerful than gut as main. (Hey, Murray, add the lead back on, switch the vs to the mains, and get a frame with an RA of 65, and talk to me about how much you like it. If you want to run with the big boys, you have to have the plow through, and they beat you up when it counts, as too many of your shots have not enough on them to counter the greater plow through of the stiffer RA, and gut as main.) Your equipment is holding you back and there is no way you are ever going to win a slam that way. Cut out the whining and the negativity, it only helps your opponents feel calmer and more sure about winning. So we will see if he has the heart to listen.
    _____[​IMG] fed lead tape
    [​IMG] joker lead tape_____________
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
    #1
  2. samster

    samster Legend

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    Awesome. Thanks!
     
    #2
  3. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I thought Djokovic's racquet is 95 sq. in. because it's based on the LM Radical MP mold (which is really 95 sq. in. and not 98 sq. in. as marketed)?
     
    #3
  4. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Oh, BTW,

    1. Federer's racquet has the same drill pattern as the retail K90/BLX90. The drill pattern is more widely spaced (not tighter) at the PWS than the retail PS Tour 90/nCode 90.

    2. Nadal uses a L2 (4 1/4) grip size, not L3.
     
    #4
  5. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Hard to believe that rafa uses a hh racket, hh is better for serving and hard flat shots. Not good for fast racket speed and top spin.
     
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  6. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Grinders often like a hh stick, for more whip on their fh.
     
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  7. Fed Kennedy

    Fed Kennedy Hall of Fame

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    Good thread, but have you ever played with a tour 90? It is nothing like an 18x20. Huge bite from the mega open pattern. Esp. at 48 lbs
     
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  8. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    You are saying that hh gives more whip? It is the complete opposite, hh gives less whip while obviously hl makes it easier for high racket head speed and whip.
     
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  9. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    More whip due to more mass at the 12 oclock position enables more whiplash in a vicious shot, like Nadal's.
     
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  10. Jules

    Jules Rookie

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    +1
    k six.one tour 90 has far more spin than e.g. Head Prestige MP.
     
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  11. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Your whole analysis falls apart if Djoko's RA does not turn out to be 65. If Greg Raven measured 51, what make you think otherwise? Any indirect evidence?

    Also, 355 to 370 is a huge range when it comes to SW (whose unit is not grams, BTW).

    I would say that the first spec is to have a strung weight greater than 12 oz. The balance used to more head-light in previous eras of graphite, but today's favored setup seems to be 4 or 6 points HL for more plowthru.
     
    #11
  12. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Sorry if I missed something, but where does this "higher quality crystals" info come from?
     
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  13. Xizel

    Xizel Professional

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    What he's saying is actually correct. If you understand racquet polarization, you'll understand why mass at 12 (and therefore HH) is better for more spin and whip.
     
    #13
  14. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    what's the deal with the uneven amounts of lead on Fed's racquets in the pictures?
     
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  15. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^To balance out each racquet to the same spec's - likely they come out of the factory with different weights and balances.

    cheers
     
    #15
  16. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    Carlos Moya, another spanish clay courter, used a sub 11 oz racket that was very HH to generate loads of topspin. I always thought that was funny because Moya used to wear the sleeveless shirts with the big biceps and he was swinging a very light racket. I think his SW was quite high though due to the HH customization.
     
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  17. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Guess who else is from Mallorca? Guess who mentored Nadal as a child? Guess who beat Moya when he was 14yrs. old? Guess which string Moya used to use? I think it's strange that a small island, with 567,000 people on it, would produce two #1 players. (moya was #1 for a week or so.)
     
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  18. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    2" different lead on frame to frame, side to side, is a lot of lead to explain factory differences in swing wt. I think some are set up head heavier for a reason, not that they all are matched to swing wt.[​IMG] fed lead tape. That's a lot of weight, 4" of lead on each side, 8" total, is about 7grams heavier, and Fed's frames are ranged from 357g-364g on purpose. It's not to balance out the specs, it's to give more plow through on some frames for serving/vs. returning. He switches them up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
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  19. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    My only evidence is empiric. I can't see the power/plow through on a 51RA frame he gets. I've hit with frames that soft, and there is no power there at all.
     
    #19
  20. zapvor

    zapvor Legend

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    i wonder how obsessed fed and co. is with their sticks
     
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  21. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    Hes a pro and you are not, ever thought about that?.
    Im not a pro but I get lots of power from flexy frames, right now Im using a stick with RA of 49. So even if his frame is listed as 51 RA you can tell its not because you would have zero power with it, very logical:rolleyes:
     
    #21
  22. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    10 fails...
     
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  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Why such a rude reply?
    Do you guys have a history?
    It's just a discussion on what folks may know about pro rackets. We all realize there are secrets we will never likely know.
     
    #23
  24. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    Excellent info, Kiteboard... thanks.
     
