confused w/ the term "MTM"

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by mr_fro2000, Sep 28, 2012.

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  1. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks Ash, nice to have some unbiased guys who know their stuff.Even though you
    don't always see things the same, you are pretty darned fair. I hope Limpin makes
    it back, because he was pretty good at being objective as well.
    Never thought a reasonable man would be such a stand out quality!
    thanks again
     
  2. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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  3. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I never really said much about her. suresh and others like to trot her out as an example at
    times for one thing or another and I've just said she isn't a poster girl for modern. I rarely watch
    the girls or find them to be great examples.
    I think you see that she has made quite a few changes in these vids
    compared to when she was coached by her husband.
    Did you see her coach in the second vid trying to get her to lift more and how he demo'd
    a more "up & across" example for her?
     
  4. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    from Wiki- the book on Li Na

    One of Li's biggest weaknesses is her inconsistency, as shown by her results. She has a tendency to hit a high number of unforced errors at any stage of a match, often on crucial points, preventing her from clinching victory in many close matches. She also lacks variety in her game, as her shots are usually hit hard and very flat and rarely with topspin or slice.


    How funny is that? Sounds like it's pretty common knowlege even though I'm not that up
    on the WTA players.
    Don't you think she hired the new coach to likely address the issues I raise??
    Really FrisFool, you need to stop trying to set me up to look good, lol.
     
  5. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    What is wrong with this particular Li Na forehand??????:confused:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Are you suggesting something is wrong or that a stroke can even be wrong?
    You think you can tell the important things from this perspective?
    What is your point?
    toly, you don't even know which way the spin will go, so how can you get the subtle
    things, but there are some clues in this pic.
    Her results ARE streaky and
    she is known for lots of UEs.
    You like her game....great.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  7. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Who cares about one stroke the point is she is a spotty player. I have watched her play and I think she is a good player and at times she is very good.

    I enjoy watching her she is a good competitor but just like mentioned above she plays a little to risky at times and if she is off just a little she usually loses because her margin for error is to small.

    The thing that I noticed is she hits the ball to flat without enough spin, that is why she is spotty. When on she can be very tough, but she needs more spin and net clearance to increase her consistency and wait for higher % opportunities to flatten her shots out.
     
  8. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Yes she's made quite a number of changes. Not sure when but it's a different fh than a few yrs ago. Her coach is good.
     
  9. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think it will be interesting and if the changes are more in the direction I suggest
    on here every day, will that change what the haters say? I don't think so.
    But it will happen, because the coach is good.
     
  10. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I ‘m asking you again and again, in what particular post I said something wrong about spin?:evil:
     
  11. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Yes, one stroke probably means nothing, that’s why mathematicians invented statistic. Here are statistical data of men’s forehand topspin.

    [​IMG]

    The most successful players are Peter Sampras and Andre Agassi, and they had mediocre topspin.
    On other hand, Caroline Wozniacki can generate a lot of topspin, but cannot hit flatter FH. This perhaps explains her inconsistency in WTA ranking.
    So, I think Li Na has the best FH for her game. If she adds topspin, her ranking may plummet to the bottom???
    The same I think can be said about Sharapova and Clijsters. :confused:
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  12. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    What do you even mean? What about the current tennis game and current champions? Federer, nadal, djoko? Massive top spin. Massive consistency. Massive game.
     
  13. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Li Na has a lot of topspin. Look at the vids I posted.
     
  14. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    5263, What characteristics of Li Na's strokes do you view as traditional? She displays a variety of finishes on her forehand follow through. She can finish up around her shoulder or around her hip, depending on what kind of shot she's hitting. Similar to a lot of tops guy on the ATP.

    I always considered her a poster child for the modern game. Is her extension and drive the one aspect of her stroke you perceive as being traditional?? All the top guys on the ATP tour have the same great extension.

    MTM fails again. MTM has as much connection to the modern tennis game as Scientology does to science.

    5263 thinks Li Na is spotty player with "traditional" groundstrokes. 5263 how many French Open Champions have you developed with your MTM groundstrokes? Too Funny.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  15. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    This is hilarious how about trying to get into this decade there toly. I have noticed that rafa nadal has only won 11 majors using the most top spin the game has ever seen, and fed is not far behind him in heavy spin.
     
  16. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    You are obviously right. There is nothing to argue about.

    I found new data in http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/01/forehand-speed-and-spin-rates-of-atp.html about both the ball speed and spin rates for the top ATP players on the forehand. That information is listed in table below.

    [​IMG]

    Unbelievable, Nadal and Roddick are the best in average FH ball speed and spin rate.:)
     
  17. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I'm surprised about roddick almost equal to nadal in that. Wow,...
     
  18. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I am having a very hard time believing that rafa is over 10 mph faster than fed on their average forehands, I would think it would be the opposite.
     
  19. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is all about the future. The 70 year old man who has never heard of topspin and signed up for lessons is going to beat Li Na and then young Filip, once he understands how to pull back on the ball at contact. It may not be possible by the laws of physics as we know it today, but this is about the future.
     