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  25. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    It's easy to destroy and criticize, and hard to create and improve. Typing Fail means nothing, other than a low vocabulary and an inability to add, as he says 10 fails, yet types 4. Just another keyboard jerk on the forum with nothing to add, and lots to subtract. Here is the h22 joker used to use with an RA of 65: http://suppawat.multiply.com/reviews/item/86

    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=djok...8&tbnw=220&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0 Fed frames are made with higher quality control, just as h22s are made in a diffferent room in China than stock kblades. Similar material, with higher quality control. The physical space inbetween the strings with a 90 sq. in. frame at 16 x19, is almost the same as a 98 sq. in. frame at 18 x 20, with a 10% smaller head size, the spaces are smaller, and grab the ball similarly as an 18 x20 in a 98in. frame. As for the RA, I am only guessing, due to the power joker has displayed, not possible with such a flexible frame in my experience.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
    #25
  26. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    Its just a fact that you post wrong info, I pointed out your fails so you have a chance to correct them and not make a fool out of yourself. Why make a post full of wrong info?, thats exactly why ppl get confused on the internet - ppl posting BS all the time and says "I think it is like this".
    You ever seen ppl typing "10 characters", in this case I think "10 fails" is more suitable.
    In fact I know you are wrong and ppl should know that, if noone made that clear we would see ppl repost your fantasy specs all over the board. I can say that Fed is using a big bubba with 6.1 tour pj because theres no way he can get that power from a 90", but that doesnt make it correct does it?.
    A guy your age should know better than this, its pure speculations and not facts. But I guess we should take your words for it because you "think" its like that:rolleyes:.
     
    #26
  27. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Look at the pics of joker's h22s, and tell me who is failed. Just another fool on the forum. I guess you are going to tell me Fed's frames are the same quality control as yours?
     
    #27
  28. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    Exactly! and if you dont know for sure, then dont make fantasy posts. It would make it much easier for ppl to find the info needed using the search function. Ppl on the board might take kiteboard´s word for it, in this case they shouldnt.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
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  29. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Have you played with an h22? NO. Have you hit with a pt57A? No. Do you have vs team mains? No. Fool!
     
    #29
  30. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    since you owned several H22´s according to yourself, you should be able to tell the difference yourself. I held Novak´s frame myself several times but I guess my eyes played a trick on me then.
    Now you are talking QC, sure they are not but before you were talking about higher quality crystals, which one is it then?
     
    #30
  31. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    LOL no great master never:).
    The difference between you and I is that I only post facts on subjects like this, since I have been with both wilson and head I would think that I used both frames (with all kinds of setups) quite a bit actually.

    Come on guys lets give the old man a hand, you do know that he felt and did things that most ppl never will right, must be those magic pro stocks with vs team mains!!
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=5434113&postcount=26
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
    #31
  32. PED

    PED Legend

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    Actually, his stick is not HH, it has a balance of roughly 33.3cm (surface dependent) which makes it 3pts HL :)
     
    #32
  33. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Here is what joker had to say about his own head frame: “I had some ups and downs, and I was really even changing some things in the racket at the start of the year in the tournaments, which was a little bit frustrating me.

    “But I managed to find the good rhythm with the racket. It really takes time mentally to accept the change and it’s a big switch. I think it (the Head prototype) has more power. Maybe a little bit too much power in some moments.”


    Does that sound like an RA of 51 to you?
     
    #33
  34. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    So its not "higher quality crystals". And where do you have the info on higher quality control from?
     
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  35. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Gamma quarter inch leadtape is 1/4 gram pr inch, so that would be about 2 grams. Very likely for matching purposes. If otherwise, I believe the rackets would be organized more systematically. Just my 2 c.
    Also, I dont think anyone here has ever seen Federer change racket for serving/recieving.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
    #35
  36. Fed Kennedy

    Fed Kennedy Hall of Fame

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    This is just not true. The Fed frame has much bigger spaces in between the strings. His 90 is much more "open" than Jokers 98.
     
    #36
  37. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    From a top stringer, on the grand slam stringing team for Wilson. The quality rooms are different in China for the pros sticks, and they use higher quality material according to him. In one tourny he strung 175 frames, more than any other stringer there.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
    #37
  38. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Joker also said, "They made the frame the same.", re: his wilson h22 at an Ra of 65, and his new head frame. He also said he had to tinker with it to get it right on the stiffness.
     
    #38
  39. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Let's get out the cameras!
     
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  40. kiteboard

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    He changes every 8 games. I've weighed the tape and it weighs more than that on a digital scale, but that's with the tape backing on. I may have gotten a bad read.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
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  41. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Well Federers stringer says the racket is of the rack. But maybe he did not string 175 rackets in one tourney. Never heard of a "quality room". And you said "similar material, with higher quality control" a few posts back, confusing...
    Yes he changes with the balls. He doesn't mix it up for serving/recieving as you said.
    Yup, guess you got a bad read. And LOL at the tape backing making any serious difference, sorry.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
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  42. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Not talking about Nate. About a stringer in the grand slam rooms. He knows the truth about the quality control being higher for pro stock, and they use different rooms for that, according to him.
     