  20. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    You can't even get a quote of someone correct, lol, so how do you expect
    to get a more subtle take on things like modern vs traditional?
    First you might want to read up on what traditional instruction is, then get
    back to us.
     
  21. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Well the first thing you think an decent engineer would realize, is that avg is a pretty
    useless statistic in this discussion. lol.. I hope I don't have to even explain that
    to any actual tennis players.
    Just shows how the unscrupulous or uneducated will use statistics to make a
    point that fits THEIR agenda.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  22. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Maybe not, but he would likely beat your 3.5 game already, lol.
    Funny how you question credentials when you have none is
    training or game, : )
    Seems you in particular would avoid that point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Li Na is working to get more TS, but has not been known for it in the past.
    Seems her working to get more tends to be evidence of our point.
    Why do think she is looking to make these changes & hired Calos?
    Because she has the best WTA Fh, as toly says? hahaha
    I don't think she would be working to hit more modern if suresh and fFool were correct.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  24. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    If this does not show how confused toly is about tennis nothing can help you.
    He says she can't hit flat??? lol. but then...he gets way worse-
    He says she is inconsistent???
    Wozniacki has been one of the more consistent groundstrokers since maybe Evert
    or before and not only that, but held the #1 World ranking for a good period due
    completely to her consistency
    , having never gotten the gobs of points from
    winning a Major!

    Not just one year, but..."She finished the year as world no. 1 for the second consecutive year." wiki

    I'm not coming out for her in any way...just pointing out that her strokes and
    game are generally low in UEs and a MODEL of consistency....maybe even to
    a fault....but toly sees her as inconsistent and the high UE Li Na as consistent.
    His world is backwards like the sidespins he sees off the Fh.:)

    Even if he were not so wrong about her consistent WTA ranking, we are talking strokes,
    not rankings. She has tremendous consistency with her strokes as we ALL know.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  25. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I also think this information is unreliable.:(
     
  26. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I agree with you. SpeedMaster's stuff is usually interesting, but he really doesn't reference where and when his samples were obtained for that given chart. On the same page he shows spins for Roger on the practice court, but those don't necessarily carry over to what Roger does in a match as anyone who has seen Roger practice knows (he sometimes is super relaxed in a practice before a match).
     
  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    odd that toly would post data he believes is unreliable to make his point.
    Interesting move by one who claims to be an engineer.
     
  28. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Clijsters has some of the best TS on WTA ( and before you get way more confused,
    understand I said best TS...not most TS)
    and I guess you paid no attention to
    all the TS Shapova added to her game to win the last FO. You sound about as
    smart as the posters who said she would get killed if she lengthened the points
    because she didn't have the legs to play longer points. Then she went right out
    and won the FO a few weeks later by extending the points and using more TS.
    Yes, What a plummet that was, lol.
     
  29. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    "Traditional instruction" is the straw man you are constantly attacking in order to sell MTM. Who or what falls within the confines of traditional tennis, is constantly changing depending on the day and your mood. I didn't see Li Na out there using a wood racket hitting flat conti forehands with a low take-back. She has a modern finish on her forehand and can finish around her shoulder or around her hip depending on what type of shot she's hitting. What is it about her game that you perceive as being traditional? If its her great extension out towards her target, all the top ATP guys hit the same way.

    MTM has as much connection to modern tennis as Scientology does to science. How many champions have you developed with this system 5263? Maybe you should refrain from attacking real life tennis figures like Robert Lansdorp and Li Na, since with MTM, you will never achieve the same level of stratospheric success that they have achieved with their "traditional" methods.

    The irony of the situation is you sit around attacking real life tennis figures who have had far more of an impact on modern tennis than you could ever dream of. You say these people are traditional and don't understand the modern game. Clearly they understand it a lot better than you. They are actually a part of it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  30. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    hahaha,, Your definition is worse than I had expected.
     
  31. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    maybe if you would respond to the substance of my post I could take you seriously.
     
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    You trying to say your post had any substance?
    You accused my of attacking Li Na...I didnt
    You accused me of attacking RL, I don't really think I have unless you thought
    he was perfect
    And you seem to think Li Na hits just like top guys on ATP, lol
    Where is the substance?
     
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I would say leave the 70 year old guy alone and let him keep his hard-earned money for his twilight years. Just got back from a grueling 1.5 hour match with a retired guy in his 60s and just managed to squeak past him. He plays 4.0 league and ladder matches four times a week, no topspin, hard flat shots, great fitness, and wonderful court sense with a variety of sneaky drop shots. I was lucky to get past him. I think the edge I got was from the movement of the ball after bounce from topspin and sidespin, which seemed to catch him off balance and send his aggressive flat returns into the net. The topspin itself did not seem to bother him.

    What is needed at the club level is solid control of the ball, ability to put it where you want with reasonable precision, court sense and craftiness, non-chocking mentality, and fitness. No need for any fancy ineffective topspin by trying to pull back and up abruptly on the ball at contact instead of hitting through it.
     
  34. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    She hired "Calos" and not you or your leader. That is precisely the point LOL.
     
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Then maybe you should avoid doing that and even quit talking about it unless
    it something you are looking to learn more about it. Sorry, I don't know anyone
    to help you with it though, because you are the only one I hear speaking of that.
     