    #42
  43. CHOcobo

    CHOcobo Professional

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    got pics of their rackets side by side? i want to compare djoker next to rogers. i was at a retail store and held joker's racket that retail for 190. that so called 98 sq^2 in seems very very small. i don't know why but feels like as small has a 90. what ever it is it appears to be definitely smaller than my AG300 with 98.
     
    #43
  44. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    There are pics in the forum, comparing joker's frame to a stock, showing diff. such as grommets, drill pattern, etc. The frame they are passing off as his is not close. I have put up the comparison here to make a point. Should not be a shock to see that none of them are using the stock frames or stock materials, other than Nadal with the apd orig., but they are telling you folks out there it's a cortex! The conclusion I made still stands: Joker RA is not 51, it's way stiffer. Murray is too light and too flexible, with the wrong string set up alu/vs team not enough pop or plow through. Nadal is too light on total mass, and as a result, too many of his shots are short, same with Murray. Murray is not stiff enough with the pt57A, for pop. What's just as obvious is, neither guy will change, regardless of their own results on tape, and both will regret it down the line badly. The gen pop doesn't care either, that they are being lied to, fooled into buying frames that are not as advertised, which is false advertising. I would like to file a class action suit on behalf of all the people being falsely led into buying the lies. Any lawyers out there with me? Look at what happened to Nike, when she sued them in SF. They were forced to admit their lies, and began to offer the Tiger ball to the gen pop. Head is the worst, with no one using what is advertised. Who cares about Prince, as they are going under anyway. Wilson quality control sucks outside the Fed room. Does no one care at all?
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
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  45. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    "The Fed room"? Sorry but I will still believe that Federers stick is basically a stock K90 with a few grams of lead tape under the bumper and a custom grip. So no lawsuit on my part for that. However, with the advent of the BLX, its a bit more confusing...
    And no, it was me talking about Nate. You talked about an anonymous stringer who probably never handled Federers racket.
    But you are right about the quality control sucking in many brands. I just bought a BLX90 demo racket at my local store, and it weighs exactly the announced 339 grams unstrung. I wonder whether they make an effort to keep demo rackets on spec...
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011
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  46. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    Maybe demo frames come from "the Fed room" and are made of magic high quality crystals:)
    BTW is Fed staying at "the Fed room" when he visits the wilson factory to try out new amazing crystals?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
    #46
  47. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Actually Wilson copied the playing characteristics of the HEAD LM Radical MP for Nole's H22.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Then Djokovic signed with Wilson and:
    "People from Wilson company tried to make agreement with me for five years and they "catch me" now finally. I don't know the specification of our agreement, because we didn't ratify that still, but I know it's much better convention then I had with Head. I tried to play with 15-20 different models of Wilson and no one is conform to me. Then they made a copy of my Head racquet, and he is absolutely the same."
    http://www.protennisfan.com/2005/12/djokovic_signs_.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2011
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  48. xFullCourtTenniSx

    xFullCourtTenniSx Hall of Fame

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    If I gave you a racket like a stock n90 which is headlight and has most of it's weight centered lower on the frame, then gave you a custom weighted racket that had a majority of the weight at 12, some at 9+3 for stability, and some under the buttcap (so the racket won't feel like it'll fly out of your hand), and you had the technique to easily swing and accelerate both rackets through the ball, you would find the custom racket with weight at 12 would feel like it has more response on the ball and more whip THROUGH the contact. (of course, both rackets will be of equal static weight, and can even be of equal balance if you prefer, but you'll notice one feels significantly head heavier than the other)

    The thing with headlight rackets, that although they're easier to maneuver around (like on volleys), they don't really go through the ball as well unless they have some serious mass to the racket. The easiest way to cut down on static weight while alleviating this issue is simply to put the mass at 12 so the racket tip has more inertia through contact. You'll basically notice once you get the racket going, it basically does all the work for you. Whereas if I got any light+headlight racket (which there are plenty of), I can "whip" it all I want, but I'm basically doing all the work, so I have to put more effort into it myself in order to generate the same type of ball which basically is no longer a "whip" and more of an aggravated slap.


    On another note, isn't it common knowledge by now that Federer's sticks from Wilson are handpicked for better quality control? It could be a rumor but it's the most sensible statement if he's using a stock racket from Wilson of all companies... And often the most simply reasoning is how it really is... At least in the world of Sherlock Holmes...
     
    #48
  49. aimr75

    aimr75 Hall of Fame

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    great QC.. all different applications of lead

    [​IMG]
     
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  50. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    This thread just shows once again how clueless Kiteboard is on this matter, please move on to your next conspiracy theori now, thanks!.
     
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