  36. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    And Carlos coaches very modern, regardless of where he got it...that is the point.
     
  37. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    What makes Li Na a traditional player? Sureshs's post was about a tennis magazine article about the extension and drive of her groundstrokes. You said she was a bad example because she was traditional. If good extension makes someone a traditional player, than most of the top guys on the ATP are traditional players.

    MTM fails again. MTM has as much connection to the modern game of tennis as Scientology does to science.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  38. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Get your quote of me correct and I might answer you, but I won't answer questions
    where I'm improperly quoted. I did not say what you misquote.
     
  39. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    5263 is in a bind. He was praising Tennis mag recently, and now he got trapped.

    Again, point is Macci is the one invited to write the article, Li Na has never heard of this methodology, and both have actually achieved something in what they do. That is a new concept to him, and since he doesn't have any student to point to, he has to try to poke holes in what others have achieved.
     
  40. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Exactly, and people should get it elsewhere too from proven coaches LOL not hacks with no record
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  41. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Thank you for showing how much info you misrepresent at the drop of a hat.

    Yes, I have spoke highly of tennis Mag's improvements and I stand firmly behind
    that, no bind and quite a silly comment about traps.
    So so weak. Your poor hand is always showing, but I guess you are stuck all in?
     
  42. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    Bingo! Right on the money. Maybe he'll trot out the old canard from the Oscar at Fair thread about how Djokovic's coach was a known reader of books, and he could have read Oscar's book, and Novak plays "modern tennis" so he must be a product of MTM.
     
  43. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ^^^ That was real entertainment. Sadly, those days are gone.
     
  44. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

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    5263, If you want I can also go quote ten posts where you talk about extension and traditional tennis. Why don't we just save ourselves some time. Federer has great extension towards his target on his groundstrokes just like Li Na. Is he traditional too?
     
  45. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    so as all can see, I didn't say Li Na was traditional, but stated she was MORE
    traditional, as in more than most pro players.

    Sorry, but either you have a short memory or were out that day, but we pretty
    much showed the pics and vid where it was cleared up that Fed does not hit
    out the target line past contact and clearly his racket has started moving across
    the contact as shown by the sidespin aspect of his swing.


    As to Li Na...I don't study her and don't have the vid to really say. I don't
    really care how she hits now as she is changing, WTA and erratic. If she wins
    a couple of slams and slows down the UEs in her avg match, then I might study
    her some. Even if she slows down on UEs in her avg match, then I'll look at
    her for you since she is your top model I guess. We can even do before and
    afters to see how much the change was and in what direction...if she cuts the
    High UEs.

    For anyone one who wades thru these guys and their "he said, she said" approach to
    tennis, They don't even realize there are book refs on classic/traditional instruction,
    along with even some book ref on modern strokes. These guys just
    shoot from the hip and what they heard from someone, stirring up their confusion.
    I just stay on topic best I can and stick to sources available to me. So really they
    aren't arguing with me but with book definitions. I stay in
    here for those of you who care to learn and improve...using their misconceptions
    as chance to show things that can be learned by those who study up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  46. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    In picture below Serena Williams is trying to hit flat FH winner. She hits the ball with a little topspin and practically with no useless sidespin.
    Here is original video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJg5cWEviZo.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Much improved Tennis mag same issue had another piece of instruction. Here the term used was to extend through the ball. And the pics showed across the body finish. It takes such explanations to make some people understand that the fast across the body finish of the pros masks the extension, when viewed on TV, and leads to mistaken teaching like whip the racket across the ball, pull the racket back at impact, etc.

    And yes, the author was formerly on the ATP tour, i.e., can actually play LOL.
     
  48. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    I don’t like a vague tennis terminology. It seems that nobody is able to explain clearly what exactly we should do to extend through the ball. Our joints are very good with rotational movement, but very bad with straight linear motion. IMO, we just have to rotate relevant parts of the body in synchronized manner and forget about across or through aspects. :confused:
     
  49. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Well, that is not what the pros and (proven) coaches are saying. We can certainly say that any joint is for rotational motion only because I have not heard of a part of a limb increasing in length, but I don't think that is helpful for these purposes. Rotational motion of connected parts can lead to linear motion (crank is an example). And the linear motion is only for a certain time and part of an overall swinging trajectory.
     
  50. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

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    Tennis forehand and straight linear motion

    In billiards they called straight linear stroke as “piston stroke”. http://billiards.colostate.edu/threa....html#pendulum.

    A "piston stroke" is one where you coordinate motion of both the elbow and the shoulder to keep the cue tip moving in a straight line during the entire stroke (just like a piston in the cylinder of an internal-combustion engine).

    I think this idea cannot be used successfully in tennis due to this motion is slow. See figure underneath.

    [​IMG]

    Maximum speed is around 13 mph. The instructor also was using the wrist to increase speed.

    In general, IMO, our body just cannot create very fast straight linear motions. That’s why, Federer and Nadal rotates straight arm before impact. I didn’t see any pro that can use straight linear motion before and during impact. Maybe you can provide some videos that support hitting through idea?:):confused:
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
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